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lamps for old altman 360?

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by isleseat, Feb 16, 2004.

  1. isleseat

    isleseat New Member

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    We've got some of the old (off axis) altman 360 lekos. The new burner units are bipost (2 pin) rather than prefocus and I can't for the life of me figure out what lamp is long enough to get the fixture to work properly. Or should I just chuck the old instruments, buy some S4's and move into the 21st century? Thanks.
  2. Nephilim

    Nephilim Member

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    If ship doesn't have it memorised, I can check the instruments at school; we have one (count 'em) one 360Q with a prefocus lamp that hasn't been used forever.
  3. stagedoorTD

    stagedoorTD New Member

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    I replace my sockets with those out of the fresnells, same base type so I can keep using the same lamps. Its a cheep way, but it works. I can't remember the last time I actually ordered something for an altman from altman. I have about 100 360Q's and about 75 old 360's. I still use them alot.
  4. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Given the fixture is Altman because there was a lot of fixtures very similar to it, the radial mount lamp base would be what you describe to a Altman #360 which is pre 360Q or Quartz/halogen series. In other words, the fixture was designed for the larger incandescent T-20 (2.1/2" wide) bulbs thus the large cutout in the reflector and long length of the lamp base to the focal point due to lamp cooling needs. Needed the extra space for letting the bulb cool sufficiently given the wattage. It’s lamp was also off center because the original incandescent lamps such as the DNS or DEB were designed to burn base up ±30° due to filament sagging/support requirements. Having the lamp off at an angle allowed for this in most hang positions. It’s still a good rugged fixture and it’s design was revolutionary for it’s time given the purpose is to put focused light on the stage.

    It is using the same lamp base as a Fresnel a medium prefocus (P-28s), and this is a standardized design. Altman probably buys from the same source as from who StagedoorTD buys his from, or those sources buy from Altman. There is only a few companies making this lamp base and all are good in quality as far as I know. I expect it’s from Sylvania, Altman (who ever is making it for them), Bender or Wirth, otherwise use of a lamp base other than that might void the UL listing given these are the listed lamp base manufacturers for the Altman 360Q so it’s safe to assume the same companies would be authorized to make the #360 lamp base. Though I think Leviton also makes the P-28s and it would be fine and listed for the fixture I would assume. Ushio should also make the lamp base though it might not be authorized for use in the fixture given their Medium Bi-Pin (G9.5) lamp bases are not authorized for use in the #360Q.

    As for the lamp itself, because it’s a halogen upgrade to a incandescent lamp, the standard Fresnel BTL series lamp will not be extended enough in length to match up to the focal center of the fixture. Unlike with the 360Q axial mounted lamp base series, after the initial incandescent to halogen upgrade to the lamp, there has been no further improvements to the lamp so it’s always going to be a little less bright and you can’t put in the FLK series of 115v lamps to brighten it up. There is that detail of the huge hole in the reflector anyway in the way of efficiency.

    Still it’s a decent fixture to put light on the stage. Plan on using it for the more amber lighting and less bright/intense backup lighting and it should prove very useful. One thing you could probably do to improve it’s output is to check to see if the fixture has green or blue lenses. If they appear greenish in color, better quality replacement lenses would be worth the investment if you intend to keep the fixture. This will provide a more clean white light output. You should also have standardized parts for lens trains so such fixtures could easily fit into the normal inventory no matter what position used at given a lens train swap. It's probably been 5 years since I last touched a radail leko so there are things I would tend to forget for sure about.

    As opposed to a Fresnel lamp having a lamp center length of 2.3/16", this fixture will center with a 3.1/2" lamp. You cannot use a Fresnel lamp in a #360 fixture, unless stagedoorTD is implying he is blocking up the fixture’s lamp base by 1.5/16" in which case it would probably very successfully take a standard BTL series Fresnel lamp. I don’t recommend doing this however without expert supervision especially in a school because it would void the UL listing for the fixture. Note also that the BTL series of lamp is for all intensive purposes also a dead end. There is no further improvements planned for it.

    There are many lamps for the #360 fixture. Many are becoming more and more rare to find, other’s are high output but too short in life.

    The EGE is the primary 500w/120v halogen upgrade lamp for the fixture. There are some very slight differences in output and color temperature, but in this fixture I don’t think you will be able to tell the difference. Go for what’s cheapest between GE, Philips, Osram, Ushio and Wiko. I believe they all still make this lamp, though I did not see it listed from Osram recently. I do not know how many more years the lamp will be made from any of them however.

    The best lamp you can put in the fixture would be a 750w/120v EGG halogen lamp. Again, go for the above companies in who is cheapest and I don’t know how much longer at least GE, Osram and Philips will continue making the lamp. My theory is that this lamp in the #360 should about approximate the output of a normal #360Q fixture with upgraded 575w lamp to GLA or HX-601 for long life. It might be a bit more dim in color temperature but the output will be about the same given the higher wattage.

    There are quite a bit of other lamps available for the fixture including 1Kw lamps, but I would stick with these two.

    Should you need parts for the fixture, and given Altman no longer sells the parts at least for the lamp base casting because the rest of the parts would be similar to the 360Q, than I repentantly had it confirmed that Varalight/Hub/Dimatronics in the Chicago area still exists as a company and it was known as a retailer for old fixture parts. They would easily have parts for the #360.
  5. DMXtools

    DMXtools Senior Team Emeritus

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    Varalight/Dimatronics is a neighbor, sort of - they're in Crystal Lake, IL. They're owned by Altman, by the way. Listed in my local phone book at 1-815-455-4400.

    John
  6. stagedoorTD

    stagedoorTD New Member

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    I would like to apologize in case I was not clear in what I said. I was refering to the lamp base itself, not the lamp. I would not try to put a BTL in a 360, though, the thought of it did humor me. I was only saying that, instead of spending big bucks on replacement parts from altman, buying aftermarket T-20 lamp base that you would put in a fresnel. I would not ever recommend to build up a lamp base. It is a great way to ruin a fixture. I will try to be more clear in my posts in the future.
  7. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    No, it was me I think your post was clear enough. perhaps but ... never mind.


    Anyway, still it might be possible as a theory or concept to use a BTL series lamp in a #360 line.

    As I said, all you would have to do is block up the lamp base 1.5/16" as long as you kept it in the same position, just higher. Say a piece of 16ga 1x2 box tubing with a 5/16" aluminum plate added to it given it would be a custom fitting. The lamps are basically the same in the filament between the BTL and the old incandescent designed for the fixture c-13D - at least by filament supports. The EGE should have a smaller filament size but not by much cc-8. The overall size of the filament should be similar enough.

    Just a thought, but not one for a high school to be experimenting with.

    Hey DMXtools, does Varilight buy unused parts? I have a file cabinet full of 360Q parts and boxes of lenses and lens trains but no fixtures. Dumping them off there would be a better solution than moving with them or sending them off to cold storage. I know, I know, "Gee I don't know, why don't you call them?" Anyway interesting tidbit about Altman owning them. Very intresting, any website? I'm fairly certain they pre-date Altman as a company. Lots of history I'm sure.
  8. Lightingguy32

    Lightingguy32 Member

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    as Ship has said before, a 360Q is not a fixture with a prefocus lamp socket. That would be the 360 incandescent series.

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