Curious . . What brand gel and what does it cost?

[gafftapegreenia]

Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?

While I love the idea of low cost gels and gobos, and will probably end up using Goboman product in the future, their book is just ...random. I'm sorry, and I hold nothing against a small company like Goboman, I just feel it would have been a prudent buisness decision to launch their line with a more organized book.

 

[Charc]

Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?

While I love the idea of low cost gels and gobos, and will probably end up using Goboman product in the future, their book is just ...random. I'm sorry, and I hold nothing against a small company like Goboman, I just feel it would have been a prudent buisness decision to launch their line with a more organized book.

I'm not trying to nitpick, but I'm not clear, are you saying you will or won't use goboman in the future?

As for myself, I have no intentions of it.

Apollo is top on my list though! The numbers as wavelengths have got me excited!

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?

Umm, if presented a situation where it would be useful, i.e., very small budget and short term use, I might. As always, it's about what's right for the job. However, my point remains that a poorly organized swatchbook is not conducive to me using someone's product. Also, I don't want to say "I'll never use Goboman", because that day will come when for some reason or another, I do.

In the mean time, I'll continue to use gel from the big names, and try to explore Apollo and the others when I can. Up until this point I have been nearly a Rosco only designer, due to its widespread availability and my familiarity with it. I hope that I might have a better chance in college to explore the creative aspects of lighting in greater depth.

Does that make sense, it does in my warped mind...

 

[derekleffew]

Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?

Exactly what is the cut-off for "necroposting"? And some random thoughts, while I wait for new posts in more current topics.

"I'm keen as mustard to get a few on board the bus though!" Kelite where on earth did a phrase such as "Keen as mustard" come from? Is that an Indianian thing? You'll be happy to know I used a little square of AP2110 from my new swatchbook to gel my new LED minimag. Just can't stand the blue-white of LED and 3/4CTO is perfect. BTW, does CTO stand for "Color Temperature Orange" or "Correct to Orange"? And what is the number for AP-clear?

BillESC to answer your original question, as a "man off the street" in October, I paid $7.25/each for one sheet of Lux, Lee, Gam, and AP. In the 80s I used to pay $2.95 for Lux and $2.75 for Lee from NYC. I don't think that vendor is in business any longer.

I picked up a swatchbook from a manufacturer named "Cotech" at LDI last time. Colors seem to be clones of Lux and Lee. I should be cutting that one up for gelling flashlights.

 

[avkid]

Re: Curious . . What grand gel and what does it cost?

"I'm keen as mustard to get a few on board the bus though!" Kelite where on earth did a phrase such as "Keen as mustard" come from? Is that an Indianian thing?

No, a little farther to the East.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/as-keen-as-mustard.html

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Derek, you mentioned you got a Cotech swatchbook? That was where my originally criticism of the Goboman line of gel came from. There are three "other" gel manufacturers we seldom recognize, these being Cotech, Chris James, and Formatt. I was trying for the longest time to get swatchbooks from each one of these companies. Well, finally I got ahold of someone at Formatt. They told me something to the effect of "Well, we don't like to send out swatchbooks because they are expensive but since you took the time to seek us out we will." Well, my Formatt book came, and it's the size of the LEE book, but the colors have NO organization. Not bad colors, but even the LEE numerical system makes more sense. So, then I decided to look at the Chris James and Cotech websites. Guess what, EXACT same colors, numbers and organization as Formatt. So, here we have three companies with essentially the exact same thing. What is going on here.

Then I got my Goboman swatches. Here's where I got in trouble on this thread. The Goboman book, albeit 1/3 the size of my Formatt book, has the same colors, numbers and organization as Formatt and all the rest. So, I understand that Goboman is trying to provide low cost alternatives, and has several manufacturing partnerships, but at least they could be original in the organization of their gel. Now, I don't know if Goboman actually makes their gel, but regardless, a bit of swatchbook organization would help a long way in getting their product into use.

These are my feelings, feel free to disagree.

 

[derekleffew]

Then I got my Goboman swatches. Here's where I got in trouble on this thread. The Goboman book, albeit 1/3 the size of my Formatt book, has the same colors, numbers and organization as Formatt and all the rest. So, I understand that Goboman is trying to provide low cost alternatives, and has several manufacturing partnerships, but at least they could be original in the organization of their gel. Now, I don't know if Goboman actually makes their gel, but regardless, a bit of swatchbook organization would help a long way in getting their product into use.

The order makes perfect sense, once one understands that they "borrowed" the colors and numbers of Lux and Lee. And I'm not knocking them, Lee did the same thing to Strand's Cinemoid, and has many (most) colors and numbers similar to Lux. With color media it just doesn't make sense to buy "generic." Stick to the big four "brand" names. (In the US.) Where did I read where an Asian manufacturer had a line similar to Lux, same colors, but was like cellophane and burned through immediately? I think it was from someone on tour in the Far East. Would you like me to send you my Cotech swatchbook?

 

[gafftapegreenia]

That is basically my point. I'm sticking to the "Big 4". Maybe when I understand LEE I will understand the "generics". Makes sense to be like LEE in European countries.

Cheap Asian gels? Probably what you get with ADJ pars.

 

[Logos]

Theres a lot of unlabeled cheap gel around here. It tends to come precut in packets of mixed unnumbered colours for various standard size lanterns. It is like cellophane and lasts about 10 minutes. It seems to be LEE colours though. Thats a guess based on having to use it once or twice. When my daughter borrows my Par 16's and Par 20's for her scout show I buy that for her because my lights come back but the colour never does. I reckon they pinch it for craft projects.

 

[Kelite]

< BTW, does CTO stand for "Color Temperature Orange" or "Correct to Orange"? >

Yes and yes, it just depends who you ask at any given time. I believe CTO Color Temperature Orange (photography) is the 'official' accepted definition though.

And what is the number for AP-clear?

The Apollo Clear gel (as used on each gel string) is #AP 0000, and will be recognized on the website in the future. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[SteveB]

I'm interested in what brands of gel you all use and what your current cost is.
Thanks for the help.

We use all - Rosco, Lee, GAM and Apollo, though I really only use the GAM and Apollo for visiting companies whose plot called for particular colors.

I tend to use Rosco mostly, with some Lee, for in-house designed events.

We pay about $6.25 at GSD in Long Island, NY

Except when we get an idiotic request for about an entires plot full of GAM 870, which is a very, very pale blue color correction. The touring company of The Acting Company used this yesterday on a tour of The Tempest and GSD did not stock the quantity I needed (14 sheets), thus we had to FedEx from California, so the sheets cost $8.25 ea. with shipping factored in.

It escapes my why the friggin designer and/or the tour LD didn't make a note that Lee 218 was a perfectly acceptable substitute and is probably a color that shops are more likely to keep in stock, at least in these parts - Brooklyn and the NYC metro area. I've nothing good to say about this subject and this show, BTW.......

Venting in NY and sorry for the thread topic diversion.

Steve B.

 

[derekleffew]

...Except when we get an idiotic request for about an entires plot full of GAM 870, which is a very, very pale blue color correction. The touring company of The Acting Company used this yesterday on a tour of The Tempest and GSD did not stock the quantity I needed (14 sheets), thus we had to FedEx from California, so the sheets cost $8.25 ea. with shipping factored in.

It escapes my why the friggin designer and/or the tour LD didn't make a note that Lee 218 was a perfectly acceptable substitute and is probably a color that shops are more likely to keep in stock, at least in these parts - Brooklyn and the NYC metro area. I've nothing good to say about this subject and this show, BTW.......

Venting in NY and sorry for the thread topic diversion.

Steve B.

SteveB-enitre plots with CTB in every light? Yes, BTDT! The first time I did Mumenschantz, I believe it was Bev Emmons, who had recently convinced them that L202 would make their "whites whiter." ALL fixtures, except for two specials that were R26, were 1/2CTB. It worked! I kept the L202 on file as they were a big hit and I knew we'd be having them again. This was my first introduction to the "back of the swatch book" color corrections.

But couldn't/wouldn't you have just substituted the L218 for the G870? Or was it not worth the $115? I substitute all the time for followspot color, as that's all we provide and I have a limited stock. I've never been questioned, but if anyone ever asks, I would say "It's just the fixture/throw distance" of the 2K Xenon Super Trouper.

On a different note, I contacted my old friend Mike Kaye of VADAR, which used to be in NYC and is now in FL, and he tells me he has "some odd colors that we are clearing out at the price you paid in the 80’s. Do call me and say hello again. Thanks. Mike Kaye 1 800 221 9511" So about $3/sheet for Lux and Lee? Give him a call, or visit VADAR Productions. Tell him I sent you!

 

[icewolf08]

Good Grief! Putting 1/4 CTB in your fixtures doesn't make your white whiter, it changes your perception of white.

There is a wide range of color temp that we accept as white. Thus, if you shift your white point towards blue by using a 1/4 CTB we then perceive that as the white point. So if you were to have a no-color unit it would look yellow-ish. You can also shift your white point warmer and you can shift it towards lavender. It is like putting on a pair of lightly tinted sunglasses and wearing them all day, you still perceive white as white, even though your glasses may have a rose tint, but when you take them off, the world will seem a little bluer.

 

[Kelite]

That's an interesting topic to think about, Alex. When buying 'white' paint from a local paint supply place for commercial use, attendant added half a squirt of blue into each can before placing on the "shakesasfastascanbe' machine. His explained that the paint wouldn't look very white without it.

Interesting when compared to the comments made at LDI during an ESTA sponsored seminar regarding 'Practical Photometry Image Quality and Lumen Output'. Post seminar comments and explanations included the reason why little old blue-haired ladies have blue hair. Their eyes (and those of their hair-dressers) have aged to the point that the blue isn't perceived as blue. It is perceived as a 'whiter white'.

Depending upon our age, our visual sensors will tell us what they can. (Even when you don't think your hair looks blue, but your kids tell you- YES!)

 

[derekleffew]

Good Grief! Putting 1/4 CTB in your fixtures doesn't make your white whiter, it changes your perception of white...

Alex, I'm sure you know what I meant. When the 2700K houselights went to black, and the, "corrected to" 4300K stage lights came on, the whites in Mumenschantz's B&W costumes really popped. And the moment in the show when they used the two R26 specials alone...I've never seen a "redder" red.

For those who don't know, Mumenschantz is/was a mime troupe in the 70s/80s. They were doing the "rolls of toilet paper" thing way before The Blue Man Group.

 

[SteveB]

Warning - LONG POST:

In response to derek and Alex, yes I might well have
substituted to L218, except....

I got a "final" converted version of our rep plot from the tour LD (who admittedly was up to his buns - and 2 weeks late we learned after, at pre-tour tech for the show, the week prior) on a Friday 1/18 - a week early. The original plot by a well known designer had no color information on the plot (didn't we just have this discussion ?) and had no hookup attached. The "final" plot adaptation did have an LW file with NO color info in it, which I did not get till late last Monday 1/21. I then worked at home on Tues. (my day off) on the files, sending the sheet color order to the shop on Tuesday, who then informed me they had to FedEx missing GAM, for Wed. P/U (electrics prep was 1/25, load-in 1/26, Perf.1/27).

I actually did not look in the GAM book to see what G870 was, till Wed. 1/23 (I was home and left my books at work). Had I checked out the color I would have called the LD and told him we were substituting L218 for the GAM as we were not paying the extra $30 to FedEx, PLUS $6.25 a sheet for 14 sheets.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the job of the touring LD to figure out what's going to work at the assorted houses they go to ( a tradition started in some ways by dance SM/LD's such as Tom Skelton, Jennifer Tipton and Bev Emmons - whom had been quoted often about this subject), and more experienced LD's know that most house have a greater selection of Rosco and Lee (for the time being). Most experienced LD's also do a substitution list (when appropriate). This plot had some Lee HT 026, which IS R26, as example.

About half the total plot was in GAM 870 and I don't really care if a plot is all in N/C or R85 - designers choice, etc....

FWIW, every back light and hi-side PAR had R114 added to the color. About every ellipsoidal had a mix of R132 or R119.

Thread diversion here:

The LD focused by first asking for the color to be pulled on the unit (ellipsoidals). He would then sharpen to hard beam edge, do cuts, then drop color and frost back in. We focused 125 units in 5 hrs., which for us is painful.

The LD also used focus tapes, but actually did not have focus charts to reference, only using a magic sheet. In any event our RFU operator had the plot in front of her and would call up channels and tell the LD what it was. I didn't understand why he used focus tapes. Maybe he had memorized all the positions, but doubtful as this was the first stop.

I was also un-clear as to why he needed to pull "color" on the GAM 870's to "see" where the beam was, as, well..... I left it alone.

I generally see the more experienced touring LD's NOT automatically add diffusion to ellipsoidals - and cannot remember the time anyone asked for generic diffusion for a PAR, which had little to no discernible effect on the beam quality. Adding R132 or R119 or someone elses version, I understand, especially for some S4 36's and 19's, but I generally just run it soft and see what it looks like, having requested a lot of diffusion to be ready as needed. In any event, the original plot had R119 or R132 ADDED in every frame, as opposed to separate frames, which I changed in the cut list, wanting the option. It actually turned out to be a mistake when EVERY color frame on EVERY ellipsoidal was pulled to focus, requiring the electrician to restore 2 frames of color for every unit.

Then there were the scroller issues, then the touring Express 250 dying at 9PM Sat. nite, then the AutoYokes not functioning..... another post perhaps.

Partial rant over.

Steve B.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Just so we're clear:
G870 is 1/8 CTB.

G842 is 1/2 CTB.

L202 is 1/2 CTB.

L218 is 1/8 CTB.

 

[derekleffew]

Thank you for that clarification, gafftapegreenia, but you could have been more complete. See below.

SteveB, didn't mean to touch a nerve. Focusing 25 units an hour is painful? For buffet lighting in ballrooms, hotels here CHARGE an hour (at $50-90) labor to focus 6 units/hour. I average about 20units/hour, just me and a Scissor lift, depending on how crowded with tables and chairs the room is. (And whether or not I'm on overtime yet.)

I've often wondered the wisdom of R132 in every ERS also, as you have to pull it during focus, get a "blue-line" edge, make shutter cuts, put it back in, and then often re-adjust shutters. AND sometimes still "run the barrel." (Should have been), good thinking to put it in an extra frame.

DO share more of your rants/war stories in the future. I think we all find them entertaining, both to learn from, and to commiserate with. Significant others just don't seem to understand, sometimes.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Derek, Derek, Derek. What do you have against my friend R3206, 1/3 Blue? He's a great color. He also has an Apollo cousin, AP2030.

And what about Double CTB's, like R3220, L200, G847 or AP2090.

Of course I can't speak for GAM's oddball, G872, 1/6 CTB.

Oh and your chart is also missing GAM's four-digit numbering for their CTBs.

 

[Charc]

That's a coincidence because I always spec R00 and R96 in all of my ERSs. I find the R00 helps diffuse the beam, without getting in the way of shutter cuts as much as R119. R96, that's a no brainer, it changes the color dramatically, like 1/2 Blue. But R96 provides a unique white, which enhances the eye's perception after the 3,200K houselights fade to black.