Design Budget Setup for Small Stage

[matt01]

Dear Forum Members,

I read over a good number of threads last night trying to gain some knowledge. I found your advice to be most helpful, so I decided to run my situation by you to see what you think.

My background is in IT where I provide contract support to a number of area businesses. One of these is a school that lost their sound/light man at the beginning of the year. There was no one qualified to take over, so I have been doing it. I feel pretty comfortable with the sound at this point. (I found a very good local mentor.) However, I am pretty much just getting started in lighting.

The school’s main performance area doesn’t really have much in the way of lighting, so I haven’t done really anything with this. (There are a dozen or so lights on four household style dimmers.) I basically turn them on or off. I just started doing DJ work for the school dances. I purchased a CHAUVET® DJ GigBAR™ IRC for this. So far, I have been impressed with this for the application. (It has also increased my interested in lighting, especially DMX.) That is the full extent of my lighting experience.

This brings me to the real question. In a couple of weeks the school is doing a fundraiser that will have a small band (piano, guitar and five vocalists) performing on a portable stage approximately 20 x 10. Since the stage is portable and not being setup in the main performance room they asked me to find some lighting. (The area where they are setting up the stage is actually the darkest section of the room.) The GigBAR is obviously not designed for this, so back to the store.

The ceiling in the room has three center areas that are 10 to 12 feet high and an outside ring that is only 8 feet high. The stage will be setup within one of these higher sections. Therefore, my original plan was to get 16 Chauvet DJ SlimPAR™ 64 RGBAs. I planned on setting eight up in each of the front corners of the stage on two Chauvet Heavy-Duty Tripod Stands set as high as possible. (I am a little concerned about the lighting in the center of the stage, but I don’t see much option.) My thinking was to get a lot of lights. Then, I would also be able to use them for up lighting at other events.

In reading other posts in this forum, I am now concerned I might be going too low quality on the lights. I have to pay for these myself, and I only have $2,500 to spend. (I would like to spend far less, but I also want the show to look good.) I am now wondering if I should go with eight Chauvet DJ SlimPAR Quad-12 IRCs. This would cost about the same, and I would have (I think) better lights that I could add to later.

I plan on spending some time learning lighting in the next few months. I am particularly interested in DMX control, so having some lights to learn with would be nice. However, I need to get something in place for this event in two weeks!

Any suggestions/tips would be appreciated.

Thank you for your time,

Matt

 

[TheLightmaster]

Personally, I wouldn't use such low quality LEDs as the main source of front light. Probably worth investing in some (possibly cheaper) incandescent PAR46 units with a couple of dimmer packs along with a reduced number of LEDs. Cheapo LEDs are good enough for an event not willing to pay for their own lighting, but i would use them as sidelight and backlight, and use the incandescent units for a main front wash. Keep in mind that the cheap LEDs will be likely be only acceptable as a special effect if the school asks you to light a theatre performance. Those LEDs are fine for a music performance, but do not have the subtlety necessary for theatre.

As for control, order an Open USB-DMX from enttec. There are many programs that work with that piece of hardware, some of which offer all the features of a full size, top of the line lighting console, and it costs under $200. That will allow you to hone your programming/opping skills like a real pro.

 

[matt01]

I was thinking incandescent pars might make sense as well since they are so much brighter. I personally like the color much better as well. However, I don't know where to go about looking for these. (When I search, I can find bulbs but not the fixtures. Everything is LED.) I did find a few incandescent pars from American DJ, which I would definitely be willing to purchase if you think they would work. Do you think I should just get eight of these with two Elation DP-DMX20L DMX Dimmer Packs and forget the LED entirely? Should I be looking for another brand? Do you think four LEDs and four PARs makes more sense to add some color? I plan on spending more on lighting in the future and would like to get the highest quality I can, but right now, I can't go over the $2,500.

 

[TheLightmaster]

the good thing about incandescent pars is that the price has little impact on quality. go for them!
and yes, a mix of LEDs and incandescents is the best method in this situation. Use the LED light from the side or back to create a nice colored outline around the performers, while using the incandescent (possibly gelled a skin-flattering color such as R02, R51, R60) to light up the performers' faces.
Ideally I would spec this:
-4 lighting trees
-2 Dimmer Packs
-8 PAR 46, 500W
-8 LED

This setup is flexible and can be used for so many small shows with many different stage configurations.

You will want to set up the pars on two of the lighting trees out in front of the stage, and the LEDs on the other two lighting trees behind or to the sides of the stage.
you can cut down about half the incandescent pars depending on how far away the stage is. that also allows you to cut out a dimmer, but be aware that doing that will necessitate running long power cords from the dimmer to the fixtures on either tree.

 

[Les]

I don't know where to go about looking for these. (When I search, I can find bulbs but not the fixtures. Everything is LED.) I did find a few incandescent pars from American DJ, which I would definitely be willing to purchase if you think they would work.

If you want to buy them new, any theatrical lighting dealer can help. I find a lot of things on eBay, but depending on how the payment is being handled and who is doing the purchasing, that may not be an option. Check university surplus in your area as well.

The ADJ cans are okay. I know that they used to have their products UL listed (which is important) but I'm not sure if that is the case anymore. Have to be careful with those cheap pars - some are better than others. Any time I replace a socket or do any electrical work in one, I always convert them from the rubber cord to high-temp leads.

 

[MikeJ]

I think you are on the right track with the LED's. Skip the Slimpar 64, those don't look very good. The Quad 12 is actually a pretty good fixture, and makes for decent front light. The SlimPar Pro, is still in the line as well, and also makes for decent frontlight, though it is older, and had less output, personally I think at this point in technology, there is no reason to settle for a non unified color led.

The Quad 12 IRC, Will be a good all around light, and as you mentioned before, it is great for up-lighting too. Is it Ideal for theater? No, but It is a good choice for all of the other things that you are planning. I would rather have those as wash for theater, than just one no color wash of incandescent fixtures.

Even if you get more into theatrical lighting, use the LED as side and back light with the existing installed fixtures, and maybe add better front lights later. You will find that this is actually a very versatile method of lighting.

For your portable band setup, You might want to try 4 lighting stands, with 4 fixtures each. 2 front, and 2 for backlight. There are lots of cheap controllers out there that can handle this, and most of those fixtures also have a master/slave mode, or standalone settings.

If you have a little more time to spend learning, and want a lot more control over your show, check out Chamsys. They offer their MagicQ software for FREE, and sell a dongle that gives you one DMX output for $15. That's not a typo, and this is a fully features and professional control software, that many of the designers for top artist utilize. You do have to restart the program every 5 hours though, unless you buy the more expensive hardware.

Data cables: You will need DMX cables, you also must not passively split, or Y-cable DMX, so either all of the fixtures need to be in one long daisy chain, or you can get an opto-splitter. Chauvet has several or there is the Entec splitter, either way its about $100. That makes cable runs a little easier, especially if you add fixtures in the future.

Recently I used a bunch of the cheap Chauvet 5-pin DMX(I think you will need mostly 3-pin) and they were terrible. They use cheap 5-pin connectors that are not molded right, and in many the pins would not even lineup with the connectors on the fixtures. They cost 1/3 of the name brands, but are not worth the trouble. These were obviously the same generic cables sold cheap all over the internet, so maybe it was just a bad batch, but I would avoid them.

They 3-pin versions might be better, because there is a little more tolerance with fewer contacts, and the fatter pins, but I have not used them.

 

[Jeff Lelko]

Another vote from me on the conventional Par front light. As others have mentioned, cheap LED lights aren't acceptable in most theatrical applications nor do they have the output to really light a stage. A lot of cheaper LED lights will also flicker when dimming on video recordings of your work. If you're looking to grow a professional system, that's probably not the best thing to start with whereas you can't go wrong with the basic Par 64. The Elation DP-DMX20l is a good dimmer - I'd choose those if you're going to use conventionals in your system. I'd honestly suggest using 1 dimmer per tree too. While the idea of running power from one tree to another to save a dimmer sounds easy enough, the cable you'd use to do that isn't cheap so I don't think you'd really save that much in the end, plus you'll have room for expansion then too. You should be able to get 2 dimmers and 8 cans for under $1000, so that'll leave plenty of budget left over if you wanted to try some LEDs for backlighting and effects as others have suggested. You're absolutely right that LEDs are more versatile because of their low power consumption and color mixing, but it's nice to have more than one tool in the box for doing your work!

I also agree with the others that a software solution for a controller will likely be your best option until you have a few thousand to spend on a more physical console. I've been a MagicQ PC user for almost the past decade now and can certainly vouch for its authenticity as a 'real' controller. You get a lot of professional features for the very reasonable cost of just the interface. I use the Enttec DMX Pro interface and have never had any issues with it. One of the advantages of Enttec over the MagicQ interface is that the Enttec can be used with many different programs (including MagicQ and M-PC), so you aren't locked into just one software package. One thing to think about though is if you need hands-on control of your lights. Some people (myself included) prefer the ability to adjust light levels with physical faders versus swiping or clicking and dragging. All that said, I still use MagicQ and/or my Behringer Eurolight when the show I'm lighting doesn't warrant dragging along my larger ETC board.

A lot of this comes down to personal preference of course. For stands, the Global Truss ST-132s are nice. They're very solid for what they are, but of course that makes them a little on the heavy side if portability is a concern. I also think they're ugly, but they do their job very well and are always my go-to stand. I also own a pair of the Odyssey LTP8-Pro Stands too. They use a gear mechanism to raise and lower versus the cable and winch that the ST-132s do and look much nicer. They can only raise about 8ft though... For cable I use the Elation AccuCable and have never had a problem, even with very long runs. Hope all this helps!

-Jeff

 

[JD]

Incandescent PARs give you the biggest bang for the buck BUT-
Watch out for your power draw. Wattage starts to add up real fast and wall power has limits. For example, a 20 amp circuit only powers 1,920 watts. That would cover a lot of LED pars, but no where near as many incandescent pars. If you are running them with 300 watt lamps, you can use about 6 before you have to start looking for another circuit. Many of the shoebox dimmers have another limit, the line cord. If the power cord is only good for 15 amps, then you are limited to 1,800 watts. If your outlet is on a 15 amp circuit, you are further limited to 1,400 watts.
As you can see, if you have an LED fixture that only draws 60 watts, you can run 5 times as many fixtures.

 

[de27192]

To any beginner, this thread would make a lot of people think tungsten (incandescent - for the OP) was the way to go. It's not that simple.
The things everyone seems to have forgotten about are:

- Power - Remember a tungsten PAR64 draws 1000W. People are getting the same light output from LED units at 100W. In school buildings which might not have heavy mains - and just domestic power, 16 LED PARs are going to easily fit on one or two domestic power outlets. The same cannot be said for tungsten.

- Heat - Remember tungsten lamps are not efficient. A lot of that 1000W is coming off as heat. This will make the room and the stage much warmer and you may have to consider another form of cooling to keep it pleasant in there.

- Colour - With tungsten units, you will have to budget more money for rolls of gel to make the different colours you want. With RGB/etc LED, you can create an infinite number of colours without additional materials.

- Lamps - The OP is on a personal budget. Tungsten fixtures will need a replacement lamp every so often, and a stock kept for the moments it happens. On the other hand, you can expect LED to keep working for years without need for a spare part.

- Outdoors - Finally worth remembering most generic fixtures do not like being outside, if it rains especially. Many LED units, on the other hand, are being built to IP67 rating from the offset so that they can be used outdoors in the rain til the cows come home. For school use, this is something well worth considering.

Personally, I'd be encouraging the OP to stick with his LED idea, but head more towards 8-10 better quality units, than 16 crappy ones.

 

[JohnD]

If you do choose to go the Par46 route, I just noticed that 4wall has some used ones for sale, and the used items direct from them are usually quite good.
http://www.usedlighting.com/49/par-46-can-aluminum-black-or-silver

 

[robartsd]

I'd second the vote against MagicDMX in favor of a dongle that can be used with non ChamSys software. When used with ChamsSys software, 3rd party dongles function very similarly to (and often are cheaper than) the MagicDMX Pro in that they don't require the 5 hour restart that the $15 MagicDMX Basic requires. However, MagicDMX Basic is the absolute cheapest way to get DMX out from a computer. In addition to Enttec, you might look at DMXking for the dongle. ChamSys software cannot be used with external control surfaces unless you use a ChamSys wing. As you have plenty of IT knowlege, you'd probably have no difficulty configuring a network/node system, it usually is not the most cost effective solution for a small portable system, but could provide more flexiblity down the road if you think you'll eventually build up a rig big enough to justify such a system down the road.

 

[matt01]

So, here is an update. I was sold on getting some PAR46s until I was reminded of the power requirements. I knew intellectually power could be an issue, but I never realized how quickly 20 amps is reached! As this building is rather old, I would certainly be concerned about tripping a circuit. I checked with the maintenance man, and there have been issues in the past with circuits being tripped. (He did say he could show me how they are separated to help avoid overloading them.) So for that reason alone, I decided to get eight Chauvet DJ SlimPAR Quad-12 IRCs. I am going to set them up for a test and see how they light the stage. If they are satisfactory, I will just use them. If not, I will get four PAR46s to supplement.

As for DMX, a got a cheap SUSHI controller free with the GigBAR. It is only 128 channels and doesn't work with hardly any software, but it does allow full (manual) DMX control. I decided prior to posting this that I would definitely need to upgrade the controller and ordered the ultraDMX Micro from DMXking. (This has not arrived yet.) I was looking into VenueMagic to use as the controller, but I will definitely check out MagicQ before spending any money.

Thanks for all of your help!

 

[robartsd]

Personally, I'd look at QLC+ for the software side of things (mostly because I'm a bit of an open source nut).

 

[AhClem]

The BlueLite X1- mini might be worth a look.