How to Spend New Lighting Budget

[MrMagLit]

Hey CB,

I had a meeting a few months ago, and it looks like the high school (at which I am the TD) is receiving a district grant for upgrading our lighting. Yay!!! But we don't get to spend it until the summer, so we've been using our time to make sure we make the best decisions possible.

I can't stress to any of you how sad our situation is... We usually rent most of what we use, because we own so little. We currently own the following...

• 2 tripod-style lighting stands (up to 8'6" @ 75lbs)
• 2 Source Fours (26º, 575W)
• 6 Source Four PARs (575W)
• 2 Electro-Controls 3466 fresnels (1kW)
• 4 Altman 65Q fresnels (500W)
• 2 Altman 360Q ERS (6x12, 575W)
• 2 Strand Century LekoLites (31º and 23º respectively, 1kW)
• 2 Leprecon ULD-340 DMX-HP satellite dimmers
• Plenty of gels, gel frames, and miles of 5-pin DMX cable
• Leprecon LP612
• ETC Express 72/144 (yeah, waaay overkill... It's my baby )

So yeah, we're kinda limited. Everything we use is Edison, by the way... No Twist-Locks or StagePins here! Also, there are no permanently installed dimmer circuits, or any rigging/electrics above the standard floor plugs - anywhere...

HOWEVER, our new budget is $30K, so we have a little bit of room to play! (Assuming the district follows through... They warned us of the possibility that it could drop as much as $22K depending on their year-end expenses...)

Typically, we would have 4 lighting stands in FOH (in the back and on the sides), and 1 on SR, and 1 on SL. The location is unfortunate (for the front lights), because the throw is so freaking huge. Also, there is no way to hang anything on the 30' ceiling because (a) there is nothing to actually hang it on, and (b), because there is no way to get up there in the first place without renting a scissor lift.
And if you can't tell, we've never had a hang that lasts longer than 1 week at most, before we take it down to hand the gym back to the PE teacher.

We talked to several consultants in the area, with recommendations all over the place from "Install all the electrics and dimming and rigging for a few dozen circuits and then buy the luminaries when you get more money" to "Spend it on 2-4 high-end MLs that can sit high and won't need to be touched very often" to "Dozens of cheap DJ LEDs... Everywhere..." to "More stands, more satellite dimmers, more conventionals"

Tons of opinions, none of which match. I thought I would throw the ball out to all of you for some recommendations. I've attached a floor plan with some of the dimensions.

Personally, I was going to go for installing as many dimmer circuits and electrics as possible on a motorized batten in FOH, and maybe have a small batten on either side of the stage with a few circuits for side lights. Then we are set to purchase the actual fixtures in a few years, and have the electrics to support it. And I would much prefer to purchase proper, theatrical fixtures than cheap DJ equipment or budget cans...

The space is a gymnatorium. Seating and floor protection is brought out before each show, and taken down after. Many elements of productions have taken place on the floor, but we intend to move everything to the stage for future shows. Most productions are an ugly mash-up of small plays, choir performances, band performances, and dances.

If you're too lazy, busy, et cetera, to post a more comprehensive response, I've included a poll with a few of our consultant's recommendations that you could choose from...

Thanks for your input!

 

[soundlight]

Here's what I'd recommend given a situation and budget like that - buy a dozen Altman Phoenix LED 250W RGBW ellipsoidals. These will provide an excellent frontlight. Spend the rest of the budget on custom lighting cages to put them up in the proper positions - say 3 groups of 4 lights, one center, one left, one right. These will prevent stray balls from moving their focus. Focus them to provide a really nice front wash. You have infinite color changing abilities, and the Phoenixes are very easy to use in 4-channel RGBW mode on your Express and won't chew through your channel count in a hurry. 12 fixtures will only consume 48 channels of DMX. Have hardline DMX and power run to the fixtures, you will be able to just run (3) 20A circuits - one to each cage - and DMX to each location. Given extra money, I'd go for putting electrics up over the stage.

You can easily add lights over/to the side of the stage with rental, good frontlighting is invaluable.

ETA: You will want to be able to kill power to the Phoenixes. I'd recommend a Leprecon Watson at each location - this can be set to kill power to the fixtures when DMX goes away, so whenever the board is powered down or DMX is unplugged it will power the fixtures down and the fans won't run continuously.

 

[Les]

I absolutely agree with @soundlight. Your budget isn't quite high enough for a system of conventionals and their related infrastructure, but ML's are probably the last thing you need as well. I think a good system of LED frontlight, which can give you facelight AND color while requiring not much in the way of electrical needs or "expensive black boxes" would go a long way for you. While I don't usually say "you need to hang a bunch of LEDs for front light", in this case. $30k won't get you much of anything else so I think it is a good use of funds. Then it will be easy to rent in any "ground supported" systems for other uses.

Also, YES on the cages. New lights also become "new targets" and you do not want that.

Things I would NOT do:
1). Buy ML's. Even high-spec ML's require upkeep and attention. It probably won't be a situation where you can hang it and forget it's there. Also, you would have to upgrade your control which would eat in to your budget. After all that, you still wouldn't get the flexibility you need.

2). Buy cheap LEDs. These are great for DJ's who rotate out their inventory (which pays for itself), but not for a capital improvement project.

3). Buy conventional/dimming equipment. I don't think you should go down that rabbit hole. It won't be very portable or future-friendly, and the electrical needs will get expensive fast. If you're starting from (almost) scratch, just buy a few good-quality LED units when you can. With such a small system, you will get more bang-for-your buck per unit.

***

As for electrics over the stage - you probably will want them eventually. Note that you probably don't need any type of fly system. Just a few dead-hung pipes overhead with plenty of power AND data. Going up on a ladder is a pain, but dead-hung pipes are budget friendly. Being a gymnatorium, it will never be a grade A theatre, but at least you'll get more lighting positions. (Hopefully the ceiling height over stage isn't too terrible).

 

[np18358]

Also Could Not Agree More with the recommendation of the Phoenix Led. There are such a phenomenal product. You could get 12 of them, look at these cages (or a custom solution), then get power and DMX run, and probably have money left over for a cheaper console (ETC Smartfade ML/Strand 250ML) or a computer based solution. While they would work on the Express, something that is intended to be used with LED's will allow you to more easily mix and match colors. You might even have money left over to get the power and DMX run to other optimal positions over the stage, allowing you to add more cages/positions with other LED's (perhaps some mid-level pars) in the future.

With this system, you very easily be up and running, lighting a show in less than a minute. It would simply be plug and play, with either a console, or computer and dongle.

I don't think going with conventionals would be horrible (just not as beneficial, and efficient the LED's) , but I really wouldn't recommend the moving light option. I don't think you would like a DJ mover, and I don't think you would find a Theatrical moving light that would be the best fit in your situation.

Plus, if there is enough power in the room, there is really no reason why you couldnt have an electrician pull power for you to plug the satellite dimmers in, and use the existing S4 Pars and ERS'es that you have in addition to an LED fixture. A little more maintenance, but maybe not terrible if access isn't too hard.

 

[RonHebbard]

Hey CB,

I had a meeting a few months ago, and it looks like the high school (at which I am the TD) is receiving a district grant for upgrading our lighting. Yay!!! But we don't get to spend it until the summer, so we've been using our time to make sure we make the best decisions possible.

I can't stress to any of you how sad our situation is... We usually rent most of what we use, because we own so little. We currently own the following...

• 2 tripod-style lighting stands (up to 8'6" @ 75lbs)
• 2 Source Fours (26º, 575W)
• 6 Source Four PARs (575W)
• 2 Electro-Controls 3466 fresnels (1kW)
• 4 Altman 65Q fresnels (500W)
• 2 Altman 360Q ERS (6x12, 575W)
• 2 Strand Century LekoLites (31º and 23º respectively, 1kW)
• 2 Leprecon ULD-340 DMX-HP satellite dimmers
• Plenty of gels, gel frames, and miles of 5-pin DMX cable
• Leprecon LP612
• ETC Express 72/144 (yeah, waaay overkill... It's my baby )

So yeah, we're kinda limited. Everything we use is Edison, by the way... No Twist-Locks or StagePins here! Also, there are no permanently installed dimmer circuits, or any rigging/electrics above the standard floor plugs - anywhere...

HOWEVER, our new budget is $30K, so we have a little bit of room to play! (Assuming the district follows through... They warned us of the possibility that it could drop as much as $22K depending on their year-end expenses...)

Typically, we would have 4 lighting stands in FOH (in the back and on the sides), and 1 on SR, and 1 on SL. The location is unfortunate (for the front lights), because the throw is so freaking huge. Also, there is no way to hang anything on the 30' ceiling because (a) there is nothing to actually hang it on, and (b), because there is no way to get up there in the first place without renting a scissor lift.
And if you can't tell, we've never had a hang that lasts longer than 1 week at most, before we take it down to hand the gym back to the PE teacher.

We talked to several consultants in the area, with recommendations all over the place from "Install all the electrics and dimming and rigging for a few dozen circuits and then buy the luminaries when you get more money" to "Spend it on 2-4 high-end MLs that can sit high and won't need to be touched very often" to "Dozens of cheap DJ LEDs... Everywhere..." to "More stands, more satellite dimmers, more conventionals"

Tons of opinions, none of which match. I thought I would throw the ball out to all of you for some recommendations. I've attached a floor plan with some of the dimensions.

Personally, I was going to go for installing as many dimmer circuits and electrics as possible on a motorized batten in FOH, and maybe have a small batten on either side of the stage with a few circuits for side lights. Then we are set to purchase the actual fixtures in a few years, and have the electrics to support it. And I would much prefer to purchase proper, theatrical fixtures than cheap DJ equipment or budget cans...

The space is a gymnatorium. Seating and floor protection is brought out before each show, and taken down after. Many elements of productions have taken place on the floor, but we intend to move everything to the stage for future shows. Most productions are an ugly mash-up of small plays, choir performances, band performances, and dances.

If you're too lazy, busy, et cetera, to post a more comprehensive response, I've included a poll with a few of our consultant's recommendations that you could choose from...

Thanks for your input!

Hey CB,

I had a meeting a few months ago, and it looks like the high school (at which I am the TD) is receiving a district grant for upgrading our lighting. Yay!!! But we don't get to spend it until the summer, so we've been using our time to make sure we make the best decisions possible.

I can't stress to any of you how sad our situation is... We usually rent most of what we use, because we own so little. We currently own the following...

• 2 tripod-style lighting stands (up to 8'6" @ 75lbs)
• 2 Source Fours (26º, 575W)
• 6 Source Four PARs (575W)
• 2 Electro-Controls 3466 fresnels (1kW)
• 4 Altman 65Q fresnels (500W)
• 2 Altman 360Q ERS (6x12, 575W)
• 2 Strand Century LekoLites (31º and 23º respectively, 1kW)
• 2 Leprecon ULD-340 DMX-HP satellite dimmers
• Plenty of gels, gel frames, and miles of 5-pin DMX cable
• Leprecon LP612
• ETC Express 72/144 (yeah, waaay overkill... It's my baby )

So yeah, we're kinda limited. Everything we use is Edison, by the way... No Twist-Locks or StagePins here! Also, there are no permanently installed dimmer circuits, or any rigging/electrics above the standard floor plugs - anywhere...

HOWEVER, our new budget is $30K, so we have a little bit of room to play! (Assuming the district follows through... They warned us of the possibility that it could drop as much as $22K depending on their year-end expenses...)

Typically, we would have 4 lighting stands in FOH (in the back and on the sides), and 1 on SR, and 1 on SL. The location is unfortunate (for the front lights), because the throw is so freaking huge. Also, there is no way to hang anything on the 30' ceiling because (a) there is nothing to actually hang it on, and (b), because there is no way to get up there in the first place without renting a scissor lift.
And if you can't tell, we've never had a hang that lasts longer than 1 week at most, before we take it down to hand the gym back to the PE teacher.

We talked to several consultants in the area, with recommendations all over the place from "Install all the electrics and dimming and rigging for a few dozen circuits and then buy the luminaries when you get more money" to "Spend it on 2-4 high-end MLs that can sit high and won't need to be touched very often" to "Dozens of cheap DJ LEDs... Everywhere..." to "More stands, more satellite dimmers, more conventionals"

Tons of opinions, none of which match. I thought I would throw the ball out to all of you for some recommendations. I've attached a floor plan with some of the dimensions.

Personally, I was going to go for installing as many dimmer circuits and electrics as possible on a motorized batten in FOH, and maybe have a small batten on either side of the stage with a few circuits for side lights. Then we are set to purchase the actual fixtures in a few years, and have the electrics to support it. And I would much prefer to purchase proper, theatrical fixtures than cheap DJ equipment or budget cans...

The space is a gymnatorium. Seating and floor protection is brought out before each show, and taken down after. Many elements of productions have taken place on the floor, but we intend to move everything to the stage for future shows. Most productions are an ugly mash-up of small plays, choir performances, band performances, and dances.

If you're too lazy, busy, et cetera, to post a more comprehensive response, I've included a poll with a few of our consultant's recommendations that you could choose from...

Thanks for your input!

Hello Mr. Mag;

I'm in full agreement so far with the first two posters.
My questions / concerns are:
How are you fixed for access?
How high above finished floor would your lights be located?
Are you permitted access yourself or are only custodial staff alllowed to work at height?
Do you have some form of lift available; scissor-lift, boom, surely something better than a sectional scaffold on wheels?

I guess where I'm going is, how convenient / time intensive / frustrating will it be for you and yours whenever access is required?

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

Hey CB,

I had a meeting a few months ago, and it looks like the high school (at which I am the TD) is receiving a district grant for upgrading our lighting. Yay!!! But we don't get to spend it until the summer, so we've been using our time to make sure we make the best decisions possible.

I can't stress to any of you how sad our situation is... We usually rent most of what we use, because we own so little. We currently own the following...

• 2 tripod-style lighting stands (up to 8'6" @ 75lbs)
• 2 Source Fours (26º, 575W)
• 6 Source Four PARs (575W)
• 2 Electro-Controls 3466 fresnels (1kW)
• 4 Altman 65Q fresnels (500W)
• 2 Altman 360Q ERS (6x12, 575W)
• 2 Strand Century LekoLites (31º and 23º respectively, 1kW)
• 2 Leprecon ULD-340 DMX-HP satellite dimmers
• Plenty of gels, gel frames, and miles of 5-pin DMX cable
• Leprecon LP612
• ETC Express 72/144 (yeah, waaay overkill... It's my baby )

So yeah, we're kinda limited. Everything we use is Edison, by the way... No Twist-Locks or StagePins here! Also, there are no permanently installed dimmer circuits, or any rigging/electrics above the standard floor plugs - anywhere...

HOWEVER, our new budget is $30K, so we have a little bit of room to play! (Assuming the district follows through... They warned us of the possibility that it could drop as much as $22K depending on their year-end expenses...)

Typically, we would have 4 lighting stands in FOH (in the back and on the sides), and 1 on SR, and 1 on SL. The location is unfortunate (for the front lights), because the throw is so freaking huge. Also, there is no way to hang anything on the 30' ceiling because (a) there is nothing to actually hang it on, and (b), because there is no way to get up there in the first place without renting a scissor lift.
And if you can't tell, we've never had a hang that lasts longer than 1 week at most, before we take it down to hand the gym back to the PE teacher.

We talked to several consultants in the area, with recommendations all over the place from "Install all the electrics and dimming and rigging for a few dozen circuits and then buy the luminaries when you get more money" to "Spend it on 2-4 high-end MLs that can sit high and won't need to be touched very often" to "Dozens of cheap DJ LEDs... Everywhere..." to "More stands, more satellite dimmers, more conventionals"

Tons of opinions, none of which match. I thought I would throw the ball out to all of you for some recommendations. I've attached a floor plan with some of the dimensions.

Personally, I was going to go for installing as many dimmer circuits and electrics as possible on a motorized batten in FOH, and maybe have a small batten on either side of the stage with a few circuits for side lights. Then we are set to purchase the actual fixtures in a few years, and have the electrics to support it. And I would much prefer to purchase proper, theatrical fixtures than cheap DJ equipment or budget cans...

The space is a gymnatorium. Seating and floor protection is brought out before each show, and taken down after. Many elements of productions have taken place on the floor, but we intend to move everything to the stage for future shows. Most productions are an ugly mash-up of small plays, choir performances, band performances, and dances.

If you're too lazy, busy, et cetera, to post a more comprehensive response, I've included a poll with a few of our consultant's recommendations that you could choose from...

Thanks for your input!

Hello Mr. Mag;

I'm in full agreement so far with the first two posters.
My questions / concerns are:
How are you fixed for access?
How high above finished floor would your lights be located?
Are you permitted access yourself or are only custodial staff alllowed to work at height?
Do you have some form of lift available; scissor-lift, boom, surely something better than a sectional scaffold on wheels?

I guess where I'm going is, how convenient / time intensive / frustrating will it be for you and yours whenever access is required?

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[MrMagLit]

I guess where I'm going is, how convenient / time intensive / frustrating will it be for you and yours whenever access is required?

The ceiling is about 30' up... I am allowed at any height I wish to climb, as long as I don't fall.

Problem is, we have absolutely no way of getting up there besides renting a scissor. The space belonged to a church previously, and they had one sketchy and unprofessionally installed pipe up there, but even they gave up on those lights because of the height.

---

Also, thanks for the suggestions on the Phoenix LEDs! MSRP is about $2K though... Would it be worth moving up to a Source Four LED Lustr+?

 

[RonHebbard]

The ceiling is about 30' up... I am allowed at any height I wish to climb, as long as I don't fall.

Problem is, we have absolutely no way of getting up there besides renting a scissor. The space belonged to a church previously, and they had one sketchy and unprofessionally installed pipe up there, but even they gave up on those lights because of the height.

---

Also, thanks for the suggestions on the Phoenix LEDs! MSRP is about $2K though... Would it be worth moving up to a Source Four LED Lustr+?

The ceiling is about 30' up... I am allowed at any height I wish to climb, as long as I don't fall.

Problem is, we have absolutely no way of getting up there besides renting a scissor. The space belonged to a church previously, and they had one sketchy and unprofessionally installed pipe up there, but even they gave up on those lights because of the height.

---

Also, thanks for the suggestions on the Phoenix LEDs! MSRP is about $2K though... Would it be worth moving up to a Source Four LED Lustr+?

Hello again Mr. Mag;

If your budget is $30K in total, the provision of power, control , et al, will eat a substantial portion of your budget. If 12 Altmans cost $24K, you're already likely over budget.

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[theatricalmatt]

Production Advantage lists Altman Phoenixes for just under $1500. (I just saved you six grand. You're welcome. )

You'll find you can lose a lot of money in the difference in cost between vendors, so it's best to shop around -- or, in the public sector, request multiple bids. Your existing inventory is a little scatter-shot, so you might look to sell or trade to get a more consistent inventory. Or, hold onto them for emergency spares. You could probably invest in two more Leprecon dimmer packs for a small portion of your budget, but would give you enough channels to power all of the incandescents you own, and later make the inventory more consistent.

You could look into a motorized winch system; you could also investigate purchasing some truss and motors. Two motors, twenty feet of truss, and a decent power distro and motor controller might set you back six thousand. (I recognize that number!) If you went this route, I would suggest getting a motor controller with more capacity than you currently need, allowing you to add positions as you need. The motors and power cable could be made more or less permanent; you could strike the truss and lighting equipment for each show (and the motor controller, for safety reasons.) The joy of this is that not only can you create new positions more or less where you want them, but it wouldn't be too difficult to rearrange the entire space for a special event if you wanted.

 

[RonHebbard]

Production Advantage lists Altman Phoenixes for just under $1500. (I just saved you six grand. You're welcome. )

You'll find you can lose a lot of money in the difference in cost between vendors, so it's best to shop around -- or, in the public sector, request multiple bids. Your existing inventory is a little scatter-shot, so you might look to sell or trade to get a more consistent inventory. Or, hold onto them for emergency spares. You could probably invest in two more Leprecon dimmer packs for a small portion of your budget, but would give you enough channels to power all of the incandescents you own, and later make the inventory more consistent.

You could look into a motorized winch system; you could also investigate purchasing some truss and motors. Two motors, twenty feet of truss, and a decent power distro and motor controller might set you back six thousand. (I recognize that number!) If you went this route, I would suggest getting a motor controller with more capacity than you currently need, allowing you to add positions as you need. The motors and power cable could be made more or less permanent; you could strike the truss and lighting equipment for each show (and the motor controller, for safety reasons.) The joy of this is that not only can you create new positions more or less where you want them, but it wouldn't be too difficult to rearrange the entire space for a special event if you wanted.

Matt;
Note the O/P is in Canada, thus Canadian dollars.

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[soundlight]

Never go on MSRP. You should be able to get a good bit of a discount if you establish a good relationship with a dealer. I personally think that the Phoenixes are better for a school setting than the ETC unit because of the more complicated control required of the ETC unit. I also did a shootout of the series 1 and 2 Source 4 LED Lustr+ as well as the Phoenix 150w and 250w and the Strand PL4 and for two clients in two different situations, and to everyone else at the demos, the Phoenix LED 250w was the hands-down winner. RGBA or RGBW is up to you, but I'd go with the RGBW for frontlight. It's a nice warm white for the white instead of a cold white as in most other LED RGBW systems. You will be able to control the Phoenixes just fine with your Express until you able to jump up to an ETC Element or Ion later down the road. Don't spend money on control now, should you for some reason have any money left over put it in to more infrastructure, but I think you'll be about maxed out. If you have to, drop to 10 or 8 Phoenixes for now and add more later. You will probably still have enough light on stage. Each Phoenix 250W RGBW in full on mixed warm white is very close to the output of a conventional Source 4 with a long-life 575w lamp.

Re: cages vs. flying position:
I would still go with fixed lighting cages because as mentioned above, lights become targets in a school gymnatorium setting. Even if they're set up temporarily, it's an issue. When they're focused, they're focused. You've got the stage covered. You can light any of those areas of the stage with any color that you want to. I would leave room in the spotlight cages for a few more lights - so purchase cages for 6 lights instead of 4. Maybe instead of adding additional Phoenixes later on though, you're able to add three mid-spec LED moving lights after technology gets better (it's still moving at a mile a minute right now, so not really worth purchasing for a school at this time - newer, better fixtures come out every 6 months right now). Additionally, how many times do you have to fly that motorized position in before you get the focus you like? Yes, there is an art to bounce focus, but even then it's a rather rough art.

Re: accessing lights:
If you have a good focus of the stage, you shouldn't really need to access them for shows other than maybe a play or musical that needs a particular special. Additionally, I would venture a guess that your school system has a scissor or bucket lift that can get up that high somewhere with some maintenance dept. I often find that someone at the district office has one that goes around to the various schools for doing everything from replacing parking lot light bulbs to accessing HVAC and electrical equipment in the ceiling. Worth a call to figure that out. When I was in high school that's how it was, we had to request it a good 2-3 weeks in advance to get them to deliver it to focus the lights for the play or musical.

Re: install costs:
Here are your bare minimum costs for the system that I described:
1) Have a company install your spotlight cages. Some companies will custom fab these for you, some will order from a manufacturer such as SSRC or Times Square. They should be the type that has a pipe already mounted inside so you can just clamp fixtures to it.
2) Have an electrician install a single 20A circuit at each lighting location. This will power as many LED lights as you would be able to fit in that location. This is 3 separate 20A circuits, one per location. They just mount the socket right where the cage will go, and then you plug right in to that. No need to have theatrical-spec distribution boxes, multiple circuits, &c &c. We're just powering some LEDs here.
3) Get DMX run to each location. You can just have the signal pass thru from cage to cage, so you have in/out DMX receptacles that you link to with the DMX cable from the fixtures.
4) The obvious plain purchases: (8-12) Phoenix 250W RGBW (10-15) 5' DMX cable (6-8) 5' Powercon link cable.

If you get this installed, you can then devote all that equipment that you already have to lighting from the sides of the stage, or just in front, floor specials, &c &c. IF you have ANY money left over (which, realizing we're working in Canadian Dollars here, you probably won't - it'll be very close, and you may have to cut 2-4 of the Phoenixes to start) - get a pair of good quality crank stands. I'd recommend Applied L16s. These can go on the sides of your stage and crank up with a 5' t-bar full of lights and a dimmer pack or two.

The important thing is to get the cages and power and DMX runs in place. If you have to cut 4 of the Phoenixes, you can always add a dimmer pack with 2 or 3 lights up in the cages until you're able to afford the rest of the lights. Check in to getting a lift from the district. They may be pissy about it at first, but often they'll come around to the fact that you actually need to use it.

 

[de27192]

My thoughts...

HOWEVER, our new budget is $30K, so we have a little bit of room to play! (Assuming the district follows through... They warned us of the possibility that it could drop as much as $22K depending on their year-end expenses...)

So do you mean they could cut $22k from it - leaving you with just $8k? Frankly a budget of "between $8k and $30k" is such a wide band that it's very difficult for you to plan anything properly! As a result, I would use the MoSCoW technique: "Musts" "Shoulds" and "Coulds" and "Won'ts".

Identify things that the grant must achieve ; IE must include 2 purpose made FOH LX positions with dimmer and DMX outlets; must include sufficient spares and accessories for all purchased items - IE lamps, lamp holders, gel, etc.

Then identify things the grant should achieve - IE should include 6 on-stage booms on fixed bases; should include socapex outlets in all LX positions with patching facilities at the dimmers; should include training and associated costs, for all new equipment. These will be the things that are practically musts, but you could drop if the budget was really stretched.

Then identify things the grant could achieve - IE could include provision for booms on wheeled bases; could include provision of ethernet and DMX connectivity with all socapex points; could include 3 years annual budget for lighting consumables; could include lighting and rigging training for all technicians. These will be the things that, if there is sufficient money left in the budget, you would like to add to your order.

Then identify things you positively will not include in the order - IE Won't include provision for moving lights; Won't include provision for sub-hires. These will be the things you have identified will not be included in this round of spending, but could be considered in the future.

I find that this method can be really helpful when working with such a wide possibility of budgets.

Typically, we would have 4 lighting stands in FOH (in the back and on the sides), and 1 on SR, and 1 on SL. The location is unfortunate (for the front lights), because the throw is so freaking huge. Also, there is no way to hang anything on the 30' ceiling because (a) there is nothing to actually hang it on, and (b), because there is no way to get up there in the first place without renting a scissor lift.
And if you can't tell, we've never had a hang that lasts longer than 1 week at most, before we take it down to hand the gym back to the PE teacher.

Out of interest, why can you not leave LX hanging whilst the hall is in PE mode?

With your FOH bar at 30', and assumably stage bars slightly lower (due to stage height), you could (but no higher than 31') use an AAP Tallescope to access, rig, and focus lights on the bar. Tally's are quite financially efficient and do not require a power supply and are lightweight; so can be easier to use/store than powered access. Alternatively you could look at installing lineshaft winches on the underside of your ceiling, if the material and structure is fit for it - you would need a structural engineer to verify this which might consume a sizeable chunk of your budget.

If you're not going with movers, I would probably aim for fixed bars (perhaps on drop wires if you need to come a bit lower) and leaving your lanterns permanently rigged, then you can use a tallescope to re-arrange and focus them for shows. Using internally-wired lighting bars would make your life a lot easier, as the power and DMX will already be spread along the bar making it easy for you to plug things in and patch them in the console. If you can, get Ethernet (Cat6) wiring in the bars as well... you may not need it now but there will come a time when you do, and it's relatively inexpensive to get it installed when doing the build and running power and DMX anyway.

Now, for your consultants... sounds like a bunch of blaggers!

"Install all the electrics and dimming and rigging for a few dozen circuits and then buy the luminaries when you get more money"

This is someone who wants to sell you lots of copper because the mark up is good, and lots of nice little profiteering distro boards and that sort of thing. But the fact is this... without the lanterns the stage will be very dark.

"Spend it on 2-4 high-end MLs that can sit high and won't need to be touched very often"

Again, looking for good mark up. The fact is that movers have to be touched a surprising amount, very few are maintenance free, especially MH profiles with zoom / iris / framing shutters etc which tend to be at the needier end of the maintenance order.

"Dozens of cheap DJ LEDs... Everywhere..."

Great for nightclubs. Not theatres where the name of the game is detail, not quantity.

"More stands, more satellite dimmers, more conventionals"

I can see sense in this, but if you're not going anywhere why keep it all temporary?

The fact is that the ideal answer is probably a mix of all of the above.

 

[RickR]

I have to speak out against the LED profiles, be they Altman or others. The cost is just too high for a tight budget and you don't really need shutter cuts and gobos for a basic stage wash.

I would go with a fairly narrow beam PAR type fixture with really good white. Add some tophats to cut the unavoidable spill and you'll have most of the benefits at half the cost. Right now the ColorSource PAR is looking like the best bet except my hands on time with it is limited. Later you can upgrade if needed and still move the Pars to the stage or whatever. You could go with conventionals and good quality dimmer bars (Leprecon or ETC) from raw power. The price difference is in the installation of enough power.

30' is a long way up! Access is critical and will always be needed more than you think it will. Conversely I'm not too worried about balls. There really isn't much force left once they get up that high, and quality stage lights aren't all that delicate, except movers. They might get refocused for you but not much else unless they do baseball inside.

 

[theatricalmatt]

One reason why I advocated truss over installed box positions: You can mount units within the truss itself, so the truss deflects wayward balls, Frisbees, and gym sneakers. If deflecting projectiles remains an issue, you could rig a board / safety net / deflector field off the bottom of the truss, while maintaining the ability to adjust height, add or remove fixtures, and deal with maintenance issues more easily that a permanent position.

 

[JChenault]

.

I would go with a fairly narrow beam PAR type fixture with really good white. Add some tophats to cut the unavoidable spill and you'll have most of the benefits at half the cost. Right now the ColorSource PAR is looking like the best bet except my hands on time with it is limited. Later you can upgrade if needed and still move the Pars to the stage or whatever. You could go with conventionals and good quality dimmer bars (Leprecon or ETC) from raw power. The price difference is in the installation of enough power.

Im confused. If by ' a good white ' you mean a good white emitter so you can have a continuous frequency spectrum in your beam so fabric, faces, etc look good - I totally agree,

But the ColorSource PAR does not have white emitter. So how can you recommend it ?

 

[de27192]

One reason why I advocated truss over installed box positions: You can mount units within the truss itself, so the truss deflects wayward balls, Frisbees, and gym sneakers. If deflecting projectiles remains an issue, you could rig a board / safety net / deflector field off the bottom of the truss, while maintaining the ability to adjust height, add or remove fixtures, and deal with maintenance issues more easily that a permanent position.

This is a really good point, you could probably have some lightweight mesh panels with steel/alu edge to bolt on using hook clamps or something.

That said, truss is expensive because of it's structural properties and strength/weight ratio. It may work out cheaper to have a fabrications company produce a very lightweight truss - with thinner walls and less structural integrity - for the purpose of surrounding the speakers; than buying off-the-shelf heavy duty truss for a light-duty application

 

[derekleffew]

then you can use a tallescope to re-arrange and focus them for shows.

It might be noted that the tallescope is unavailable in the US. I don't know that it is officially banned by OSHA or some other authority, but definitely not available. I seem to recall growing prohibitions in the UK also.

 

[de27192]

It might be noted that the tallescope is unavailable in the US. I don't know that it is officially banned by OSHA or some other authority, but definitely not available. I seem to recall growing prohibitions in the UK also.

Since OSHA does not prohibit them, I know that people even recently have successfully imported tallys into the USA as they are very practical things.

In the UK... no that's a bit of a myth. The HSE (UK equivalent of OSHA), in collaboration with the ABTT (Association of British Theatre Technicians); came up with renewed guidance on how to use a tally more safely, especially when moving them with somebody in the basket. This included some additional add-on equipment you can buy. AAP (the manufacturer) also added a mechanical rescue kit for removing an incapacitated casualty in the basket. Of course there has been some negative response to this... "Oh we've been using tally's for years and never had an accident..... yadda yadda.... It's just all these kids working in theatre now don't know what they're doing..... yadda yadda.... oh it's just people making money... yadda yadda...." but personally I think it's good that somebody has come in and made it safe, rather than banning it.

In the US if you don't have any legislation for it, just rely on thorough risk assessment and training for your crew.

 

[derekleffew]

Good to know. Indeed, the tallescope can be quite handy at times, with the proper training and precautions. Although I haven't used, or seen, one since about 1983.

Moving with the basket occupied, I think, would be a no go regardless of what the (foreign, to the US) manufacturer states. And one would quickly tire of traversing up and down the ladder.

 

[de27192]

This was the argument in the UK - the fatigue one suffers going up down up down all day is as likely to cause an accident as the principle of moving it occupied.

Out of interest, why is it a no-go with the basket occupied? I do it frequently and, in my humble opinion, safely.

 

[theatricalmatt]

The HSE makes the argument better than most: http://www.hse.gov.uk/entertainment/pdf/tallescopes.pdf. I suspect some would argue that safety isn't a matter of opinion.

I've seen them for sale in the US, but you can find conventional scaffolding that costs less and is considered much safer. The footprint of standard scaffolding, up to a particular height, is about the same as a tallescope with its outriggers, plus you can field more than one technician, plus carry gear aboard the scaffolding.