Automated Fixtures Scrollers vs. LED PARs

Hey All,

At our regional theater, we are at a juncture where our aging Chroma-Q scroller stock are failing us more and more frequently as they are mostly the Chroma-Q Mark II dating from 1998. Since we exclusively use our scrollers in Source 4 PAR MFL units, I have been considering switching us to LED PARs and have found a unit that I am very pleased with - The Chauvet ColorDash PAR Quad 18.

We recently were able to demo a unit in-house for a couple of days, and found that it was much brighter than a S4 PAR 750W for almost every color that we tried. The beam, while round, was also of a similar size to a Medium PAR. So for us, intensity and beam size are not an issue. The cost difference between replacing our scrollers with new Chroma-Q Plus units vs. buying LED units is not very drastic, especially considering that we will be able to recoup some of our costs by selling our power supplies, data cables, and newer scrollers.

Has anyone on here used these Chauvet units and have any comments either for or against them? What I am really looking for is critiques from practical experience with their failure rate, ease of programming, quirks in how they function, hilation, dimming, etc. I would love to move us onto newer and more flexible technology, but I am also concerned that the technology might still not quite be there yet...

Any and all thoughts or comments would be helpful.

Many Thanks,

Tom

I have not used this fixture, but spec-wise, some good points are convection cooling (probably a lot quieter than your scrollers) and 16-bit dimming. One bad point.... no accessory holders for hats or baffles to reduce glare. Need would depend on your mounting positions versus audience sightlines but I have found this to be a problem with most LED fixtures. Will probably use up a lot more channels than your scrollers.

Should have mentioned that microstar. Actually, although they are not pictured, the units do come with accessory tabs, and there are optional barn doors that can be bought for them. So, some spill control is possible. Especially off of borders which is one of my big concerns.

I'm a big fan of ETC Desire 40 series. The full color range, no fan, PAR body and lots of fiddly adjustments just can't be beat. OK more money but you get what you pay for...

RickR. You should look at this Chauvet unit sometime. We actually did an in-house demo of this unit against an ETC D40, a S4 PAR MFL, and a couple of other LED fixtures. The D40 was the weakest unit. That coupled with the fact that it used individually colored LEDs instead of 4-in-1 or 5-in-1 leds (which causes multicolored shadows) made me unplug it and forget about it. It was also harder to get a close match to a gel we had in the incandescent fixture than the Chauvet. The sales rep who did the demo for us and myself were very surprised. We too had assumed that because it was an ETC unit (and 3X more expensive), it would be the better unit. Not so. Just because it has the ETC stamp and is more expensive does not mean it is the better unit! Thanks for the feedback though.

Note: I am not knocking the D40 completely out of hand. If you are happy with it, that is all that matters. For us, we are looking for a unit that will meet or exceed the punch of a S4 PAR MFL 750W from a 25'-30' trim height. The Chauvet unit exceeded that. The D20 didn't even come close.

Tonight I ran a gig with these as front lights for a small festival and they were ok. There were 12 on a medium sized pop up stage. When the gig was over they used the stage's 4 halogen par cans and to my eyes, the halogens were brighter than the LEDs in terms of white, but the LEDs were better at the saturated colors. I wasn't able to find a good front light white I was happy with, but it was OK for the bands.

LDGuy said:

RickR. You should look at this Chauvet unit sometime. We actually did an in-house demo of this unit against an ETC D40, a S4 PAR MFL, and a couple of other LED fixtures. The D40 was the weakest unit. That coupled with the fact that it used individually colored LEDs instead of 4-in-1 or 5-in-1 leds (which causes multicolored shadows) made me unplug it and forget about it. It was also harder to get a close match to a gel we had in the incandescent fixture than the Chauvet. The sales rep who did the demo for us and myself were very surprised. We too had assumed that because it was an ETC unit (and 3X more expensive), it would be the better unit. Not so. Just because it has the ETC stamp and is more expensive does not mean it is the better unit! Thanks for the feedback though.

Note: I am not knocking the D40 completely out of hand. If you are happy with it, that is all that matters. For us, we are looking for a unit that will meet or exceed the punch of a S4 PAR MFL 750W from a 25'-30' trim height. The Chauvet unit exceeded that. The D20 didn't even come close.

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The Chauvet unit is 1210 lux at 5 meters. The D40 is 2742 lux at 6.1 meters. I would be interested to know what mode the D40 was in and which lens was used. Physics says the D40 will always be brighter. I've never noticed any multicolor shadows, even without a lens.

For me, the question of LED is more purpose driven. Lets' face it, LEDs have come a long ways. There is only one application where I would say stick with conventional scrollers, and that is front lighting. The broad bandwidth and full spectrum of incandescent lighting still cannot be beat for facial lighting. Even in that position, LEDs have come a long way! Still, the subtle shades of white are the weak point for LEDs, just as dramatic colors are the weak point for conventional fixtures.

Thanks for the points about the front light guys. Not an issue for us as we always use our scrollers for sidelight, toplight, or backlight color washes in our proscenium theater. Never for frontlight, so real good F/L color is not a dealbreaker. Tex: Good point. Actually don't know what mode. I will have to ask the sales rep who ran the demo. Since it was the most expensive unit, and would give them the best commission on a sale, I would assume that they would have had it set to be its brightest.

As to Lux/Meter, I don't always take a lot of stock in it since it is so hard to define it and accurately compare from unit to unit. As an industry they are slowly getting there with it though.

Thanks again for all the feedback!

I would also suggest looking at the Apollo Multiform Pars. We have 15 of the RGB in our larger theatre, and the punch is great. The really do outshine our sidelight and frontlight scrollers. As has been said, the saturates are phenomenal. It takes 4 750 S4's in L181 or R59 to get the same punch as the LED for the deep blue. I am not really crazy about the beamage with haze, but it's well worth the tradeoff. The pastels aren't great, but the full mix of all three actually produces a nice daylight color that the dance designers really like. I do wish we had purchased the RGBAW, I miss the amber as it is one of my most used Backlight colors, and the tradeoff of losing the other LEDs isn't huge, as they are so bright. I do accompany the LEDs with a S4 par system with R22, and I can actually sort of color mix in the amber. It's not optimal, but it works, and I do like starting with just the Amber, then being able to bring in the dark blue during a dance. It's very powerful. I especially like the blue LEDs. They are very saturated, and it is definitely the strongest color. The red LEDs aren't that saturated I feel. But overall, they are a great fixture, at a superb price.

LDGuy said:

Thanks for the points about the front light guys. Not an issue for us as we always use our scrollers for sidelight, toplight, or backlight color washes in our proscenium theater. Never for frontlight, so real good F/L color is not a dealbreaker. Tex: Good point. Actually don't know what mode. I will have to ask the sales rep who ran the demo. Since it was the most expensive unit, and would give them the best commission on a sale, I would assume that they would have had it set to be its brightest.

As to Lux/Meter, I don't always take a lot of stock in it since it is so hard to define it and accurately compare from unit to unit. As an industry they are slowly getting there with it though.

Thanks again for all the feedback!

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You're right. To accurately compare the lux/meter measurements, we would need to know which lens the D40 was using. To compare the lux of a Chauvet unit which has an 18 degree beam angle to a D40 with any of the lenses installed would not be accurate.

Having attended ETC's "Layers of Light" given by Tom Littrell at the NYC office, this past Tusday, I would no longer hesitate to use the Selador line for face lighting.

The new LED series 2 Lustr unit lives up to the hype and produces tints and saturatiions as well as the S4 Fresnel they demo'd using a color scroller. They also had the Lustr 2 series ellipsoidal side-by-side with a standard HPL S4 ellipsoidal and I was impressed.

Not cheap but the color rendition is finally there.

LDGuy said:

As to Lux/Meter, I don't always take a lot of stock in it since it is so hard to define it and accurately compare from unit to unit. As an industry they are slowly getting there with it though.

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I place great stock in accurate measurements. But yes, the entertainment industry can learn a few things from architectural photometrics. It's the human vision that is variable and dependent on conditions, including environmental and previous experience. The numbers substitute for side by side, if you understand what they mean. True side by sides can also be swayed. (evil intentions not required!) I find over the long run that science consistently gives the best answer.

There is a lot to consider when turning to a new paradigm. Priorities and usages vary even with the old stuff. And $ really matter!

As for matching gel color, just look it up, either the app or try an ETC console gel picker. I think there is also a spreadsheet with the raw DMX values. The hard work is done!

Hey Tom,

Do you have the chance to get a new console too or just the LED's (or have you already since I moved away). I ended up getting stuck with the COLORado quads last year just before our last summer show opened and had to retrofit them into the other shows that had opened. Not what we had proposed but luckily some S4 Par lenses helped spread the beam out more. Anyways, I found them to be just a be a little bit poppy when fading up so I set up a custom dimmer curve to make them start fading up at 7% and that did the trick. I'd assume it would have been far more obvious without diffusion though. However, with that being said, I was extremely happy with how they matched what I had done previously considering that the shows opened with two systems of S4 PARnels and ended with 1 system of these.

Bryan

RickR said:

I place great stock in accurate measurements. But yes, the entertainment industry can learn a few things from architectural photometrics. It's the human vision that is variable and dependent on conditions, including environmental and previous experience. The numbers substitute for side by side, if you understand what they mean. True side by sides can also be swayed. (evil intentions not required!) I find over the long run that science consistently gives the best answer.

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I saw a very interesting talk at USITT about trying to get photometrics for LED fixtures. If we are talking about color mixing units, there are enough issues that it is not surprising the numbers aren't there.

There is some debate about how we perceive blue light. The standard curves that light meters use are not accurate down there.

The spikiness of LRD emitters throw the meters off. In one case we saw an 80% difference in intensity between a couple of reputable meters measuring the same output.

JChenault said:

I saw a very interesting talk at USITT about trying to get photometrics for LED fixtures. If we are talking about color mixing units, there are enough issues that it is not surprising the numbers aren't there.

There is some debate about how we perceive blue light. The standard curves that light meters use are not accurate down there.

The spikiness of LRD emitters throw the meters off. In one case we saw an 80% difference in intensity between a couple of reputable meters measuring the same output.

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Good comments John, but shouldn't the metric be "What do our eyes see ?" or "What does the camera see ?'.

The assorted meters are used to get a handle on what the fixtures are "physically" capable of achieving, but ultimately it comes down to do we (the eye) like the look. Or does the camera ?.

This is why I liked what my eyes saw at the ETC demo. Could it have partially been magic ? - I.E. controlled conditions to show the best features of a product ?. Sure, but as well we were seeing the comparison to a known product, the HPL lamp in an ellipsoidal and a fresnel. Thus it wasn't all smoke and mirrors, it was a demo in which we could do a comparison. I liked very much what I saw and wished like hell we could change the spec's for our space being built to dump all the dimmers and do an all LED rig.

And on that note, I received today some new toy's, somewhat relevant to the OP, 9 Martin MAC Aura's. To be used as our primary R&R/variety act back light, to replace having to focus 2 electrics and 46 units.

SteveB said:

Good comments John, but shouldn't the metric be "What do our eyes see ?" or "What does the camera see ?'.

The assorted meters are used to get a handle on what the fixtures are "physically" capable of achieving, but ultimately it comes down to do we (the eye) like the look. Or does the camera ?.

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I completely agree that the metric should what our eyes see. My point(s) were

- the metrics that we use (Lumens) probably do not match what we see in LED fixtures, especially in yhe blue end of the spectrum
- there is a dearth of equipment that CAN accurately measure these things accurately. You nerd a spectrometer, not a light meter.

Ie most assorted meters cannot be used to get a handle on what a fixture is capable of, so you MUST use your eye as the primary tool.

np18358 said:

I would also suggest looking at the Apollo Multiform Pars. We have 15 of the RGB in our larger theatre, and the punch is great. The really do outshine our sidelight and frontlight scrollers. As has been said, the saturates are phenomenal. It takes 4 750 S4's in L181 or R59 to get the same punch as the LED for the deep blue. I am not really crazy about the beamage with haze, but it's well worth the tradeoff. The pastels aren't great, but the full mix of all three actually produces a nice daylight color that the dance designers really like. I do wish we had purchased the RGBAW, I miss the amber as it is one of my most used Backlight colors, and the tradeoff of losing the other LEDs isn't huge, as they are so bright. I do accompany the LEDs with a S4 par system with R22, and I can actually sort of color mix in the amber. It's not optimal, but it works, and I do like starting with just the Amber, then being able to bring in the dark blue during a dance. It's very powerful. I especially like the blue LEDs. They are very saturated, and it is definitely the strongest color. The red LEDs aren't that saturated I feel. But overall, they are a great fixture, at a superb price.

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Thanks for the update regarding the Multiform RGB units np18358, as these have been selling pretty consistently. The RGBAW unit has perhaps seen more use within the theatre market than the RGB for color-mixing reasons previously stated, but each fixture has been solid in providing punch and value. Convection cooling is also a plus for these RGB and RGBAW fixtures as fan noise is non-existent.

JChenault said:

I completely agree that the metric should what our eyes see. My point(s) were

- the metrics that we use (Lumens) probably do not match what we see in LED fixtures, especially in yhe blue end of the spectrum
- there is a dearth of equipment that CAN accurately measure these things accurately. You nerd a spectrometer, not a light meter.

Ie most assorted meters cannot be used to get a handle on what a fixture is capable of, so you MUST use your eye as the primary tool.

Click to expand...

While I agree there are issues in metering I also hold there are bigger issues in perception. Brightness and color are entirely relative to the surrounding field, including what you previously looked at. Read up on brightness perception. My main point is that I can reliably compare 2 sets of numbers if they are carefully done, but not 2 sets of perceptions. There are too many variables!

bdkdesigns said:

Hey Tom,

Do you have the chance to get a new console too or just the LED's (or have you already since I moved away). I ended up getting stuck with the COLORado quads last year just before our last summer show opened and had to retrofit them into the other shows that had opened. Not what we had proposed but luckily some S4 Par lenses helped spread the beam out more. Anyways, I found them to be just a be a little bit poppy when fading up so I set up a custom dimmer curve to make them start fading up at 7% and that did the trick. I'd assume it would have been far more obvious without diffusion though. However, with that being said, I was extremely happy with how they matched what I had done previously considering that the shows opened with two systems of S4 PARnels and ended with 1 system of these.

Bryan

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Bryan,

No new console until we get our capital expense campaign kicked off in a year or two. We are just looking to replace the scrollers for now as they are failing more and more. Including one that caught on fire! These are so old, that I fear the capacitors are drying out and causing erratic behavior and shorts on the boards. So, this is why I am looking at the LED option right now. If we are spending the money to replace these, then whatever we choose, be it an LED unit, or a brand new Chroma-Q is what we will be stuck with for the next ten to fifteen years. That is also why I am looking at the pro line of Chauvet units as their price is similar to replacing the Chroma-Qs with new units. The big unknown is how much longer will the industry keep making and supporting scrollers since so many people now are using LEDs.

I AM considering just buying the new scrollers and then sell them when we get our new board and wrap in LED units into the board purchase. But again, how much will I get back even in a few years on color scrollers?

Which CoOLORado unit did you use, and what was the punch like on them? As I mentioned previously, these would be replacing Source 4 PAR 750 MFL units with scrollers.

Many Thanks,

Tom