Control/Dimming ETC Congo Kid- what's the downside?

BGW

Active Member
So today our theater teacher said that he's up for getting new controls, and he was thinking around $5000 for budget (I can hear you professionals snickering). I started poking around all of the lighting companies' websites, and I came across the ETC Congo Kid. It sure seems like a bargain for what it does, and it looks to be really well put together. The only consoles we'd probably be able to swing from ETC are the Element, Ion, and Congo Kid. The CK seems to be the best out of the three for our needs. (I'll explain below) I'd love to hear opinions from this pool of experts.

We have a large setup of conventional fixtures with the capability to expand. We have 240 2.4 KW dimmers with the capacity to go to 288 dimmers (two MD-288 racks, one is only half full). We're starting to venture into intelligent lighting, and our current controls aren't even close to cutting it. We've got a Producer 2+ (probably haven't heard that in a while, huh?) and Horizon. The console doesn't get used very often for obvious reasons, but I'm weird and I'd rather use the console than Horizon. We recently rented 4 MLs for Xanadu (ugh), and we had to rent software to run them. I think if we had the contol capability, we'd run more MLs.

The Congo Kid seems to fit our needs perfectly. The Element doesn't seem to be well suited to moving lights, and the Ion might be getting a bit spendy for us. It's also in multiple pieces (not good for us), whereas the faders are integrated on the Congo Kid.

Of course, we're not married to ETC. I was looking at Strand but they don't seem to have anything directly comparable. Leviton seems to be a bit outdated, but I know they're built well. The Leprecon LPX-48 is the closest thing I can find for our needs that's not from ETC. I haven't heard much about them, though. Are they good consoles?

I'm sure this is hard to read through, but I'd really appreciate your input.

Thanks all!
-Peter
 
I have a full-size Congo and a Congo Jr. at a local high-school/roadhouse. Love 'em to death. I've never felt limited using them. Biggest problem we had though was first getting students trained on it. Our vendor was unable to provide adequate training other than to show us how to turn some channels on. Eventually we got a day setup at ETC and took everyone over (ETC is only an hour away from us). After that training session, things got a lot better.

Now that we've got four or five students at anytime that know how to use the console (some more than others), we never have problems putting a student in front of the console for a rehearsal or a show.

We've also got another nearby high school that uses a Jr., and a roadhouse 30min away that go rid of their Strand 520i for a Jr., only to replace it with a Kid as soon as ETC had a prototype for them to demo in the field.

I've got a third roadhouse in the area that I work at that I've been trying to get them to put their Light Palette VL out of its misery and pickup a Congo. I'm actually giving them our full-size for six weeks from the other venue so they can give it a solid test ride. The Light Palette VL just isn't cutting it for that venue with having 40 LED fixtures in a situation where more shows are busked live than pre-recorded and played back from cue stacks.

Speaking on behalf of myself and the programmer (a student) I have help me frequently, we've never felt limited by our Congo. There were situations where we didn't exactly know how to do something, but we've yet to find anything in Congo that we really wanted to be able to do and couldn't -- everything we've wanted is there.

Did Nutcracker two weeks ago on a Congo -- first show with moving lights that we've had at the venue. Was a great experience. I start all students on that console by showing them the built-in training projects and by having them record 30-50 cues with conventionals and moving lights using the built-in visualizer for the training projects. Ended up having two different students help with the programming for Nutcracker, and both had a pretty painless experience.

Some things to give serious thought too though:

1) Get a demo, of any console you may consider, Congo or otherwise. Better yet if you can talk to a dealer and get a console in your venue for a month and play around with it.

2) When learning a console (Congo, Ion, Hog3, Element, what-have-you), learn how the console deals with moving lights. My programming workflow on Congo sped up drastically once I learned how to program moving lights on it. For the year or two previous to that, I only knew how to program conventionals and missed out on a lot of very useful features that speed up programming time -- features that are intended for programming moving lights but really help programming conventionals too.

3) Think about who is going to be using the console. If it's mostly students who will use it a few times a year, Congo is probably not for you. Eos/Ion/Element will do fine for programming ML's once you learn how those consoles work, and they'll feel more natural to a broader group of people.

With Congo, we've had to make a concerted effort to get our programmers as knowledgeable as they are, but because we pay them to program professional shows and we use the console every week, it's not an unreasonable expectation. An unreasonable expectation would be if they used the console once or twice a year and were expected to remember how to do everything when they only touch the console every six months.

At the local high school, Congo is the best thing since sliced bread, but because we train our programmers and put their skills to use regularly. The other high school down the road holds a couple shows in their theatre a year, and they have exactly one student who kind of knows what he's doing. I've received phone calls on more than one occasion to get them a "real" programmer in a pinch, because their students have had no formal training and use the console infrequently.

4) If you demo/get a Congo, use the training projects. The training projects are the absolute best way to learn the console, and because they include visualizers, you can learn moving lights without owning moving lights.

5) Try more than one console out. Seriously -- do it.

The Kid is an excellent console, but in the wrong application it can cause headaches, like for that school down the road from me with the Jr. that has to call me to find them programmers for their shows.

The Element and Ion are also excellent consoles, except they have the added benefit of being easier to learn in the United States because more people use them and it's easier to find someone to teach you how to use an Element than it is a Congo. (Whereas Congo has a greater presence in Europe)

You can't swing a dead cat around a region of theatrical dealers without hitting several people who can teach you an Element/Ion/Gio/Eos. The same cannot be said for Congo.
 
Wow- thanks for being so detailed. You've really explained the pros and cons well. I think it would work out well for us. People wouldn't have difficulty with a new configuration since we don't have anything like it to begin with. The manual seems to be very useful without being too dense.

I've also stumbled upon the Obsession II. They're available within our price range with all the goodies (RFU, dual controlers, etc). I don't know anything about it. Would it be worthwhile for us to look into?

On a side note, I must say that the Obsession II is the most aesthetically pleasing system I've ever seen.
 
Wow- thanks for being so detailed. You've really explained the pros and cons well. I think it would work out well for us. People wouldn't have difficulty with a new configuration since we don't have anything like it to begin with. The manual seems to be very useful without being too dense.

I've also stumbled upon the Obsession II. They're available within our price range with all the goodies (RFU, dual controlers, etc). I don't know anything about it. Would it be worthwhile for us to look into?

On a side note, I must say that the Obsession II is the most aesthetically pleasing system I've ever seen.

Re: Obsession II

Obsession II is discontinued. Some venues will still buy them used to replace existing Obsession II's, but I wouldn't buy one today. The new ETC consoles are leagues ahead of the Express(ion)/Obsession consoles that ETC used to offer.

Re: Manual

The Congo manual is good for figuring out which buttons to press to accomplish a certain task, but absent from it are outlines on which features to use for which situations. I can think of a half-dozen ways to make a series of lights chase, each method of which has different pros and cons. That's why it's best to learn Congo from training projects, from someone who uses Congo professionally and/or from the ETC Congo forums.

Playing around on the console is the absolute best way to learn. The people who have trouble learning lighting consoles (Congo or otherwise, but especially Congo) are people who don't know how to sit down in front of a lighting console and just try stuff out for several hours at a time. Students generally fall into the category of people who don't "know how to learn a lighting console". The most frequent reservation I hear from students is that they're afraid they'll break it (which short of spilling a Coke on it, isn't possible), or they just don't know what they're trying to accomplish and don't know where to begin trying to dive in.

That's why when I sit students down in front of the console, I start with the general "Press this button to turn this on" kind of stuff and then move to the higher-level tasks. A typical training session from me looks like this:

1) How to start a new show file, patch it, and such.
2) How to select channels, record presets, groups, etc.
3) How to put things on the faders (groups, palettes, channels, presets, sequences)
4) "Tour" Training Project: Building groups for everything from scratch by grabbing all of the channels, then using Highlight/Next/Last/Select-All to find similar lighting fixtures and put them into groups that make sense.
5) "Tour" Training Project: Recording color/focus palettes for moving lights -- Why programmers use palettes.
6) "Tour" Training Project: Record dynamic/chase effects for conventionals and moving lights.
7) "Tour" Training Project: Record 30-50 cues for a 3min song, using effects for moving lights AND conventioanls along the way.
8) "Tour" Training Project: Playback the cue stack and hopefully it produces something in the visualizer to the tune of a show like this (which was not the same rig used for the "Tour" project, but it's the same premise of what the end goal should sort of look like.

The difference between this and a normal console training session is that in a normal console training session, you learn what different buttons do. In something like what I do, you learn how to build a pretty complicated show from scratch to the point you could almost immediately be prepared to run at least a basic show without breaking a sweat. It's a very 1:1 type approach though. It's hard to teach in this style to more than one or two people at a time. Wouldn't have it any other way though -- students learn much better this way I've found.
 
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I'm just going to chime in because I saw the LPX mentioned as an option. Since I use that console quite often I can say for a fact that you would hate it with a firey passion, much like the rest of us who use it. It's like someone took all of the bad stuff about every console I've ever used and put it in one desk. Well, not really, but it certainly seems that way sometimes when I'm trying to program. The syntax is entirely non-standard and everything is just a major PITA to program.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sensing some negative feelings towards the LPX from your post...

Just kidding. Thanks for helping me steer clear of it!
 
I'm just going to chime in because I saw the LPX mentioned as an option. Since I use that console quite often I can say for a fact that you would hate it with a firey passion, much like the rest of us who use it. It's like someone took all of the bad stuff about every console I've ever used and put it in one desk. Well, not really, but it certainly seems that way sometimes when I'm trying to program. The syntax is entirely non-standard and everything is just a major PITA to program.
I'll second that.
As to the OP, I have used nothing in the Congo line so I don't know how the Kid differs from the rest of the line. I have used an Ion and you can't go wrong there. As Mike said above, many are afraid they going to break it. It is a computor, you can only do so much harm.
 
"I was looking at Strand but they don't seem to have anything directly comparable."

Strand does have consoles comparable to the Congo Jr & Ion which are competitively priced. The suggestions from the other folks are good: you should definitely try out a few different consoles from reputable manufacturers. It's a good idea to get your hands on these things to get a feel for how they work. You'll want to select a console to meet your current and future needs, but also one that your school will be able to get local support for into the future. Long after you and your peers have moved on.

Contact your local vendors/dealers (or maybe get your instructor to help here) and see about setting up some demos. I work at Mountain Light Company in Denver - listed on the Strand (and other websites). We could help, as well as the few others like us in town.

Good luck.
 
"I was looking at Strand but they don't seem to have anything directly comparable."

Strand does have consoles comparable to the Congo Jr & Ion which are competitively priced. The suggestions from the other folks are good: you should definitely try out a few different consoles from reputable manufacturers. It's a good idea to get your hands on these things to get a feel for how they work. You'll want to select a console to meet your current and future needs, but also one that your school will be able to get local support for into the future. Long after you and your peers have moved on.

Contact your local vendors/dealers (or maybe get your instructor to help here) and see about setting up some demos. I work at Mountain Light Company in Denver - listed on the Strand (and other websites). We could help, as well as the few others like us in town.

Good luck.
Welcome to the site. Good recommendation about local support, it's good to have someone nearby that can put eyes on a problem.
 
LEDMX, pardon my ignorance, but how do we go about that? Do we set up a time to go down there and see some consoles, or do we rent/demo a few different ones to use for a day or two? Do you sell ETC?
 
LEDMX, pardon my ignorance, but how do we go about that? Do we set up a time to go down there and see some consoles, or do we rent/demo a few different ones to use for a day or two? Do you sell ETC?

All you need to do is call (or have your instructor call). With a little notice, we would arrange a time to come by your venue to review your site conditions, demo a console and if schedule allows, leave it there for a period of time - or even a short run of a show. Presuming your existing console outputs DMX. This is a good time to help you & whomever controls the budget, to do a needs assessment and be certain your future needs are covered. This also allows you to touch the console. Availability would vary, depending on the console, dates, etc. Everyone is busy these days, so it's best to have a few choices of dates in mind.

We do not work with ETC, but there are a number of folks here in Colorado who do. I'm sure the ETC website can help you find someone.
 
LEDMX, pardon my ignorance, but how do we go about that? Do we set up a time to go down there and see some consoles, or do we rent/demo a few different ones to use for a day or two? Do you sell ETC?

As a dealer/rental house I say; call them and ask what they can do!

A note on Congo: We have a few in the area and we get calls asking for help. The backwards syntax gets most students/volunteers. There are far more Express/Element/Ion consoles around and we get far fewer questions.
 
... I'm sure the ETC website can help you find someone.

Here is the link for a List of Colorado ETC Dealers. Being a former Coloradan myself, I can say that all of these people are good companies to work with. As LEDMX and others have said, giving any of them a call (or having your instructor call) to arrange a time to demo any of the consoles you are interested in is the best way to pick the console that fits your needs.

There are several places in Colorado that use the Congo family of consoles primarily or in addition to other consoles. You have several good resources locally in addition to the manufacturer's support.

Full disclosure: I do work for ETC, but in this post I am posting personally and not as a function of my official job.

~Kirk
 
I would never put a Congo (any of the line) in a high school theater setting. The syntax isn't intuitive and just causes problems. Not that it isn't a good board, but it isn't a good board when the theater tech teacher can't remember how to program it. I worked a job last year, 150 dimmers, no movers and a Congo Jr. It was a very frustrating gig.

(edit) Also yes, you can change the syntax back, but once it gets reset, everyone will be lost. Just don't do it.
 
The syntax isn't intuitive and just causes problems.

The RPN always seemed VERY intuitive to me strictly by a calculation of keystrokes needed to accomplish things. That said, the syntax is like no other board anywhere. If anyone there wishes to go beyond high school and continue in this industry, they will see a LOT more places with Eos software than Congo software. Also, Eos software is much closer to other consoles than Congo. Also, I've never been in this scenario, but the Eos line syntax seems like, as MNicolai said, something that is much easier to relearn if you go a long time without it.

That said, the main distinction I've always made is that Congo is better for busking and rock & roll type shows whereas Eos/Ion/Element are better for running traditional, cue list shows.

I've never run an ML on Congo but if you never have more than four you should be fine running them on Element.
 
Love the RPN.

Truthfully though, after the show is patched, I do everything in my power to limit my keystrokes for recording cues and running a show.

I recorded 130 cues for Nutcracker last month -- 6 ML's and 140 conventionals. Probably didn't call up a single channel via the keypad during the entire programming process. Only RPN used was to record my groups/palettes and assign them to faders.

Didn't even use RPN to record the presets -- had my assistant put all of my presets in via the spreadsheet editor, assign fade times, and label all the cues. Then went actually recorded data into the cues during rehearsal (not even a tech rehearsal -- a full run-through that only paused a couple times to mark the movers).

My workflow is such that even my students who don't know the RPN can use the console.

As far as my workflow is concerned, what I do on a Congo is a lot like what other programmers do on a Hog. I've even been asked by touring LD's to make the screens and faders act like a Hog or to act like an Avo, or to act like a fill-in-the-blank and they've run entire shows without having to know anything about RPN.

You *can* set the console in At Mode instead of RPN, but I wouldn't. The console is very counter-intuitive to me in At Mode. Use the RPN for a week and you'll be comfortable with it.

The main thing I'd say about Congo is that it's a Programmer's console -- not a Lighting Designer's console. A good programmer can make the console do anything, but an LD will find it clunky unless they take the time to change how they plan their lighting.

For example, an LD may spend a lot of time coming up with a light plot that's intricately patched in a way only they can remember (that's not the intention, but it's frequently the effect). I've told our TD to stop doing weird patches, because after I make my groups, calling channels out individually is [always] unnecessary. It's faster for them to say "2nd Cyc light from SL" than "Ah...what was that channel number again...304? Nope -- that's not it..."

Only advantage I've found to non 1:1 patching of dimmers is when the LD knows their patch by heart or already has their show file recorded. Even the slightest lack of memorization and it's faster for me to do it my way than wait for the LD to check their plot.

Congo can do conventionals like a conventional desk can, and it'll work, but it works infinitely better when you structure your show files for a busking environment. Even for recording theatrical-style shows, the first thing I do is set the file up like I'd busk it, then "busk" the rehearsals to record the show.

The value of Congo in schools isn't being able to send students to college knowing a Congo -- it's sending them to college being masters of programming for a busking environment.

I recently had to learn a Light Palette VL, which was a nightmare for me. Not because it's an inherently bad console, but because I learned from Congo how to streamline the heck out of my workflow in a way the LP can't handle. Learning the keystrokes, the way the console works -- all of that was easy, and that would satisfy most programmers. What was frustrating was knowing all of the ways the features of Congo put the LP to shame.

Eventually my students will go on to learn other consoles, and when they meet those new consoles, they'll know exactly what they want those consoles to be able to do for them by knowing what they loved about Congo.

Congo is scary if you focus on the RPN, but that's only an issue if you really like typing lots of stuff in. Congo is set up so you really only have to key in as much as you want to, and when you do have to key stuff in, it goes quickly. Once you lose your love for typing things in, everything about the console begins to make sense.

All of this is pie in the sky if you want to just type stuff in and punch buttons to get a show recorded a couple times a year. You won't use it enough to get past the RPN and get into the really awesome features. It'd be like buying a GrandMA and using it like an Express console.

I emphasize programming ML's in my console training because for two years, I only used Congo like an Express console cursed with RPN. I was mostly satisfied and the RPN I rather liked, but then I learned how to program ML's on the console. I spent a week in ETC's marketing lab doing that -- every few hours I'd find some new, amazing feature I just had to text my programmer-friends about.

I see two big beefs about Congo get posted on CB frequently. The first is with RPN, and the second is about how the venue doesn't even have ML's so they don't understand why a Congo was purchased.

I've only twice in four years programmed ML's on a Congo. It's great for movers, but just about everything about how it's streamlined for programming movers applies to conventionals too.

I promise anyone this: If you learn how Congo programs movers and apply those same methods to programming conventionals, you'll understand why people like me are walking billboards for Congo consoles. If I was less a resident programmer/LD, and was more a freelancer, I'd go so far as to buy my own console.

For now, I'm satisfied knowing my various employers either already own Congo-series consoles or are trying to find ways to justify buying them because I wouldn't stop bragging about how good they are. It's not a console that sells itself, but a demo with a professional Congo programmer goes a long way.

The greatest crisis for Congo though is that the vendors selling, speccing, and providing training on them [are not] professional Congo programmers, so when they provide training, they teach you how to use it like an Express instead of like a Congo, making RPN the greatest barrier to entry for new programmers.

Even ETC's training is all about syntax and different options and checkboxes in different menus. The general frustration is "It's great that I now know thirty different ways to set up a single master, but how does that get me any closer to getting this show lit?"

I can look at a cheat sheet two weeks after a training session if I've forgotten the syntax. What I can't do two weeks after the training session is get a top-to-bottom look at how a professional Congo programmer would structure their workflow, and the real meat of why I love Congo is all in the workflow.

One man's grievance is another man's bread and butter. People don't like RPN; I love it. They think Congo is just for moving lights; I can't decide whether to laugh at how mistaken they are or begin to give them a lecture on how my experience exactly contradicts their presumptions.
 
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Mike:
How does the price compare between the Eos line and the Congo line? I think the reason everyone thinks Congo=movers is it busks better than the Eos line, or that is the common belief. I just wonder if the price of the Congo is higher than Eos, does it make sense for an all conventional rig.
I have never touched anything in the Congo family and have only used an Ion, so I have no frame of reference.
 
I have very little experience with Eos. I cannot comment on price, and can barely comment on features.

I can elaborate on how Congo evolved though, which I'll do when I get home tonight.
 
Mike:
How does the price compare between the Eos line and the Congo line? I think the reason everyone thinks Congo=movers is it busks better than the Eos line, or that is the common belief. I just wonder if the price of the Congo is higher than Eos, does it make sense for an all conventional rig.
I have never touched anything in the Congo family and have only used an Ion, so I have no frame of reference.

Actually, the Eos and Gio are just as good for busking movers and conventionals, its okay on the Ion but the price point is better on the congo line, since they don't deal heavily with cues. I think the top congo is about the price equivelant of the Gio and either can perform well with movers. Eos is where the money is for the full feature list, can both busk and playback quite a bit better than all. Its about how much money and if you see yourself ending up busking or cueing. if your just busking go with congo, if for any reason you think you may need extensive cuing go with something from the eos line.
 

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