Cam-Lok Power Tie-In Lockout

Hi,

Our theatre has a 250amp "company-switch" power tie in off stage, that we tie Camlock tails (no caps) into via bare-wire connections when we need additional power onstage.
Currently, we disconnect the tails immediately after use, and don't wire them back on until we need them next. However, one visiting technician suggested that by using proper lock-out procedures on the breaker for the tie-in (which is in the same panel as the tie-in), we could save time and leave the tails mounted. This sounds intriguing, but I'm very hesitant.

Does anybody have experience or advice with this situation, or can anybody direct me to the proper NFPA code that governs temporary tie-in, or "dangling" CamLock connectors? (it's wye if that matters)

I'm looking into lock-out solutions regardless, but it would be great if we don't have to tie those tails every other show.

Here's some Grainger products that look applicable:

http://www.grainger.com/product/BRA...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3TM25_AS01?$smthumb$

http://www.grainger.com/product/BRA...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3LY22_AS01?$smthumb$

http://www.grainger.com/product/MAS...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/1TDB5_AS01?$smthumb$

Thanks in advance anybody!
 
The above is what the switches with tails have in the building in which I work most (although mine came that way/not a retrofit). Three 600 and one 400A, 120/208Y VAC. Tails have been in place for over twenty years. All of the other switches are 200A, have flush-mount Cam-Lok, and have no locks, other than those on the panel doors.

In my opinion, the most important relevant portion is 2011 NEC 520.53(P) Qualified Personnel.

As always, check with your AHJ, who has final say in the matter.
 
Just don't lose the keys, it is a hassle to cut off a LOTO legally.
 
I would say 80% of the venues I see on tour don't have cams locked out in any fashion. The ones that do have a lock on the switch for the whole panel, as opposed to for the breaker. I've NEVER seen one tagged out for temporary power.

On behalf of all touring guys, I beg of you, please keep a set of cams installed, there is nothing worse than waiting an extra half hour for motor power for the tie in to get one.
 
We have tails tied in to our lightning switch all the time with no lock out. Our motor and audio power are panel mount cams with spring loaded covers. All of them are not locked. Qualified personnel only is the rule here...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 
I'd say this definitely falls into that intentional code gray area known as "ask your AHJ if you want to know the real answer." That being said, I bet a lot of the buildings that keep their tails tied in don't ask for fear of being told no. Qualified personnel is certainly the most important part of any electrical hookup, but if the $15 breaker lockout makes everyone feel better then I'd say it's money well spent. If you want to implement a proper lock-out/tag-out with assigned lock/key sets and an official log then it might be a bit of additional paperwork (usage policies, training practices, records, etc...), but the theatre SHOULD have some kind of OSHA contact to help guide them through that process.

Side note:
On behalf of all touring guys, I beg of you, please keep a set of cams installed, there is nothing worse than waiting an extra half hour for motor power for the tie in to get one.

Half an hour! Who's doing you tie-in? Insert token joke here about 70 year old union hands (I'm tired).
 
Half an hour! Who's doing you tie-in? Insert token joke here about 70 year old union hands (I'm tired).
I suspect what he is talking about is getting the guy to show up! Can remember a few jobs where we waited hours! (Luckily, none involved motors.)
 
Waiting for power on an in sucks, especially in ballrooms where you have to wait for an "electrician" from "engineering" to show up. And often venues will throw a fit if you just tie in yourself. Though, at 2am nobody ever complains when my tails mysteriously untie themselves during load out.
 
We have tails tied in to our lightning switch all the time with no lock out. Our motor and audio power are panel mount cams with spring loaded covers. All of them are not locked. Qualified personnel only is the rule here...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

It's not as if lock-out, tag-out is an onerous thing to do. In most states it is required by law, regardless of whether the personnel are qualified or not. Even the most controlled environements have had accidents that could be prevented by LOTO.
 
Though, at 2am nobody ever complains when my tails mysteriously untie themselves during load out.
Ya notice that? ;)

Often, the tails would ride in the cab of the truck as we gave them every possible opportunity to come disconnect us. When the truck's packed, and the only person left in the building is pushing a broom, I would drag myself down and pull them.
 
You know, for the cost of lock out/tag out gear, and the official training that you and your crew should have to properly implement that system (I know, how hard is it to put a lock on a service panel), and then the lock out only works of someone Locks it out and doesn't forget for some reason, or personnel changes leave the good ideas in the dust bin of history, you may want to consider actually putting in the Camlock receptacles so that you don't have to worry about it at all. I have sympathy for the touring people not wanting to wait to tie in their tails, but it IS an accepted time consideration. If you want to be safe, put in the panel or just continue to tie in the bare leads. I found this panel online. No idea if it would work in your situation...
https://www.atidistributors.com/ele...ion-400-amp-assembled-includes-caps-lanyards/
And speaking of tying in power, since you are in an exposed power panel tying in power, you SHOULD already be LOTO at the panel and potentially upstream as well.
Just sayin'...
 
Waiting for power on an in sucks, especially in ballrooms where you have to wait for an "electrician" from "engineering" to show up. And often venues will throw a fit if you just tie in yourself. Though, at 2am nobody ever complains when my tails mysteriously untie themselves during load out.

It's amazing how that works isn't it. One time I asked about pulling my tails while the electrician was tying me in and he just left me a key to the panel. That way he wouldn't have to come in at 2am to do it for me.

In our venue we lock the knife switch right next to the tie in panel. All of the qualified people have the key though.
 
Not necessarily true depending on the configuration of the panel and it's location in the building.

If you are working in a hot panel or disconnect, then you have the obligation of following the rules for arc flash. The protective equipment isn't trivial at the higher category levels, and most stage disconnects would fall into the higher categories because the building distribution system is large. Doing this correctly makes the cost of putting the protected cam lock switch look like an easier path.

BTW, I have seen the injuries from an arc flash. It's nothing to mess with. A simple slip of a screw driver, or a faulty breaker, and you might not have much flesh on the front of your body. Like many of you, I have worked in a hot panel countless times, but it is time to develop a new level of respect for the amount of potential energy that can be unleashed.
 
Not necessarily true depending on the configuration of the panel and it's location in the building.
I'd like to see the rules that say LOTO isn't required due to a panel location or configuration. It is this simple. If you are working in a panel/circuit that can be energized by someone else, that power to that panel needs to be LOCKED OUT upstream with a locking device that only YOU have the key to. The locks and keys should be in an identifiable cabinet with a log book so that anyone can see who has a lock/key signed out, where the are working and what is being locked out. I think the only way you can go around that is to have someone standing at the locked piece of gear to prevent someone else from energizing the circuit, but please let me know if that is incorrect. It has been a few years since the LOTO class and I don't do that anymore.
There are many reasons and excuses that can be listed as to why one may want to skirt established safety rules. No one here can say they have not done (or will do sometime in the future) some kind of procedure that may not necessarily be "code", and basically the best that can be said about those times is that "We Got Lucky" that no one was hurt, not that we were correct and safe. All we can do is try to hold to a standard. If you are going to work with an established standard, in this case LOTO, then don't do it half assed!
 
Hi,

Our theatre has a 250amp "company-switch" power tie in off stage, that we tie Camlock tails (no caps) into via bare-wire connections when we need additional power onstage.
Currently, we disconnect the tails immediately after use, and don't wire them back on until we need them next. However, one visiting technician suggested that by using proper lock-out procedures on the breaker for the tie-in (which is in the same panel as the tie-in), we could save time and leave the tails mounted. This sounds intriguing, but I'm very hesitant.

Does anybody have experience or advice with this situation, or can anybody direct me to the proper NFPA code that governs temporary tie-in, or "dangling" CamLock connectors? (it's wye if that matters)

I'm looking into lock-out solutions regardless, but it would be great if we don't have to tie those tails every other show.

Here's some Grainger products that look applicable:

http://www.grainger.com/product/BRA...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3TM25_AS01?$smthumb$

http://www.grainger.com/product/BRA...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3LY22_AS01?$smthumb$

http://www.grainger.com/product/MAS...m/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/1TDB5_AS01?$smthumb$

Thanks in advance anybody!


There are a few separate but related questions here:

1. Does the NEC prohibit leaving single-conductor Cam-Lok tails connected when not in use?
Not explicitly, but certainly implicitly. Operation of single conductor feeder cables is limited to Qualified Personnel. Dangling tails that can be energized invite unqualified personnel to do potentially bad things with them. Therefore, it is the responsibility of the Qualified Personnel to remove the tails when not in use, unless the source is locked out. An AHJ would be highly likely to take this view, IMHO.

2. Does locking out the source of power to the tails allow them to be safely left connected when not in use?

Yes, in my opinion. This has the added benefit of reducing the exposure of personnel (even qualified personnel) to an open panel or switch each time the tails are tied in. This might present an arc-flash hazard.

ST
 
One of my buildings leaves the dangling tails (on some panels) but locks out (not true loto, just a key with limited access) the panel. It saves a lot of time and the key its locked with is the same one the qualified people have to open the panels.
 
I believe the OP's original question has been answered as best as will happen. As usual Steve Terry probably said it best.

Now onto this (potential overstep of the TOS, mods please edit as necessary):
I'd like to see the rules that say LOTO isn't required due to a panel location or configuration. It is this simple. If you are working in a panel/circuit that can be energized by someone else, that power to that panel needs to be LOCKED OUT upstream with a locking device that only YOU have the key to. The locks and keys should be in an identifiable cabinet with a log book so that anyone can see who has a lock/key signed out, where the are working and what is being locked out. I think the only way you can go around that is to have someone standing at the locked piece of gear to prevent someone else from energizing the circuit, but please let me know if that is incorrect. It has been a few years since the LOTO class and I don't do that anymore.
There are many reasons and excuses that can be listed as to why one may want to skirt established safety rules. No one here can say they have not done (or will do sometime in the future) some kind of procedure that may not necessarily be "code", and basically the best that can be said about those times is that "We Got Lucky" that no one was hurt, not that we were correct and safe. All we can do is try to hold to a standard. If you are going to work with an established standard, in this case LOTO, then don't do it half assed!

I absolutely agree with you that LOTO is a practice that prevents equipment from becoming unexpectedly and dangerously energized. In the situation you mentioned where the tie-in location is separate from the disconnecting means (breaker, disconnect, knife switch, etc...) the disconnecting means would most certainly have to be locked out. However there are other situations where it isn't necessarily the case that LOTO must be used for a normal everyday tie-in (Not saying that it couldn't be used if that makes a person feel safer, just that it isn't compulsory).
A common situation to find in a road house or an arena is that all company switches are fully enclosed with both a breaker and the tie-in terminals in the same panel and they are all contained inside a room or area that is only accessible to qualified personal. In a configuration like this, when the breaker is open the terminals are disconnected from the mains and a person would literally have to reach over the qualified person doing the tie-in to energize them. In many situations like that LOTO is an unnecessary extra step.
It is possible that it is unsafe to work with the terminals inside the panel when the mains input is live, and in those cases LOTO should be used (probably upstream of the panel in question), but many panels today are designed so you can safely tie-in to the terminals with the mains input still live (provided the breaker is open of course). There are even some newer designs where if the breaker is closed you can't open the door to access the terminals.
All I'm saying is there are a ton of different ways to achieve the same goal and each one requires individual safety consideration. That's why we always say talk to your AHJ.
 
It's amazing how that works isn't it. One time I asked about pulling my tails while the electrician was tying me in and he just left me a key to the panel. That way he wouldn't have to come in at 2am to do it for me.

In our venue we lock the knife switch right next to the tie in panel. All of the qualified people have the key though.

Recently at a hotel, they guy came down from engineering and was a little nervous, then point blank, said "Um..I've never actually done this before...I've done electrical work, but not like this." At least he was upfront, and wanted to be safe. I gladly walked him through it.

And to get back on topic, If you have the budget and space, why not add a panel mount set of camlocks? Maybe 2? They do make things very convenient.
 
Recently at a hotel, they guy came down from engineering and was a little nervous, then point blank, said "Um..I've never actually done this before...I've done electrical work, but not like this." At least he was upfront, and wanted to be safe. I gladly walked him through it.

And to get back on topic, If you have the budget and space, why not add a panel mount set of camlocks? Maybe 2? They do make things very convenient.

Still does not change the original question. How does going from tails to panel mount cams change anything in regards to locking out the panel unless the panel mount cams have a interlock or some other way of ensuring they are not energized when they are not connected.
 

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