Shopping list for new theatre

[notranati]

Hi guys we are currently re-fitting a school hall and turning it in to a working theatre with raised seats, control booth dressing rooms, front of house etc.
We have a pair of Zero 88 chilli dimmers which is controled through a jester 24-48 lighting board. We are looking to get some more lanterns. we currently have old point source profiles. par cans and freznels. I want to get some LED wash lanterns like the ETC fire and Ice and some moving heads. could any one give some advice on how to kit this space out and also should I get the patch bays put in the control room? how would you kit out a control booth if you had a blank canvas...
Cheers

[DanAyers]

Honestly,

Look at getting a good consultant.

Buying LED's is kind of a pain in the ass. Why? You can't believe any written documentation on them, some manufacturers tell the truth on some products, but much of it just isn't helpful.

Also reputable manufacturers make both good and crappy LED fixtures. Non-reptuable manufacturers do the same.

My suggestion is get demo units by Color Kinetics, PixelRange, and Elation. That's a low, medium & high budget solution for you. Try them out see if they work for your application. Get a Demo with ETC while you're at it. Don't buy ETC (or the others) because of the logo on the light, buy it because it's the most appropriate product for your application.

I'd recommend focusing on the console to start, you're going to eat up your 48 channels fast if you havn't already. Depending on your use check out (by that i mean demo) the ETC element, Ion, SmartFade (NOT ML), Road Hog, MA lite, and whatever the dealer wants to push that day. Some of what I just suggested will be too big for you, but that's ok.

Look at replacing your conventional with SourceFour fixtures. Definitely go ETC here. I say this since you mentioned displeasure with yours.

Take a look at SSRC they can make a custom patch bay at a reasonable price. Union Connector and Lex Products would probably be willing to make you one as well.

For moving lights I am a personal fan of Martin, Vari-lite on the high end, G-Lights on the low end and I haven't used Clay-Paky but they've had rock-solid reviews and the road guys seem to love them for the middle. They are also very light weight which is nice if you want to move them around often.

By the time you've done all that I bet you're out of money, if not you didn't buy enough fixtures.

I'd purchase in this order:
Console
Source-Four's
Patch-Bay (If 100% truely needed, keep in mind most consoles allow you to patch)
LED's
Moving Heads

Dan

[kiwitechgirl]

Read the Gafftaper Method (it's on this site - search for it) before you even THINK about buying moving lights. Get a decent stock of generics before considering toys, get some more dimmers, and if you do get toys, you'll probably need a new desk or you're going to run out of channels very fast. In terms of generics I'm a big fan of the Selecon gear - Acclaim fresnels and profiles (650w)for smaller spaces, Rama fresnels (1.2kw) and Pacific profiles (600w or 1000w) for bigger spaces. It's solid, it'll stand up to school abuse (it's in pretty much every school theatre in New Zealand, as well as being the baseline kit for every hire company as well!). Do the basics well, then worry about the flashy stuff.

Patchbays I always think should be wherever is most convenient; ours is in the dimmer room, which means it's out of the way yet accessible quickly if we have to get to it - we have a comms line in there so you can communicate with the designer/ME as you're flashing out and patching. In the control room is OK, but personally I don't like it as I just think it clutters things maybe unnecessarily.

[notranati]

Cheers guys, sound advice

I will look at your suggestions and get a some one in. I have a good relationship with white light in the UK they did the chilli installation for us and I trust what they say. I like the 'get the basics sorted first' approach from kiwitechgirl. Very wise, I guess we can sometimes get a bit excited about new toys...
will keep you informed

[shiben]

How much money do you have to spend? Doing all the seating in a "theatre" style can get super expensive super fast, as can building any physical renovations, such as installing a lighting grid or electrics (hiring engineers is expensive). How big is the space you intend to be in? If its small enough and you dont intend to do huge productions, you might not have to do too much physical renovation, perhaps consider making a "black box" style space, depending on resources, rather than a traditional space with a traditional control room and everything. How many lighting instruments do you have at the moment? Are they still in working order? If they still work, consider keeping them around and then begin augmenting them with ETC Source 4s or Selecon Pacifics (whichever is more common in your neck of the woods), and Selecon or Strand Fresnels, possibly some ETC PARs and PARNels (or any old PAR can would work too, the ETC ones are just very vesritile and work really well). Once you have enough lights to put maybe 6? lights on each area of the stage (thats just a basic setup that I usually start thinking in), start thinking about LEDs, and once you have enough Conventionals and LEDs to do shows without gear difficulties, buy a couple of MLs (if you need them). Just my 2¢

[museav]

When you say "we are currently re-fitting a school hall and turning it in to a working theatre" do you mean that you already have the related design and installation professionals onboard? There are probably going to be many issues that are life safety, mechanical, electrical, access, etc. related that likely require the input and services of such professionals. There is also likely going to have to be significant coordination between their efforts and any input that you provide.

One thing to consider with the control booth is who will be in there or have access. You may have some things you want easy access to at all times and others that you don't want everyone with booth access being able to access.

[notranati]

The space is already under construction so all I'm concerning myself with is lighting fixtures and the control booth. The seating, floor, walls and ceiling has already been decided. Unfortunately, being a school, the principle want's a space that can be used as a function room as well as a theatre so the 'black box' approach is out of the question. we are having an wooden floor which I will be laying a sub floor over the top when putting on productions. We're not having the conventional 'end on' raised stage.
Budget wise I'm not sure, we are quite afluent at the college and the principle has said price up what you want. The performance space is approx 60 square meters. The estate manager who is overseeing the re-fit has said the control room will only be 2 meters wide? I am fighting for this to be at least 3 meters so that we can get three people in there comfortably.
Cheers for your help guys

Also I need to know: can you run DMX, and audio in the same multi-core without getting interference?

[museav]

Also I need to know: can you run DMX, and audio in the same multi-core without getting interference?

That may depend on what audio you are referencing (line level, mic level or speaker level). In addition, a cable with multiple, individually twisted and shielded pairs could be quite different than a simple multi-conductor bundled cable.

On the booth, what do you envision being in the booth and how might it be used? If you may at some point want sound, lighting, video/projection and the SM in the booth then it needs to accommodate all those people along with any equipment and work space related to their functions. If sound is always out in the house and the SM at the stage, then the functional and space requirements would be less.

Since the space is already under construction, another factor could be any equipment planned for the booth. For example, finding out that the booth is also the planned location for much of the audio system equipment could certainly affect the booth.

[notranati]

The multi core would contain all three... I want sends and returns from and to the control booth, also the option to have monitors for any musicians that are on stage.

The booth needs to hold at least three, Sound op, lighting op and DSM. Looking at the plans which I got this morning, we have just under 3 meters in width and two meters in depth so it will be tight. I am going to ask if we can extend the width by at least another meter. We have room underneath the booth where I can store the amps, dimmer racks, etc to help keep space to a minimum.

[museav]

The multi core would contain all three... I want sends and returns from and to the control booth, also the option to have monitors for any musicians that are on stage.

That is not unusual for portable systems but installed systems would typically separate speaker signals, if not also separating mic and line. Also consider that most installed systems are intended to last some time, if you use multi-core what happens if a pair in the cable fails? Do you repull an entirely new multi-core or initially oversize the cable to have spare pairs for each signal type? Might 'not putting all your eggs in one basket' with a single cable offer some long term advantages?

We have room underneath the booth where I can store the amps, dimmer racks, etc to help keep space to a minimum.

I think this goes to the core of some issues, it sounds like what has been planned to date may have a major bearing on what is practical. You may have space under the booth for dimmers, but locating them there likely has other implications so it may become a matter of whether that is what has been planned and if it is practical to locate them there. The same applies to the cabling questions, running a large multi-core cable may require large conduit, breakouts to multiple termination points, etc., is that feasible with what is planned?

[notranati]

I guess what has been planned I'm not privy to. I just tell them what I want and they say if I can have it.

Unfortunately there is no other space for the dimmers to go Either in the booth or bellow it!

What kind of problems do you see this position posing? are we talking about during production if there is a problem?

As for the multi-core we have decided to run a basket for it at high level so it it sits away from any power or cables the might cause interference. I'm going to run 12 returns from the stage to the mixer and 6 sends (mic level) I have DI Boxes for line level So I'm going to leave it like that. I also want to run a pair of Speak-ons for use in monitoring, and a pair of phonos for cd/tape in. I will run DMX in a separate cable as I want it coming back to the booth in a different position.
Any suggestions?

Also I have been looking at projection. For example:
DL.2 Digital Light - Digital Lighting - Products - High End Systems
or
Barco | Events | Barco?s digital moving luminaire tears down boundaries between projection and lighting

cheers guys.

[museav]

I guess what has been planned I'm not privy to. I just tell them what I want and they say if I can have it.

So how are they developing the design and who is providing any initial input into the theatre aspects?

Unfortunately there is no other space for the dimmers to go Either in the booth or bellow it!

What kind of problems do you see this position posing? are we talking about during production if there is a problem?

I'm not familiar with all the requirements there but I assume it is much like here where being an "electrical room" entails a number of code mandated requirements for access and life safety. There could also be issues such as coordinating the electrical service and runs into and out of the space. The main point is that most of these issues can probably be addressed if accounted for in the initial design but the location of the dimmers likely has to be designed for that purpose.

As for the multi-core we have decided to run a basket for it at high level so it it sits away from any power or cables the might cause interference. I'm going to run 12 returns from the stage to the mixer and 6 sends (mic level) I have DI Boxes for line level So I'm going to leave it like that. I also want to run a pair of Speak-ons for use in monitoring, and a pair of phonos for cd/tape in.

Perhaps some terminology issues here as "sends" would typically be signals going to the console with "returns" being from the console and "tie lines" being bi-directional and able to be used as a send or return. However, I don't know of many theatres where having all the connectivity at one point works well, you typically see sends and returns distributed around the space. I might also think about getting a DI or interface for the CD/Tape in rather than running dedicated lines.

Having everything (mic, line and speaker) in one cable also goes back to the question of where the equipment is to which the cable connects. The mic and line signals probably run to the mixing console, if the speaker cable is part of the same 'multi-core' does that also mean that all the amps and processing related to that signal will be in the same location as the mixing console? If not, how do you break them out and run them somewhere else or might they be better off to just be separate in the first place?

Maybe this gets into the more general issue of just how you plan on using the space. You mentioned it being used as both a theatre and a function space. You initially noted raised seating but later mentioned not having a permanent stage. You seemed to believe that the 'function space' requirement prohibited a black box approach when in my experience that is actually a pretty common approach, the function space requirements often mean having no permanent stage or seating which then lends itself to somewhat of a back box approach. So I don't think it is real clear just what you plan to do or how you envision using the space and it seems that should be defined before getting into any specifics. For example, do you have a defined stage and audience area? Is the lighting, audio, etc. expected to support both the theatrical and function space uses? Are they expecting to be able to support many events without a lot of setup or a lighting and sound operator?

I also wanted to confirm the size of the space. You commented that "The performance space is approx 60 square meters" and that is only about 646 square feet. Is that the stage space or the entire space?

Also I have been looking at projection. For example:
DL.2 Digital Light - Digital Lighting - Products - High End Systems
or
Barco | Events | Barco?s digital moving luminaire tears down boundaries between projection and lighting

The DL.2 has been discontinued for some time now, the DL.3 is the current version, however this also seems to potentially go back to the intended use. The DL.3 is an interesting concept but a bit awkward and very expensive if you're primarily using it as a 1024x768 resolution video projector. Without knowing what you are trying to do it is impossible to tell if something like the DL.3 is a good solution or a poor one.

[notranati]

firstly, thank you for your responses. Sorry about the terminology I keep getting that the wrong way around...

We do need some one like yourself to come in and give advice wich I have asked for but it never happens, so I am being asked instead (and as you can see I can't even get sends and returns right!!!!)

any hoo... we will be having re-tractable seating and a performance area that is aprox 60 square feet, the whole room is about 2.5 times that. it's one big rectangle basically.
the room bellow the booth can be locked and have limited access for H&S purposes. The whole space is part of a completely new complex so the runs and fuse boxes and ring mains (if that's what you mean) can be built around this instalation.

I like the thought of having send and returns dotted around the space it would make much more sense that way and add tons more versatility. I will then keep the wires separate.

The powers that be want to use the space as a marketing tool! to hold functions in as well as using it as an educational theatre.
I will tell them again to get a consultant in
Cheers
museav