Installs Church Audio Advice

[JFutty90]

Currently re-specing the system in my church. The current system is about 13 years old and the console is starting to act up.

Main advice I am looking for is speakers. The room to be covered is about 30' wide by 62' long. There is extra space behind the speakers that is 19' wide by 12' deep. This is where most of the audio comes from. The main audience will start about 10' from the front wall and range all the way back. It is a tall room around 30' tall at the peak and the walls are straight up will 11' up when they start to go towards the peak. There is no balcony to cover with audio. There is a balcony, but it just contains the sound board and racks (I know....), choir, and organ.

The current system is using (from what I can tell) 2- JBL AM6215/64 as main front L/R, 2- JBL AM6212/64 as delay fill L/R about 40' from the front, and 2- JBL JRX118S as subwoofers located in front under the mains (where they should be). The speakers are flown at about 11' off the floor. The system fills the space nicely, with plenty of head room all the way around using Crown CH4 amps for the mains and CH2 for delay and subs all ran around 1/2 power. There is a DBX Driverack 260 as processor for EQ, Delay, and Crossover.

The main source is a single lav from the pastor. We use a keyboard most Sundays with the choir or for hymns. We are currently implementing a new praise service once a month using contemporary music. Acoustic guitar, bass guitar using a Line6 amplifier board, clarinet, and hand held wireless and corded for vocals.

So I am looking for something equal to these but also not going to break the budget. Currently looking at the JBL PRX415m as L/R Mains, JBL PRX412M as Delays, and EV ELX118P as subwoofers. Was still curious if there are any other ideas that may be better than what I have come up with.

 

[rwhealey]

Currently re-specing the system in my church. The current system is about 13 years old and the console is starting to act up.

Main advice I am looking for is speakers. The room to be covered is about 30' wide by 62' long. There is extra space behind the speakers that is 19' wide by 12' deep. This is where most of the audio comes from. The main audience will start about 10' from the front wall and range all the way back. It is a tall room around 30' tall at the peak and the walls are straight up will 11' up when they start to go towards the peak. There is no balcony to cover with audio. There is a balcony, but it just contains the sound board and racks (I know....), choir, and organ.

The current system is using (from what I can tell) 2- JBL AM6215/64 as main front L/R, 2- JBL AM6212/64 as delay fill L/R about 40' from the front, and 2- JBL JRX118S as subwoofers located in front under the mains (where they should be). The speakers are flown at about 11' off the floor. The system fills the space nicely, with plenty of head room all the way around using Crown CH4 amps for the mains and CH2 for delay and subs all ran around 1/2 power. There is a DBX Driverack 260 as processor for EQ, Delay, and Crossover.

The main source is a single lav from the pastor. We use a keyboard most Sundays with the choir or for hymns. We are currently implementing a new praise service once a month using contemporary music. Acoustic guitar, bass guitar using a Line6 amplifier board, clarinet, and hand held wireless and corded for vocals.

So I am looking for something equal to these but also not going to break the budget. Currently looking at the JBL PRX415m as L/R Mains, JBL PRX412M as Delays, and EV ELX118P as subwoofers. Was still curious if there are any other ideas that may be better than what I have come up with.

Why replace the speakers if they work? Those speakers are a high end installation model from JBL and the PRX4xx series would be a significant downgrade. If you are looking for better speakers, be prepared to pay quite a bit. If the speakers don't sound good, there is probably a problem in the DSP settings. However, the JRX subs aren't great. The DBX DR260 is a MI grade fixed architecture DSP and the Crown amps were low end models at the time. What board did you have?

I would recommend hiring a professional to replace the subs with something like a Danley TH118, the DSP with a pro grade install DSP like a BSS Soundweb London, pro grade install amps like QSC CX (or Crown Drivecore Install if you want to stick with all Harman) and the sound board that is a problem. Also, if you can manage to get the sound board out of the balcony and down into the audience it will make your board operator a lot happier. Make sure that the installer you hire tunes the system - the equalization is a big factor in how well the system performs.

 

[JFutty90]

I was afraid that would be the issue. I had a good idea they were top of the line and would be challenging to replace with equal quality speakers.

Board is a Spirit LX7 which I know is major contributor to the issues. I have tried working with the DSP EQ starting over and over again to no real luck. I have it as good as it can get. It would be a lot easier if the whole rack or control area was on the main floor, but that is very unlikely except for very special events where I could take over the last two rows of pews for the board and what not. And as I am the main special events op, I would love it but know the chance of that is very slim.

I am looking at just upgrading the amps, DSP, and board (was laying out a whole system replacement). If the problem is still present, try using different speakers through the same cables. If still there, maybe try new cables?

Main reason I was looking at new speakers was the fact that the left main has a weak or blown HF driver. I found them on ebay, but was going the lazier route of just doing new speakers. Which as I am writing this down I realize it isn't necessarily the easier route...

The Danley looks a little big, considerably bigger than the JBLs. What is your opinion of the EVs? Or any other sub recommendations?

 

[FMEng]

Besides the blown driver, what problems are you trying to resolve? I don't want this to sound like a put down because we are all learning and have different levels of experience. You seem to be asking some pretty basic questions and approaching this a bit aimlessly. Maybe we can help you figure out what really needs fixing and in what priority.

 

[rwhealey]

I was afraid that would be the issue. I had a good idea they were top of the line and would be challenging to replace with equal quality speakers.

Board is a Spirit LX7 which I know is major contributor to the issues. I have tried working with the DSP EQ starting over and over again to no real luck. I have it as good as it can get. It would be a lot easier if the whole rack or control area was on the main floor, but that is very unlikely except for very special events where I could take over the last two rows of pews for the board and what not. And as I am the main special events op, I would love it but know the chance of that is very slim.

I am looking at just upgrading the amps, DSP, and board (was laying out a whole system replacement). If the problem is still present, try using different speakers through the same cables. If still there, maybe try new cables?

Main reason I was looking at new speakers was the fact that the left main has a weak or blown HF driver. I found them on ebay, but was going the lazier route of just doing new speakers. Which as I am writing this down I realize it isn't necessarily the easier route...

The Danley looks a little big, considerably bigger than the JBLs. What is your opinion of the EVs? Or any other sub recommendations?

The LX7 was never a high end board and it is reasonable that it has a problem due to age. I would look at a digital replacement - there are plenty of good options out there.

Your first priority should be figuring out why the speakers failed - it could have been overdriven, or the amplifier could have failed. If your DSP settings are incorrect it is easy to damage a speaker. It is fairly simple to fix a HF driver but it does require a little experience. I would hire a contractor to check them out. Just make sure that you fix the cause of the failure first or you will be repairing hte drivers again in two weeks. It is unlikely your cable has failed - it would be much easier to test your speakers individually with a known good amplifier than testing the cables with new speakers.

The ELX118p is in the same league as the JRX. It's not an upgrade. A single TH118 is about the same size as 2 x ELX118p and will get a lot louder than the pair. There are smaller subs that would match your other speakers in quality, but in general the smaller your sub the more you compromise the performance.

I still recommend hiring a competent installer to help you out with diagnosing the problems, repairing your current system, and performing the upgrade.

 

[StradivariusBone]

I second what has been said- You've got a pretty good reinforcement setup for a church, I've not seen too many with as decent a speaker arrangement as you describe. I can't speak as knowledgeably on the quality of speakers and specific models, but I would recommend that you troubleshoot some more to specifically determine what is causing your issues (or more accurately- what your issues are). From what you've stated I see a desire to replace a lot of components with a vague-ish description of what's actually wrong. A bad setup in the DSP can easily cause a lot of aural problems and as has been stated depending on how your speakers are wired, it can actually damage them. Are they bi-amped? What's the crossover set at on the DSP? We've got a set of Peavy SP-2's that blew a driver out a few years back and it was fairly simple to repair, significantly cheaper than replacing the entire cabinet. Power on pops and hot patching will wear out those pretty quickly.

The console could also be a problem. If you can't swap in another "known-good" console to test, I'd try and set up your console to drive another "known-good" power amp and another "known-good" speaker and then check each input and output outside of your main system. Just plug a mic or iPod in and go from one side of the board to the other. I'm willing to bet you'll find something exciting.

I would also try putting different components in line, for example- swap out the power amp driving the mains and see if it makes any difference. Or just swap L-R and see if the problem follows or stays in one spot. Isolate your zones to see if the issue you're hearing is coming from one whole side or just one speaker. That might tell you if you've got a bad channel from the board versus a bad speaker. If you isolate and swap/remove one component at a time you'll probably find what is causing your grief. Maybe bypass your DSP and go straight to mains to see how it sounds different. That could give you an idea of what you need your DSP to do. Are you sure your delays are set correctly? That can cause havoc also. As you swap- take lots of notes and/or pictures so you can see where something happens and also put it all back together correctly.

Generally speaking with good care and lack of abuse those speakers you've listed should last quite a while. The mains in our space are pushing 20 years and are still in good shape. My biggest pet peeve in life is when churches and schools have a problem with their audio systems and throw money at the problem to make it go away. It's a lot cheaper to get a qualified audio tech on site and replace a few components than to build a system from scratch on your own, find out it's not better, and keep buying stuff til it gets better or you run out of money. I'm not chastising, but I've seen this cycle way too much in my life. It keeps me awake at night.

Depending on where you're located, there might even be someone on this board that would be friendly enough to come take a gander and lend an ear. Good luck!

 

[FMEng]

I still recommend hiring a competent installer to help you out with diagnosing the problems, repairing your current system, and performing the upgrade.

RWHealey makes several good points. Because of the particular line of speakers you have, my guess is the system was originally installed by a professional. Since then, the system has been altered quite a bit. DSP is powerful, but it takes some skill and instrumentation to make the best use of it. It would be worth seeing if you can identify who did the original work and asking them to have a look at your system.

 

[JFutty90]

I can't say who installed the system, but from what I gathered he is in the audio field in some way. It wasn't a specific company but someone who did it for the church personally. I think he now lives in the mid west.

I was mostly just redesigning as a way to give the church an idea of the cost for a replacement and was going the decent quality route for speakers. Now with the current conversation I am leaning more towards troubleshooting the system completely to see where the weak spots are. I am guessing that it is the middle of the system, DSP and amps, that is the majority of the quality issues.

To answer questions above, the system is not bi-amped, everything is done via the internal crossovers for the speakers and the DBX rack. The console is having issues internally that I have discovered already by sending certain inputs directly to an Aux send with no regard to the level on the strip. Nothing that by itself is a complete failure for how it is used, but an inconvenience for me when using that aux send as an FX send.

The main problems in the full system is blown HF driver as mentioned above. I have used a different amp for those speakers because the left channel (the one that is blown) was weak and I cleaned it out and tested it with different speakers and it seemed to be fine. The delays are also really HF heavy even when pulling down the frequencies that I have found (via RTA and good mic) to be the delinquents via the DSP, it seems to have little to no effect. It may be the DSP is having an issue with those two outputs or the amps just over drive that range.

I am not taking any of this as bad planning from my end, I am really glad I started this conversation with other people to get new ideas of how to tackle the overall task. When I get the chance to really take a good day to mess with the system again, I'll try all the above ideas and see what results I get. Any other ideas are welcome or questions are welcome!

 

[JD]

Risking the sound of a broken record, the speakers and power amps are really good units. You want to change out the HF driver AND the crossover on the unit that has a blown HF driver. (Often the crossover may have failed and passed too much LF. ) It is also not impossible that the driver is fine and the crossover is toast. Passive crossovers are always a weak spot.

Your problems are with the head end of the system. You mention that the speakers on the delay sound shallow (High end heavy.) You may want to pull out the delay line and feed them the board output just to get a feel for how they sound with a good signal. Could be the delay processor has a problem. Could be the location of this pair rob them of their low end. Removing the delay will answer the question. Checking the phase of the wiring to all the speakers is also a good idea. People make mistakes, and a simply polarity reversal on one speaker can rob the system of low end. In any case, money is best spent on the front end (Board.) This will give you the best bang for the buck.

 

[TJCornish]

Why replace the speakers if they work? Those speakers are a high end installation model from JBL and the PRX4xx series would be a significant downgrade. If you are looking for better speakers, be prepared to pay quite a bit. If the speakers don't sound good, there is probably a problem in the DSP settings. However, the JRX subs aren't great. The DBX DR260 is a MI grade fixed architecture DSP and the Crown amps were low end models at the time. What board did you have?

I would recommend hiring a professional to replace the subs with something like a Danley TH118, the DSP with a pro grade install DSP like a BSS Soundweb London, pro grade install amps like QSC CX (or Crown Drivecore Install if you want to stick with all Harman) and the sound board that is a problem. Also, if you can manage to get the sound board out of the balcony and down into the audience it will make your board operator a lot happier. Make sure that the installer you hire tunes the system - the equalization is a big factor in how well the system performs.

The DR260 is variable-architecture, and sounds better than the 480. Other than that I agree with your statements. The AM6000 series is on the high side of OK - not amazing, but not terrible.

The best values in quality speakers are self-powered devices - several manufacturers make professionally-tuned biamped and sometimes FIR capable boxes. It would not be hard to replace the AM6000s with something better, however it's not a slam dunk that an active speaker hung on the ceiling is a good idea (access to power and maintenance issues), and anything will require room tuning. It's entirely possible that a repair, replacement of the amps, and a competent retune would produce a similar or better result than any reasonably economical replacement speaker.

I have a friend that does a lot of installs and it's his opinion that modern amps sound so much better than the stuff from 10+ years ago that he won't take a job unless the customer is willing to replace the amps.

 

[StradivariusBone]

I have a friend that does a lot of installs and it's his opinion that modern amps sound so much better than the stuff from 10+ years ago that he won't take a job unless the customer is willing to replace the amps.

Not arguing or picking a fight (it's hard to be clear online), just curious- what has changed in the past decade on amp design that has made such a difference? The newest amps I've seen/used are from QSC (can't remember the model off the top of my head) and are quite lovely, but they are driving subs in a tri-amp config so I can't really discern that the sound is any better or worse than the other power amps in that config which are probably closer to 10 years old.

 

[rwhealey]

The DR260 is variable-architecture, and sounds better than the 480. Other than that I agree with your statements. The AM6000 series is on the high side of OK - not amazing, but not terrible.

The DR260 is a fixed architecture DSP. Take a look at the block diagram from DBX:



If it was an open architecture DSP, you would be able to move around the processing blocks. You can route inputs to outputs because the DR260 has a mixer. That doesn't make it open architecture.

The best values in quality speakers are self-powered devices - several manufacturers make professionally-tuned biamped and sometimes FIR capable boxes. It would not be hard to replace the AM6000s with something better, however it's not a slam dunk that an active speaker hung on the ceiling is a good idea (access to power and maintenance issues), and anything will require room tuning. It's entirely possible that a repair, replacement of the amps, and a competent retune would produce a similar or better result than any reasonably economical replacement speaker.

While powered speakers are great for portable operations and I use them in some installation situations, you can achieve the same goal with a properly powered non-powered speaker and an external DSP. Take a look at the Fulcrum Acoustics model, for instance: they allow you to use any FIR capable DSP. You do hit a lot of the reasons that powered speakers may be undesirable, especially for renovation work. Hiring an electrician to install an outlet will wipe out any savings you get from powered speakers, which are typicall small or non-existent in the first place.

I have a friend that does a lot of installs and it's his opinion that modern amps sound so much better than the stuff from 10+ years ago that he won't take a job unless the customer is willing to replace the amps.

Your friend is incorrect and is wasting his customers money. The MacroTech was released in 1992 and is better than many amps produced today. The QSC CX series was released over 10 years ago and is still made today. The QSC RMX series is basically the same amp as the MX series that was released in the early 90's. Furthermore, it is very difficult to hear the difference between any power amplifiers made in the last 30 years in normal non-overloaded operation with sound reinforcement speakers. Low frequency (subwoofer) performance is where problems are most likely to show up and modern lightweight amplifiers are worse than old, heavy Class AB amps.

 

[TJCornish]

The DR260 is a fixed architecture DSP. Take a look at the block diagram from DBX:

View attachment 11440

If it was an open architecture DSP, you would be able to move around the processing blocks. You can route inputs to outputs because the DR260 has a mixer. That doesn't make it open architecture.

That depends on your definition of variable architecture, I suppose. The DR260 allows multiple crossover designs, variable delay buckets, and has everything I expect in a generic 2x6 processor (other than the stupid serial interface, grumble). My definition of "fixed architecture" is the DRPA. Other than BSS London-type things, most processors I've worked with are "fixed architecture" by your definition.

Your friend is incorrect and is wasting his customers money. The MacroTech was released in 1992 and is better than many amps produced today. The QSC CX series was released over 10 years ago and is still made today. The QSC RMX series is basically the same amp as the MX series that was released in the early 90's. Furthermore, it is very difficult to hear the difference between any power amplifiers made in the last 30 years in normal non-overloaded operation with sound reinforcement speakers. Low frequency (subwoofer) performance is where problems are most likely to show up and modern lightweight amplifiers are worse than old, heavy Class AB amps.

The MacroTech is a fine amp, and was designed as a money is no object impressive industrial design. This does not mean all amps are as good. What I believe has changed is that modern cheaper amps now perform better than older cheaper amps - many of which are found in installs of the level of the JBL AE series. I appreciate your opinion and generally am skeptical of snake oil, but I disagree with you that there are no differences. That and the fact that most power amps 10+ years old have leaky caps makes it not very difficult to believe that replacement is a good idea.

 

[rwhealey]

That depends on your definition of variable architecture, I suppose. The DR260 allows multiple crossover designs, variable delay buckets, and has everything I expect in a generic 2x6 processor (other than the stupid serial interface, grumble). My definition of "fixed architecture" is the DRPA. Other than BSS London-type things, most processors I've worked with are "fixed architecture" by your definition.

There is one definition of fixed architecture and open architecture - most processors you have used probably are fixed architecture if they are smaller loudspeaker processors. There are even high end fixed architecture processors with FIR filters like the EV DX46. The common element is that the processing path is pre-defined.

Open architecture is a processor like Soundweb London, Biamp Audia, QSC Q-Sys that allows you to create a processing program by inserting blocks of processing wherever you want in the signal path. Note that we are talking about the "architecture" here - crossover designs, delay, etc are all properties of a given processing block and can't be considered part of the architecture of the DSP.

 

[TJCornish]

There is one definition of fixed architecture and open architecture - most processors you have used are fixed architecture. Open architecture is a processor like Soundweb London, Biamp Audia, QSC Q-Sys that allows you to create a processing program by inserting blocks of processing wherever you want. Note that we are talking about the "architecture" here - crossover designs, delay, etc are all properties of a given processing block and can't be considered part of the architecture of the DSP.

So, in the context of the OP's question, why is this relevant? I've used Londons several times including doing an install with fairly complicated routing, mixing, and processing, and can think of no reason that's a better fit for the OP's situation than a DR260.

 

[rwhealey]

So, in the context of the OP's question, why is this relevant? I've used Londons several times including doing an install with fairly complicated routing, mixing, and processing, and can think of no reason that's a better fit for the OP's situation than a DR260.

There are a few reasons why you would want a more powerful DSP than a simple speaker processor in a situation like this one:

- Using an open architecture DSP would allow the OP to create a "simple system" for the pastor to use without an operator - an automixed single mic input, for instance, or a simple control knob on the pulpit to control volume.
- The DR260 doesn't have enough outputs to biamp the main speakers, run two delays, and run subs
- An open architecture processor will allow the OP to process the monitor speakers
- The DR260 likely doesn't have a factory EQ preset for the OP's speakers while a Soundweb would
- The processing and EQ capabilities of an open architecture processor will allow the system tuner more flexibility in getting the system to sound good

These are all features of the system that the OP may want, but might not. That's why including a professional in the design process will be helpful to the OP - we don't know specifics and can't design a system over the internet, only give some general advice.

 

[TJCornish]

There are a few reasons why you would want a more powerful DSP than a simple speaker processor in a situation like this one:

- Using an open architecture DSP would allow the OP to create a "simple system" for the pastor to use without an operator - an automixed single mic input, for instance, or a simple control knob on the pulpit to control volume.
- The DR260 doesn't have enough outputs to biamp the main speakers, run two delays, and run subs
- An open architecture processor will allow the OP to process the monitor speakers
- The DR260 likely doesn't have a factory EQ preset for the OP's speakers while a Soundweb would
- The processing and EQ capabilities of an open architecture processor will allow the system tuner more flexibility in getting the system to sound good

These are all features of the system that the OP may want, but might not. That's why including a professional in the design process will be helpful to the OP - we don't know specifics and can't design a system over the internet, only give some general advice.

The DR260 does have presets for the AM6215 and AM6212, and at the time of the install, would have probably been my choice, too. I wonder if the JRX subs were added later, as those clearly aren't at the level of the rest of the install.

I understand the flexibility of more I/O whether that is a 4x8 processor or something like a London, but I took your disdain for the 260 as being related to poor sound quality; and I'm not convinced a London would sound materially better than what could be done in the 260. As to presets - since the OP's speakers predate the modern FIR revolution, I have a hunch that many original installers would skip the presets and roll their own - something not too difficult for a simple box.

 

[rwhealey]

The DR260 does have presets for the AM6215 and AM6212, and at the time of the install, would have probably been my choice, too. I wonder if the JRX subs were added later, as those clearly aren't at the level of the rest of the install.

I understand the flexibility of more I/O whether that is a 4x8 processor or something like a London, but I took your disdain for the 260 as being related to poor sound quality; and I'm not convinced a London would sound materially better than what could be done in the 260. As to presets - since the OP's speakers predate the modern FIR revolution, I have a hunch that many original installers would skip the presets and roll their own - something not too difficult for a simple box.

I was unaware that the 260 had presets for the AM series, so other than the I/O requirements I think might be a good idea to keep it. I have no problems with the sound quality - I've recommended them in the past, though recently I've been recommending the Ashly 3.6SP or EV DC-One when I'm looking for a fixed architecture processor.

 

[hagleader]

hello, My church needs to get 2 main speakers. We have a budget of $1600 for 2 and the room is 60x50. My pastor likes the JBL brand but looking for any nice speakers for our budget. thanks!!

 

[jkowtko]

First thing that comes to mind is a pair of QSC K12. I personally have Mackie SRM450 and use them in a large gym for instrumental music concerts, and I think they sound great. I also use Anchor AN-1000x as fills Most people will tell you, however, that the K12 in comparison is a notch up in terms of smooth frequency response. Plus they look a bit cleaner visually.

In contrast, most non-powered speakers I have heard hanging in rooms don't sound good to me at all. But that's just my bias.

I don't use DSPs ... I run the house flat. The only EQ I use is low cut for non-percussion, and the occasional notch filter on input channels to deal with feedback from condensor mics that are close to the front.