Good for a new Sound System?

mattjh

Member
The following is the proposal for our theatre sound system. Our theatre department is rather small and we only do 2 shows a year. We do currently have a system, but it has been abused (for a lack of a better word) by our student council (they turn up the volume and have blown some of them out) and over all it is not ideal for theatre use. We only have one decently working microphone and about 8 other crap ones. Since I'm new to Control Booth and researching for sound systems in general, I have contacted a few people and wanted a general opinion on these choices before we purchase them. Our price sheet is attached.

Any comments or suggestions are greatly appreciated!

 

Attachments

  • new sound system price sheet.xlsx
    9.2 KB · Views: 266
How about some info on the theater. Seating capacity? dimensions? stage? proscenium? raked seating? balcony? any existing acoustic treatments? etc ...
 
Agreed, it's impossible to tell without knowing a lot more about your space. First thing I see though is that you have no NL4 cable on there, only XLR, so that may be something you'll need to rectify.

Is this list based on an "average" system design that you've created? Personally, I think this would be a better way to approach this, if you haven't already. Consider how you would place equipment for one of the most complicated shows you see yourself doing. Where are your speakers? Do you have a center cluster, and how many do you need to cover the house? Do you need delays? Side fills? Onstage monitors? Once you figure out your needs, you can start to choose equipment. Obviously you will be quite limited on what you can purchase, but you'll have a lot more luck on these boards posting something like "I'd love a UPA-1P, but I only have $xxx, what's a good substitute for my center cluster"?

This will also give you a lot more information about little things you may be missing, like a better idea of cable lengths, rigging hardware (chain, shackles, C-clamps, safeties). I assume you don't need any kind of com or video gear, as you haven't included any.
 
As others have said, without more information we cannot make any sort of intelligent decision. That being said, two shows a year, would you be better off renting gear for those two shows as opposed to purchasing an expensive amount of prosumer junk?

Starting at the top of your list, the Shure BLX88's are junk -- you'll have to be certain to make sure there are absolutely zero DTV stations overlapping their range else you will have spent your money on un-programmable junk. A Behringer Ultramizer is absolutely not a box I would want, an 'auto eq' is not a good replacement for an actual EQ. For the price of the Bose junk boxes you have spec'd, you could get an actual speaker box like QSC's K10 or K12 stuff. The Galaxy AS-900's you have spec'd...bad news, you can only have 6 on at a time TOTAL and this is assuming they aren't slamming right into a DTV station or into causing intermod with your BLX88's. They also happen to be the first channels to go when the FCC has their upcoming Incentive Auctions. I am confused what you intend to do with the 'Band Mixer' but that also is because it doesn't have nearly enough Aux's for all of the IEM's you spec'd and you have no other microphones other than the wireless spec'd and no XLR split snake... Why not just use the entire X32? Your mixer is alright.
 
Double that and I will drive down from Ohio and put you in a nice Danley rig.
Most of what has been spec'd is low end junk that might last you a few years if taken care of.
If you have the funds to replace it all again in a few years, you are set to go but I surely wouldn't want to write the warranty/guarantee for that system.
Keep the X32, ditch the rest and start over.
Buy once, cry once. Post some info about your space and we can further assist you in your project.
Good luck!
 
I apologize for not having the dimensions of the room. I did not have the exact dimensions of the room until today. The room is 45' long and 35' wide. It is not exactly a theatre, it is multi-purpose room that we use as the theatre and have all the lights and such installed in there. The walls are concrete, and the the ceiling/roof if metal and slope upward towards the where the stage usually is.

the Shure BLX88's are junk
What would you recommend instead of these? (The frequency they are on is: 514-542MHz, none of the tv stations in our area operate on all 24 frequencies)
A Behringer Ultramizer is absolutely not a box I would want
same question.
The Galaxy AS-900's you have spec'd...bad news
again, same. (The frequency is 659.0MHz)

The "band mixer" is a separate equalizer for the band so that way we would have on master volume (the band is only 5 people: 2 guitars, 1 bass guitar, keyboard, and drums)
I might not have specified it on the sheet, but the X32 should be the full version.
 
I can't speak to the quality of the mic's or in-ears mentioned, but themusicman is referring to the upcoming 600mHz spectrum auction. It's been delayed a few times now (currently scheduled for early 2016), but once the auction happens there will be a limited time allowed before using the spectrum becomes illegal. Basically, we KNOW that anything above 600mHz will be unusable in a few years, whether they still work great or not.

I'll second the position of doing away with the "band mixer." Where is the mixer going to be in relation to the stage? Cutting the extra board and the Ultramizers will buy you a digital snake box for the X32 if you need it.

What in the world do you plan on needing a $40 USB hub for? Plug the HD right in to the computer, and send everything else through a $2 hub.
 
Why would a band need any sound re-enforcement at all in a 45' x 35' room with hard surfaces? If anything, I'd be constantly telling them to play softer. Any louder than it probably already is and you won't have any audience left by intermission. Concentrate on micing singers and recorded sound effects.
 
Before spending any money, I'd first come up with a plan to prevent the aforementioned damage by students from occurring again. Otherwise, you're back to square one.

Second, I would definitely consider taking some of this windfall you seem to have and hire a local consultant to walk you through buying, building, and installing this system. Blown speakers can be repaired. If the cabinet is decent and a driver's blown you can often get replacement parts. Or if it's your amps, you might be trashing good speakers for the sake of spending money.

The BLX is definitely the low-end of the Shure market, but I've used them extensively in radio-heavy environments (with both the PG58 and BLX1's) without much trouble. In fact the only interference I've ever had was from a guitarist running his own BLX for his guitar on my frequency (which was annoying). That being said, Shure (and AT and Sennheiser) has a tool on their site to check out the frequency bands and any reputable dealer will help you determine which bands you need to occupy and which model you need to buy to make it work. They are programmable, but not as much so as you'd get from a box that cost more money, they have different submodels that operate within certain ranges of the legal frequencies, you have to figure out which submodel makes sense for your application.

If your dealer won't do that for you, go find someone else to buy from. I personally have had a lot of luck with Audio-Technica, specifically their ATW-3000 line. They sell a really nice headworn omni that works great for high school (and younger) kids and it costs $130 to replace when it inevitably dies (hopefully after a couple years or more). I have also had a positive experience with their customer service.

The Ultramizer (not exactly sure what that is) sounds like one of those "sonic maximizers" that really just roll up the 150hz range and pull down everything except the 3-4kHz band. I don't know if this is the same box, but I had a friend try and convince me that it's better than a graphic eq, and I remain unconvinced. A nice Behringer 31-band EQ will cost about the same. Not sure why you need 6 of these things? Other options if you wanted to bi or triamp or even just run more than two reinforcement speakers would be a DSP. There are several on the market that work well, but I like the DriveRack series from dbx.

Bose is not a name you frequently see in sound reinforcement, I would be cautious around anyone purporting it to be worth the money they want for it. I haven't bought PA horns or woofers in some time, but those numbers seem awfully high compared to what you could find from JBL or EV etc.

The walls are concrete, and the the ceiling/roof if metal and slope upward towards the where the stage usually is.

You can put the best system money can buy in that box and if it's not tuned right and the walls are untreated and the speaker placement isn't considered it's going to sound bad and you will be sad. If this is only two shows per year, what happens the rest of the time? I find it hard to think that the building just sits vacant the rest of the year. Where will the gear be stored? Can it be locked up? Does it need to be loaded out and mothballed?

Again, I really stress taking some of that $20,000 and putting in the pocket of someone who knows what they're doing and lives near you. Check references, visit their projects and observe their work. Talk to the people who have to use the equipment they spec'd 3-4-5 years down the line. Make sure the consultant knows what you need and can deliver. There are no shortage of snake oil salesmen, but a lot of these guys will give you the whole package and set it up proper and then train your staff how to keep it running top notch.
 
Last edited:
Just looked up the Super Sonic-izer.
The SU9920 boasts stellar frequency response from 25 Hz to 50 kHz. The Process control provides a boost of up to +12 dBu at 5 kHz. The Low Contour filter is capable of +12 dBu at 50 Hz.

Not sure why the 20-50 kHz range is important to anyone but dogs, but whatever.
 
I can't speak to the quality of the mic's or in-ears mentioned, but themusicman is referring to the upcoming 600mHz spectrum auction. It's been delayed a few times now (currently scheduled for early 2016), but once the auction happens there will be a limited time allowed before using the spectrum becomes illegal. Basically, we KNOW that anything above 600mHz will be unusable in a few years, whether they still work great or not.

I'm not arguing, but I just haven't seen anything definitive other than the FCC is auctioning part of the band in the relatively near future. I'm not buying anything wireless until it becomes more concrete, but do you have a link to any updated information? The last I heard was Shure was lobbying hard with them to carve out a big part of the 600mHz band and that the FCC has invented a new license for operators with 50+ devices in their building to allow them to reserve frequencies in the white space. I haven't heard anything baout losing the entire 600mHz band though.

http://www.fohonline.com/current-issue/75-company-411/11175-the-fccs-part-74-license.html
 
@StradavariousBone I was assuming, based on what happened with the last chunk auctioned off. (We all know what happens when you do that ;))

Looking in to it now, I see that the FCC has asked for comments specifically regarding wireless microphones. https://www.federalregister.gov/art...rum-access-for-wireless-microphone-operations

Looks like you might get to use them in the restricted spectrum if you become licensed? That's what I get from skimming the 83 pages of mumbo-jumbo.
 
Bose is not a name you frequently see in sound reinforcement, I would be cautious around anyone purporting it to be worth the money they want for it. I haven't bought PA horns or woofers in some time, but those numbers seem awfully high compared to what you could find from JBL or EV etc.
Would you recommend EV for theatre use?

We also do have some consultants that will come out, they did the sound system in the new building at our school and they are very reliable.

I find it hard to think that the building just sits vacant the rest of the year.
It doesn't sit vacant, it is used for other classes, when it is not being used by the theatre department.
 
My knock on the Shure you have spec'd is that they aren't freely tunable. You are limited to a total of 12 receivers in a single frequency range because they are fixed frequency. Quite literally any freely tunable wireless situation is better.

My knock on the "Ultimizer" is that it is a magic black voodoo box. If you want an equalizer, get an equalizer. Nothing beats a competent and trained operator who knows how to do work the gear -- even a basic equalizer is fairly simple to use and better than a black magic voodoo box of disputed use.

My knock on the Galaxy stuff is that you can only have SIX TOTAL on at a time, which is fewer than you spec'd. That leaves absolutely zero wiggle room if you run into any issues with an errant frequency in the area. Again get freely tunable gear.


I'm not arguing, but I just haven't seen anything definitive other than the FCC is auctioning part of the band in the relatively near future. I'm not buying anything wireless until it becomes more concrete, but do you have a link to any updated information? The last I heard was Shure was lobbying hard with them to carve out a big part of the 600mHz band and that the FCC has invented a new license for operators with 50+ devices in their building to allow them to reserve frequencies in the white space. I haven't heard anything baout losing the entire 600mHz band though.

Shure and Sennheiser are both lobbying, but not for a large carved out portion of the 600mHz band. They are reserving the naturally occurring white space of Channel 37 for our use, they used to have an additional 8mHz chunk in every market but they have since eradicated that option. The current FCC petition (comment period ended Nov. 16) brought up by Sennheiser was to have Channel 37, and reserve two ADDITIONAL channels in the band as a single 8mHz chunk really limits your ability to use IEM's and RF Mics at the same time. The sell-off is 600mHz down and could eventually dip into the mid 500's if there is enough interest in buyers.

The licenses for 50+ devices are non-exclusive, and the FCC is leaving it up to you to enforce your licensure. If you have another conflict with a user who doesn't have a license, you win. If you have another conflict with a user who has a license that overlaps yours, the two of you work it out. The caveat being emergency broadcasts - reporters covering emergency issues trump it all. You get them for 10 years, and then they will see what's up. You'll be added to the FCC use database so when people using IAS, WSM, S-MCD or whatever poll the database your freqs will come up with it. It's a pretty nifty new form of licensure, and I am interested to see what becomes of it. I'll know more as I'll be walking myself through the licensure process pretty soon. There are two hugely ambiguous phrases in the license release -- 1. They specifically say 50 wireless microphones, not 50 channels of RF but 50 microphones. I routinely have 75 channels of RF on a show, but usually in the form of RF mics, RF I-Com, and IEM's. They also don't say if the rental houses can get a license and it comes with the gear. I'm going to be getting a site license just in case on my owned gear, but I'm interested to see what that means when I rent surplus gear.
 
I have checked in to the frequencies for the stuff that we're using and most are not being used in our area. I have also updated the price list to reflect some changes I made (I had a few typos in numbers).
Quick question though:
My knock on the Galaxy stuff is that you can only have SIX TOTAL on at a time, which is fewer than you spec'd. That leaves absolutely zero wiggle room if you run into any issues with an errant frequency in the area. Again get freely tunable gear.
I have found a set for a little more that has multiple frequencies to choose from. Would you say these are better or go with something else? My other idea was, could you have 5 on one frequency and 5 on another?

Also:
the "Ultimizer" is that it is a magic black voodoo box, ... get an equalizer.
What brand of equalizer would you recommend?
 

Attachments

  • new sound system price sheet UPDATED 141125.xlsx
    9.6 KB · Views: 164
What brand of equalizer would you recommend?

If you like Behringer, they make a good one. I would guess the X32 can apply a GEQ over its outputs. I've never done this, but I know most (if not all) digital consoles have this ability. I'm not sure of the general school of thought of using the console to GEQ your main mix, but in my mind it takes out a failure point from the chain. The dbx DriveRack (and many other DSP's) will also provide a means to EQ as well if you go that route.
 
I would have some consultants come in and leave a lot of the system engineering and gear up to them. When you start talking speaker placement, processing, delay's, etc leave it to the professionals. Nothing wrong with picking some pics and what not yourself but fixing a space is something that should be done right once. The Bose 502's are great speakers in the vocal range for very small events but I think there are way better options out there. I'd personally stay away from them.
 
Also the 502's don't sound good unless you buy the bose controller. You can get close but they will never sound right without it.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back