Best Moving Heads
- Thread starterDTaxon
- Start date
LightingGuy89
Member
I think the best place to start with this is to figure out your purpose and what properties of light you are looking for.
You can break it down simply (there are other ways to break this down) to the following sub groups, the same way you would a conventional:
-Profiles
-Spots
-Beams
-Washes
Within this, what color tempurture are you looking for; so what lamp type are you looking for? Xenon, Tungsten, Arc, LED etc...
What are your power restrictions? Do you need FX such as prisms, beam splitter, iris, shutters/blades (to name a few)
Do you want a color wheel with fixed color choices or a more versatile CMY or RGB mixing engine.
What is your price point?
Are they for a fixed installation or to be re-plotted/toured?
This thread will start to shape into a more helpful resource for you if you can answer any/all of the above questions. And that's just a starting point for topic discussion. Then, we will all start to tell you what we prefer, what we've used, what the newest products are. There are (and this is a personal opinion) manufacturers that you shouldn't buy from because the quality control and technical support for their products are usually not very good. Others will have different opinions as well.
I'm excited to see where this conversation will go over the next few days.
-B
You can break it down simply (there are other ways to break this down) to the following sub groups, the same way you would a conventional:
-Profiles
-Spots
-Beams
-Washes
Within this, what color tempurture are you looking for; so what lamp type are you looking for? Xenon, Tungsten, Arc, LED etc...
What are your power restrictions? Do you need FX such as prisms, beam splitter, iris, shutters/blades (to name a few)
Do you want a color wheel with fixed color choices or a more versatile CMY or RGB mixing engine.
What is your price point?
Are they for a fixed installation or to be re-plotted/toured?
This thread will start to shape into a more helpful resource for you if you can answer any/all of the above questions. And that's just a starting point for topic discussion. Then, we will all start to tell you what we prefer, what we've used, what the newest products are. There are (and this is a personal opinion) manufacturers that you shouldn't buy from because the quality control and technical support for their products are usually not very good. Others will have different opinions as well.
I'm excited to see where this conversation will go over the next few days.
-B
Not sure you're going to get many replies as it takes a lot of research at assorted websites of the various manufacturers to generate a list that meets your criteria (and who has the time for that ?), which of course is something you need to do anyway.
I like Martin gear. I have MAC 700 profiles as well as MAC Aura moving head LED"s. I've head zero problems. I researched with a friend who's a top GrandMA programmer and that was what he indicated was the most reliable. From your description, Martin likely doesn't make anything in your price range, neither does Vari-Lite or High End and probably not Robe. Elation, Chauvet and a slew of others probably, but once you ask for a lot of features combined with a low price (and $2500 per fixture is a low price) you don't get good, you get cheap and I don't buy cheap thus cannot recommend it.
What you are looking for is that magic tipping point of good enough, yet with decent features. I don't know anybody making an LED engine in your price range. As far as I can tell, it's cheaper to make a fixture with a standard 575, 700 or 1200 watt arc lamp, then to make it with an LED light source, thus you are fighting that.
I like Martin gear. I have MAC 700 profiles as well as MAC Aura moving head LED"s. I've head zero problems. I researched with a friend who's a top GrandMA programmer and that was what he indicated was the most reliable. From your description, Martin likely doesn't make anything in your price range, neither does Vari-Lite or High End and probably not Robe. Elation, Chauvet and a slew of others probably, but once you ask for a lot of features combined with a low price (and $2500 per fixture is a low price) you don't get good, you get cheap and I don't buy cheap thus cannot recommend it.
What you are looking for is that magic tipping point of good enough, yet with decent features. I don't know anybody making an LED engine in your price range. As far as I can tell, it's cheaper to make a fixture with a standard 575, 700 or 1200 watt arc lamp, then to make it with an LED light source, thus you are fighting that.
Bubby4j
Active Member
One thing to think about, calculate how much you'd save by not having to replace lamps. You might be able to convince higher-ups to make your budget a little higher for LEDs if you can show them some numbers. Arc lamps are expensive.
Can you provide more information on your fixed installation? Is it a theatre, bar, church, arena, roller derby rink? What sort of performances would these lights be used for? Does noise matter? Are there any other existing conventional fixtures these need to blend with or cut through? There's just not enough information to point you in the right direction.
BillESC
Well-Known Member
Very true. A Robe Robin DLX Spot, LED profile unit, has web prices in the $9,000 range. Robe states it has equivalent brightness to a 1200 watt discharge lamp, which is typically a fixture requiring 208 volts. That alone would make a Robe (or similar LED head) a no brainer in terms of savings on not having to setup a 3 phase power distro. The LED head is a 20,000 hr life system, and would also allow significant savings in discharge lamp purchases. Expensive stuff though....
However, this marketing claim doesn't hold up in a live demo.
JChenault
Well-Known Member
I would suggest clarifying something else before you start talking manufacturers and model numbers.
What is the purpose of the movers?
Are you wanting to do theatrical productions where the moving light blends and fills in with your fixed units?
Are you doing theatre work where you wasn't the mover to stand out and cut through your fixed units?
Rock and roll with lots of haze in the air and moving beams for the band
A club where the audience is bring lit by the lights
A small venue where the unclothed dancer is two feet from the patron.
Etc
Then you get into questions about power, throw distance, etc.
So to that OP - Tell us a bit more about what you hope to accomplish, etc.
What is the purpose of the movers?
Are you wanting to do theatrical productions where the moving light blends and fills in with your fixed units?
Are you doing theatre work where you wasn't the mover to stand out and cut through your fixed units?
Rock and roll with lots of haze in the air and moving beams for the band
A club where the audience is bring lit by the lights
A small venue where the unclothed dancer is two feet from the patron.
Etc
Then you get into questions about power, throw distance, etc.
So to that OP - Tell us a bit more about what you hope to accomplish, etc.
DTaxon
Member
The lights will be used in a high school theatre, again for permanent installation. They will be used for everything that they can be used for; such as plays, musicals, talent shows, dance showcases, battle of the bands, etc. So a versatile light would be great. Also, the $2,500 price is not a hard price. If there are fixtures that you use that cost $5,000, list them a.) maybe I can convince principles and other higher-ups to pay more and b.) there may be someone who is reading this thread in the future and can spend 5 grand on a light no problem...
DTaxon
Member
My high school actually just purchased the Palette VL 16 from Philips, which I do believe is quite ML friendly.
Your in the Chicago area. Give ILC a call and have them come out a demo some stuff. This market changes about every 6 months. ILC really likes the school market, they should be able to help. Coming on here and saying "do my research for me, here are on constraints" is never a way to get any good information... and it is the reason you have not really received any quality info. Get a sales guy involved who is willing to work for you to get the sale. That same person will then help you keep them running down the line.
No problem, it was a very open ended question in the OP and the only useful answer I could offer was I have found Martin to be the go-to manufacturer for function and reliability. Not cheap stuff though.
I think you will find that currently, it's a bit too soon to find LED sourced fixtures in the price range you may want to spend. Long term and for a school it might well be a great solution due to not needing to change the lamps on a regular basis (for a long while). I'm intrigued by the Robe for one of our spaces, but at $9,000 it's a hard sell.
The Gafftape Method is a total gem of the Wiki articles here and makes for a good starting point for the process of defining needs.
soundlight
Well-Known Member
I'd wait until after LDI this fall, if possible. I'm guessing that more manufacturers will come out with more products that fall in to the category of RGBW mixing hard-edge moving head.
As far as the "Gafftaper method" goes, I was one of the original proponents - and I pushed Gaff towards the direction that would lead him to define his method from the very beginning of designing his new space. Many years have passed since then, and technology has moved forward by leaps and bounds, and prices have dropped like crazy. When buying new, there are so many options out there. I am fully of the belief that several movers, especially LED source movers, can do a world of good in a theater space. Especially an educational one. Reliability on LED movers is much, much higher than their arc source (or even tungsten source) counterparts.
For those with LED color mixing, moving parts are reduced as much as possible. Even for a fixture without LED color mixing, you already lose the physical dimmer and strobe flags from the arc source mover, but with a unit with LED color mixing you also lose the variable CMY filters (prone to damage, especially if their mechanics have issues), as well as a variable CTO filter. You've eliminated the motors for Dimmer, Strobe (admittedly sometimes combined with dimmer), Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and CTO. This is huge.
Heat is significantly minimized, which means that less overall fan action is needed through the fixture, which means that less dust will get in. In most LED movers that I've seen, the LED cooling system is independent of the rest of the unit's cooling system. In the GLP Impression Spot One (another great LED mover, but not as good as the Robe), it's actually completely cut off physically from the forward part of the head. You also don't have a ballast, one of the big, expensive things that fails on arc-source moving lights. Weight and power draw are down and reliability is up with the current round of hard-edge LED spots, and I can only see both of those improving with the next round of releases.
So let's review why LED movers are significantly more awesome than their arc-source counterparts for situations where maintenance is low:
-Fewer motors (many fewer on LED color mixing fixtures).
-No ballast or ignitor (or onboard dimmer for tungsten fixtures).
-No arc lamps to replace or blow up and shatter reflectors.
-Cooler operation, so fewer fans (except near the LEDs which use pretty much as many fans as a lamp does, the rest of the unit is much, much cooler though), less dust moving through the fixture. Even the fans near the LEDs run less because when the intensity is low, the LEDs are putting off less heat, and when the fixture has an intensity of zero there's no heat being generated by a constant-on arc lamp.
-Less power draw.
As far as the Robe DLX and DLS claims of brightness: as far as in saturated colors, it's definitely as bright as a 1200W CMY mover trying to make the same colors. In open white, it's almost as bright as a 700W mover. We did a shootout with a MAC700 with a relatively new (but not brand new) lamp. The DLS was almost as bright as the MAC700, it would have been as bright as a VL2500 (VL2500 isn't quite as bright as MAC700). The savings in lamps would be huge, and the great thing is when the intensity is down, it's off - there's not an arc lamp sitting in there generating significant amounts of heat. I was ridiculously impressed by the Robe DLS and DLX - the DLS in particular with the wicked fast shutter speeds. Everything about the fixture is split-second quick - but I was also able to run a 20 second fade with no visible steps, so they did their homework on the LED drivers.
As far as the "Gafftaper method" goes, I was one of the original proponents - and I pushed Gaff towards the direction that would lead him to define his method from the very beginning of designing his new space. Many years have passed since then, and technology has moved forward by leaps and bounds, and prices have dropped like crazy. When buying new, there are so many options out there. I am fully of the belief that several movers, especially LED source movers, can do a world of good in a theater space. Especially an educational one. Reliability on LED movers is much, much higher than their arc source (or even tungsten source) counterparts.
For those with LED color mixing, moving parts are reduced as much as possible. Even for a fixture without LED color mixing, you already lose the physical dimmer and strobe flags from the arc source mover, but with a unit with LED color mixing you also lose the variable CMY filters (prone to damage, especially if their mechanics have issues), as well as a variable CTO filter. You've eliminated the motors for Dimmer, Strobe (admittedly sometimes combined with dimmer), Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and CTO. This is huge.
Heat is significantly minimized, which means that less overall fan action is needed through the fixture, which means that less dust will get in. In most LED movers that I've seen, the LED cooling system is independent of the rest of the unit's cooling system. In the GLP Impression Spot One (another great LED mover, but not as good as the Robe), it's actually completely cut off physically from the forward part of the head. You also don't have a ballast, one of the big, expensive things that fails on arc-source moving lights. Weight and power draw are down and reliability is up with the current round of hard-edge LED spots, and I can only see both of those improving with the next round of releases.
So let's review why LED movers are significantly more awesome than their arc-source counterparts for situations where maintenance is low:
-Fewer motors (many fewer on LED color mixing fixtures).
-No ballast or ignitor (or onboard dimmer for tungsten fixtures).
-No arc lamps to replace or blow up and shatter reflectors.
-Cooler operation, so fewer fans (except near the LEDs which use pretty much as many fans as a lamp does, the rest of the unit is much, much cooler though), less dust moving through the fixture. Even the fans near the LEDs run less because when the intensity is low, the LEDs are putting off less heat, and when the fixture has an intensity of zero there's no heat being generated by a constant-on arc lamp.
-Less power draw.
As far as the Robe DLX and DLS claims of brightness: as far as in saturated colors, it's definitely as bright as a 1200W CMY mover trying to make the same colors. In open white, it's almost as bright as a 700W mover. We did a shootout with a MAC700 with a relatively new (but not brand new) lamp. The DLS was almost as bright as the MAC700, it would have been as bright as a VL2500 (VL2500 isn't quite as bright as MAC700). The savings in lamps would be huge, and the great thing is when the intensity is down, it's off - there's not an arc lamp sitting in there generating significant amounts of heat. I was ridiculously impressed by the Robe DLS and DLX - the DLS in particular with the wicked fast shutter speeds. Everything about the fixture is split-second quick - but I was also able to run a 20 second fade with no visible steps, so they did their homework on the LED drivers.
