Conventional Fixtures Lamp Question - Close-Proximity Front Light

[Les]

Hey all,

So I took on yet another project. A friend on mine is a music teacher at a local elementary school and their cafetorium is in need of a lighting re-do. They currently have only 4 Strand Par 64's on their FOH pipe. I am donating 4-6 360Q 6x9's (older units with new sockets) to supplement their front light.

Here's where it gets tricky: the ceiling is (relatively) low and the position is close. I would say that standing on the apron (3-4' above cafeteria level), the fixtures are near eye-level and 15' throw at most (I am 6' tall). I feel like 360Q's at 575w will be overly brutal, but what isn't in this situation? One thought I had was lamping the 360Q's with 375w GLG's and making sure the P64's are running at 500w.

Another conundrum I'm working through is the overhead lighting. There will be no "overhead stage lighting", but there is a pipe up there with 2 circuits repeating (total of 12 outlets). It would be a great place for a border light if there were 3-4 circuits but of course there are only 2. I am thinking about either hanging Altman R40's with red/blue only OR buying up a bunch of (grounded) Par 38's. The pipe is slightly recessed in a soffit -- just shallow enough to be a pain for borderlights because there is a PJ screen in the way so they would have to be yoked out... It would be a tight fit. Here's a layout of the space:



There are three unaccounted-for circuits, but one of those may be responsible for the proscenium down lights - I forgot to check. The cafeteria is all fluorescent troffers but it IS posible that they're controlled by a relay in the dimmer cabinet (which does house 9 dimmers, corresponding with the slider-station wallplate). One of the parents also noted that the risers they usually put on each side of the proscenium/apron area get no light, so I intend on rectifying that as seen above. We need to make sure grandma can see little Timmy while he's doing his recital!

Anything you guys might want to suggest or correct me on, I am all for it. The main goal is using what they already have and incorporating the 360Q's I have. I am still testing the waters on what they might be willing to buy (lamps, twist-lock connectors, Par 38's for the riser lights/possibly overhead stage).

I was only able to get one (poor) image of the FOH position before I got distracted:

 

[artable]

the dimensions of the risers and stage would be helpful here. Of course, I wouldn't be sad to have the hight of the stage and the exact throw distance from that FOH pipe, but I can understand that those measurements are hard to get sometimes.
Hmm! That is sorta the opposite of ideal for overhead lighting! But you can definitely get by with two circuits for overhead: unsaturated warm and unsaturated cool (R06 and R61 are what we used, if I remember correctly... I'll dig out that old light plot and find out for you the exact gel colors.). It's not going to be arts-y or LD worthy any time soon, but it looks pretty good. (at least with fresnels. I've worked with surprisingly few PARs in my time...)
Maybe My Q360s are in ridiculous need of a bench focus and dusting, but they ain't *that* bright. (which reminds me. Make sure someone is trained on the proper care, use, and maintenance of those fixtures. I'm sure you knew that already though. ) Maybe you could use two of the par 64s for the risers, and the other two + your q360s for the face light. if the risers are small, maybe keep the four PARs on the stage, and use two of the q360s for face light on the risers.
So that you or the school doesn't have to purchase a couple hundred dollars worth of par cans, you might be able to convince the school to have the kids make 'em out of coffee cans as an arts and crafts project. Of course, someone would have to inspect them to make sure they won't short out and burn down the school...

 

[Brandon Merkle]

I'm not convinced that DIY bar doors are the solution to the OPs problem. If he needs FOH, a better, probably just as cheap solution is to make Parcans out of coffee tins, and yokes for them out of flat metal shafts. You can even build gel frame holders if you're accurate enough.
@azylka, I think gaff tape that close to a conventional halogen is going to do unhappy adhesive melt-y things. I had a tech who gaff taped gel frames closed for some reason. Now we don't use those gel frames unless we have to.

Artable likes making Parcans! My two cents: In a space that appears that small (without exact throw distance from batten to stage it's a bit of a crap-shoot), you're going to get a lot of bounce wash from those babies So much so that you might have A little built-in ambient compensation for that missing overhead, once you factor in those border systems you were talking about. I agree that a low sat cool/warm in twoferred systems is the way to go if you do this. An item of note (as if you didn't know), those 360's run HOT. I brought a pipe down to about 6 feet from a set once, turned away for two minutes, looked back, and the set was smoking. Granted, Styrofoam set is not very heat-resistant, but something to keep in mind, if only for the comfort of any performers/presenters, and audience members.

 

[artable]

Artable likes making Parcans!

Guilty as charged.
@Les, you mentioned in another thread (I believe it was about those BB and cup fresnel lamp connectors. Relatedly, my light storage is full of corroded sockets.) that you had purchased some amount of additional equipment for this cafetorium. How is the instal going? Also, I just noticed that none of the PARs in that photo have any safety cables. I'd definitely take steps to remedy that ASAP.

 

[kicknargel]

I have to speak out against building your own fixtures. Amongst other problems, they won't cary a UL listing and will be a code violation. Not good, especially in a school.

Perhaps if you can focus the lights 'cross-stage rather than straight front they will be less noxious to the eyes.

 

[artable]

I have to speak out against building your own fixtures. Amongst other problems, they won't cary a UL listing and will be a code violation. Not good, especially in a school.

Perhaps if you can focus the lights 'cross-stage rather than straight front they will be less noxious to the eyes.

Yeah, I realize that now. Homemade fixtures have now place in such a regulated environment. I still think it's a valuable and interesting project though, and one that I will still undertake regularly. You can be sure I won't use them in my theater anytime soon though.

 

[kicknargel]

Let's not mention the "Light Board" I made at home at 10 years old. You know, to run the clip lights hung from the drop ceiling grid. With the floral cellophane as gels.

 

[artable]

I vote we mention that extensively. How'd it preform?

 

[Les]

Sorry guys - I haven't been watching this thread all weekend. Thanks for all the replies.

@artable - thanks for your feedback. No, we won't be building any par cans . I did place an order for 8 Altman Par 38's which will be written off in my taxes. They will be used on the pipe directly behind the grand drape. They will be loaded with frost (diffusion) and possibly 50/50 red-blue but that will just be something I'll need to try and see how it works. The main goal is to get the stage lit, with maybe some room for creativity. I'm not a novice at this though I may at times sound like one - but thanks for your advice no matter how "elementary", so to speak.

As for distances - I have only been in the space once as my schedule is pretty busy. I hoped for more visits before the install, but it probably won't happen. I can say that the distance is so short and selection of instruments so minimal that the exact footage doesn't really matter. They're getting 6 360Q 6x9's FOH and they're going to like it. Per the advice of my lighting rep I will be lamping them to 575 rather than 375 - they can back them off if they're too bright. @kicknargel - thanks for your advice on cross-lighting. I will implement that.

The existing pars: I am doing my best to eliminate them completely. I will be hanging the 360Q's and in the unlikely event that more is needed, I will bring them back. But I don't honestly anticipate that happening. In the end, they don't need much more light -- it just needs to be more controlled. I did note the lack of safety cables. I have plenty and they are being added to the install along with gel frames, training, my cell phone number, etc.

I thought about using the existing Par 64's to light the risers (which will essentially be pipe-ends to the FOH) but the throw is extremely short. In the 10' range. I am using a Leviton 120w par 38 can (diffused) to accomplish this. It doesn't need to be stage levels of brightness. Just enough to keep them out of the inky darkness.

Nothing has been installed yet - still servicing the 360Q's and getting lenses cleaned, sockets replaced, new Heyco cord grips installed, and replacement framing shutters (being donated). I am also waiting on a donation of twist-lock (L5-20) connectors to install on all fixtures before I bring them to the facility. As soon as the rest of the parts arrive I will be ready to install and I'll let everyone know how it went, as well as more detailed before/after pictures.

TL;DR:

I am using 6x 360Q 6x9's FOH
8x Altman Par 38 on stage
2x Leviton Par 38 FOH for risers

 

[artable]

By the way, I still think you should convince the principle to make all the teachers build Parcans for their next arts and crafts project. Maybe that's just me wanting to live vicariously though a random group of elementary kids. (Actually, its totally just me wanting to live vicariously through a bunch of elementary kids. So it goes.)

 

[kicknargel]

Oh, my light board performed solidly; not one fire and many high-quality Church Lady knock-offs were created down in that basement. If only the VHS had survived.

 

[DELO72]

A suggestion-- when dealing with low ceilings and short throws, I always would Yoke the units up and away from the stage. This will give you another 3-5" of height and distance from the actors. Not a lot by any means, but every little bit helps. GLG HP375 lamp is a good idea.

 

[Les]

A suggestion-- when dealing with low ceilings and short throws, I always would Yoke the units up and away from the stage. This will give you another 3-5" of height and distance from the actors. Not a lot by any means, but every little bit helps. GLG HP375 lamp is a good idea.

My supplier convinced me to go with the GLA, but I haven't actually put the order through yet... My first instinct was the GLG also, and I might stick to that.

Here's a still from a video provided by one of the PTA members. Still doesn't give a great picture, but it is a better over all sense of what I've got to work with -- and the problems I'm working to solve. I might even have to frost the 6x9's but I'll see how it turns out when I do the hang. I will likely go for three areas, each cross-lit as much as possible.

 

[DELO72]

My supplier convinced me to go with the GLA, but I haven't actually put the order through yet... My first instinct was the GLG also, and I might stick to that.

Here's a still from a video provided by one of the PTA members. Still doesn't give a great picture, but it is a better over all sense of what I've got to work with -- and the problems I'm working to solve. I might even have to frost the 6x9's but I'll see how it turns out when I do the hang. I will likely go for three areas, each cross-lit as much as possible.

Another suggestion-- Use Frost gel or even silks to spread the beams horizontally. That will give you a much smoother field and help eliminate much of the hot spots. What you could do is buy one GLG, and one GLA, and then go with whichever works best before committing on a full case of one or the other....

 

[kicknargel]

That picture: yeesh.

 

[soundofsparks]

My supplier convinced me to go with the GLA, but I haven't actually put the order through yet... My first instinct was the GLG also, and I might stick to that.

Here's a still from a video provided by one of the PTA members. Still doesn't give a great picture, but it is a better over all sense of what I've got to work with -- and the problems I'm working to solve. I might even have to frost the 6x9's but I'll see how it turns out when I do the hang. I will likely go for three areas, each cross-lit as much as possible.

What is your lamp size? Make sure you're using WFLs at that range.

Also, maybe see if you can go down to Altman 360Q 4.5x6.5.

If you can do that you should be able to have plenty of coverage... and I would look at hanging the PARs at top light and use 3 360Qs at the ends of the FOH pipe to have 3 areas of 2 color front light that won't be flat on. You can also then have three areas of 2 color top light. If you don't have the coverage as toplight, move them to the ends of the over stage pipe and use as two color back diagonals. I think the diagonal will be your friend here to create some interest in the design.

 

[Les]

What is your lamp size? Make sure you're using WFLs at that range.

Also, maybe see if you can go down to Altman 360Q 4.5x6.5.

I am hoping to eliminate the pars entirely as they're what already exist in the space and I don't care for them in this particular situation. I don't know what lamps are installed but I will make it a point to make sure they're WFL's in case I leave them. Unfortunately I won't be able to go to 4.5x6.5's -- the 6x9's are what I already have and am donating to the project. I have a feeling that they will give good coverage since I will be putting in 6 units. I should get an 8'-10' beam from this distance. If not, I will try diffusing them. There will be a bit of trial and error. I am lighting the risers with some Leviton Par 38's. I think the hanging position is literally 8' from where the risers will be placed so that should be sufficient (doesn't have to be super well-lit).

I wish the stage area (behind the drape) was wired for three circuits rather than two. If there was a 3rd, I'd put in borderlights. But you know what they say: wish in one hand...
Since they repeat (121212121212), I will be hanging 8 Altman Par 38's with 300w R40 lamps. I will alternate them in red/blue, amber/blue, or some other useful combination. I agree about diagonals, and will implement it as much as possible. There's only one pipe directly behind the drape so I won't get any back light, but right now there is nothing there, so this will be an improvement. Hopefully I can start bringing stuff in next week.

 

[Les]

It's getting there. Still need to touch up the focus, do a little cable management, and hang the Par 38's over the stage.

 

[kicknargel]

It's getting there. Still need to touch up the focus, do a little cable management, and hang the Par 38's over the stage.



/QUOTE]

And paint those stage walls black.

 

[Les]

Lol... I have no dog in that fight.