Hello, I am currently the student TD at our high school, and there has been talks about getting our lighting system replaced. It is currently an old hub electrics system from the 70's. So the proposal finally came through today, and I was asked to stop by to take a look. It has 12 Led ERS, 12 Led pars, and a new console. I expressed my concern about the current conventional lights, and our use of specials so they said they would add a portable dimmer rack for those. My thing is we now have over 150 circuits that would be wasted and another 30 or more lights that we would no longer be able to use effectively. I called my mentor, and he was just as concerned, and said he would get in touch with my director. He also stated that the other problem would be no one knowing how to use DMX. I personally have little experience with DMX. I want to hear from others about their thoughts and feelings on this. Additional information our stage is about 50' wide and 30' deep. For any other information on the facility feel free to ask.
Worries about a new system proposal for our high school.
- Thread starterAndrew738
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While renovations and LED/DMX integration is great, you shouldn't completely scrap the old system. The word "integration" is key here - you don't have to start form square one.
This proposal is certainly troubling. It sounds like you won't have enough power to fully light the stage, and then you'll have fully functional gear collecting dust while the director whines about the stage being too dim. The stage at my school is also 50' by 30' and we use close to 150 fixtures, both LED and tungsten, just for a rep plot. There is no way that you're going to adequately light that stage with 24 led fixtures. You either need to buy more or buy a permanent dimmer rack. No packs.
Do you know what fixtures specifically you're getting? The manufacturer/product line of the fixtures will make a huge difference in what you're going to get out of them, and buying cheap fixtures will make this situation even worse. Also, what console? I'm guessing it'll be an ETC EOS Family console, as those are popular with high schools, I use one at my school. I would highly recommend ETC, very easy to learn.
The fact that you guys are ditching all your conventionals breaks my heart. IMO, Leds need to be complimented with some incandescent light. Instead of portable dimmer packs - cause they're a pain in the ass - ask them for a small Sensor+ rack from ETC. You can get a 48 dimmer rack that you can just put in place and use the existing circuits/power supply from the old system. It really would be a shame to have 150 unused circuits.
Don't be scared of DMX though, once you learn the basics, you'll be able to set up your system fairly easily.
If I were you, I'd definitely fight this proposal as it is in its current form. Don't get me wrong, the addition of all these fixtures would be great, but you can't scrap the rest of the theater, you know?
Good luck.
This proposal is certainly troubling. It sounds like you won't have enough power to fully light the stage, and then you'll have fully functional gear collecting dust while the director whines about the stage being too dim. The stage at my school is also 50' by 30' and we use close to 150 fixtures, both LED and tungsten, just for a rep plot. There is no way that you're going to adequately light that stage with 24 led fixtures. You either need to buy more or buy a permanent dimmer rack. No packs.
Do you know what fixtures specifically you're getting? The manufacturer/product line of the fixtures will make a huge difference in what you're going to get out of them, and buying cheap fixtures will make this situation even worse. Also, what console? I'm guessing it'll be an ETC EOS Family console, as those are popular with high schools, I use one at my school. I would highly recommend ETC, very easy to learn.
The fact that you guys are ditching all your conventionals breaks my heart. IMO, Leds need to be complimented with some incandescent light. Instead of portable dimmer packs - cause they're a pain in the ass - ask them for a small Sensor+ rack from ETC. You can get a 48 dimmer rack that you can just put in place and use the existing circuits/power supply from the old system. It really would be a shame to have 150 unused circuits.
Don't be scared of DMX though, once you learn the basics, you'll be able to set up your system fairly easily.
If I were you, I'd definitely fight this proposal as it is in its current form. Don't get me wrong, the addition of all these fixtures would be great, but you can't scrap the rest of the theater, you know?
Good luck.
Scenemaster60
Well-Known Member
How many conventionals do you own and use on a regular basis now? You say you have 150 circuits and 30 lights that would be wasted. Does that mean you are using 180 conventionals right now? If so, that is an impressive inventory! If that is really the case, there is not much to be done, sorry. Endure and move on to bigger and better things in the next few years.
If the portable rack will support the existing conventionals, that is whole different story.
Who did the plan? Whose LEDs are being specced? Lots of questions not answered here.
If the portable rack will support the existing conventionals, that is whole different story.
Who did the plan? Whose LEDs are being specced? Lots of questions not answered here.
We have a total of 150 circuits. We currently actively use 15 Source 4s on our cat, and another 16 Source 4 pars on 2 of our electrics. We also used to use 6 cycs from lee on our 3rd electric. We also use 3 sets of 50 ft strip lights for our down light. The plan was from some group I haven't heard of I'll have to get the name of the company in the morning when I get back in. I'm not opposed to the integration of Led, and we might as well learn DMX at some point. They gave us little to no information on where the numbers were coming from outside of how much money was being used for what.
lwinters630
Well-Known Member
Keep the old and add the LED's. The proposal package is not enough to light the stage. Ask them for 30 LED elation pars to replace strip lights, 6 vivid R 42" CYC lights and an ETC element console and a 2 sensor racks to replace the old dimmers. Now you have a workable system
Fear Not. I am not sure what board you have now but it is probably DMX if it looks like a 5 pin mic cable. If you can count from 1 to 512 you can do dmx. Does you current board soft patch or do you actually have to plug in like an old telephone operator. Also you will need to learn DMX as almost everything is using dmx.
LED will need Non dim circuits.
Keep in mind updating a entire lighting system is not as simple as one thinks.
Les
Well-Known Member
I think what @Footer was asking was exactly what in the system was made by Hub - which you answered. We do know who Hub is/was
. There should be some documentation somewhere here on the site but it sounds like that is not the main focus so we'll save it for another discussion. One question that should be asked is what type of entity is spec'ing this system? It sounds to me like it is a sales/retail company and what you need is a turn-key consultation/systems design company.
It was some technology group being brought in by the school. They just happened to have someone with some level of knowledge in sound and lighting on hand from how it sounded. I managed to talk with the guy for a little bit, but it was very short. We were going to try, and have one of our alumnus who is a TDT student stop in and talk with him. I gave him a call after meeting with the representative.
Hub made a lot of different systems. They made systems that look like this:
and systems that look like this:
Either way... minus the copper in the walls the system is a total loss. Nothing from it can be salvaged. It is way past its usefull life and keeping it running is burning money. LED lighting is expensive to buy but cheap to installl. That is the reason the company is pushing for it. Is it enough gear to cover your stage in light? Yes. Is it enough gear to design a musical around? No. Before you go specing gear you first need to work out what you need the gear to achieve. I would probably start with a baseline... what you can do now with the current system in place? What can the system not do that you would like to do better? From there a system can be designed to meet or exceed that spec. Don't come here looking for us to tell you what specific gear you need... only someone on the floor can answer that. What we can do is guide you to ensure you know what to look for in a system.
So, lets start out with... what can your current system do now? What is the proposed system speced to do?
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
The proposal has little to no information which is one of the most concerning parts. Led pars $700 per fixture is not very descriptive. I have managed to narrow down potential fixtures through that. As is they want to replace our current ETC Element for no apparent reason. An when I inquired on it they said it couldn't handle it. I don't get it because the console has 2 universes of DMX.
Hub Electric Company also made "modern" (for the 1970s anyway) SCR analog dimmers. It's possible that with a DMX-to-analog converter the dimmers could listen to DMX512.
Is the Element currently controlling the HUB dimmers? How?
As others have said, I'd hate to see the existing infrastructure (150 circuits) go to waste, provided it is electrically sound. Perhaps the most prudent approach would be to remove the dimmer rack and patch panel, and replace with a DPC modern dimmer rack with swappable modules to allow for LED "hot power" circuits. If it's time for a complete renovation including pulling new wire, it's probably best to install all hot circuits with single Bak-Pak or SourceFour dimmer s for the existing conventionals. And also, as said above, a data distribution system, be that DMX and opto-isolator s, or a lighting network and node s.
Sounds like the "consultant" is proposing an ill-fated "band-aid" solution.
so this proposal is coming from a vendor? Can "they" provide a way to integrated control of the LED fixtures with the existing dimmers? Any further detail or description of your current system would be helpful, Photos would be great!
You say that you have a patch bay. That implies that you have dimmers that with a converter could be controlled by DMX512
DMX can control up to 512 addresses a second universe adds another block of 512 addresses if you need them.
You say that you have a patch bay. That implies that you have dimmers that with a converter could be controlled by DMX512
DMX can control up to 512 addresses a second universe adds another block of 512 addresses if you need them.
JD
Well-Known Member
Hub actually continued building dimmers up into the late 80's or 90's. As I mentioned in another thread, we have 18 of the 3.6kw modules in use in our house light system. The modules look very well built and they have been in 24/7 use since the install in 1989. The only odd things is the control voltage, which appears to be 0-24 as compared to the old analog standard of 0-10. Assuming they are what you have, getting a DMX to analog interface and keeping the dimmers would be my suggestion.
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