Design Lighting for a tour?

[rochem]

Bring your own stuff unless you can deal with completely shuffle around your lineset schedule based on where the house has electrics. Unless you can be extremely flexible with what goes in the air, bring your own stuff.

This is something I've been wondering for a while. Do most large roadhouses have dedicated electric battens, like raceways or something, or do they use drop boxes, or do they have no circuiting at all on battens? The roadhouse where I work has a lot of wall pockets with inputs for 2P&G as well as Soca, but there's no circuiting at all in the air. Even for tiny shows in the space we run mult from the pipes down to floor level to tie into the house dimmers.

 

[jamesmiller]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I do have some questions though. Coming from a very small community theater, I am unsure of some of the terms used in here.

First off, what is a SoCo? I'm not aware of the term. Is it a power connection / distro box? At the theater I tech for, all lights run down to the dimmers on SL, so there really is no distribution box.

This leads me to my second question. What is the best way to rig a pre-wired and hung truss? It seems easiest to me to use hangable dimmers, and just hang the dimmers on the truss with the lights, and then connect all the dimmers to a power distribution box at the end of the truss, which can allow for only 1 cord to connect to road power... That way we dont have 12 - 20 wires running down from each truss to a floor dimmer system.

Also, what would a motor package do for a truss? Seems to me that all truss's could be rigged to a completely lowered batten. I'm not sure I follow what "motor package" means here.

As for instruments, we have:
6 x Altman 360Q 11 degree
10 x Altman 360Q 55 degree
28 x PAR 56 1000 watt (Wide and Narrow beam)
20 x PAR 38 150 watt Pin Spot
15 x Altman Q-Lite 1,000 watt Stage Flood

By the way, they have decided on the show: A musical version of the Secret Garden. This means the light plot will be a little more simple than I expected it to be.

Now that we have the show down, I'm waiting for the lighting designer to do the light plot.

Anyway, Thanks!

 

[len]

First off, what is a SoCo? I'm not aware of the term. Is it a power connection / distro box? At the theater I tech for, all lights run down to the dimmers on SL, so there really is no distribution box.

SoCo is Socapex. A term meaning a 19-wire cable which is used for power. Also known as multi-pin. Socapex - entertainment connectors for stage lighting, audio, SL61 19 pins It allows you to get 6 circuits of electricity to a point in one cable.

This leads me to my second question. What is the best way to rig a pre-wired and hung truss? It seems easiest to me to use hangable dimmers, and just hang the dimmers on the truss with the lights, and then connect all the dimmers to a power distribution box at the end of the truss, which can allow for only 1 cord to connect to road power... That way we dont have 12 - 20 wires running down from each truss to a floor dimmer system.

I suppose that would work, but it's not a traditional way of doing it. Traditionally, a "feeder" cable carries electricity to the dimmer rack and/or distro panel, then each set of 6 circuits or dimmers is run via the socco/soco/multi/etc. to the pipe or truss. From there, you can either use a fan out or a box of some type to connect to the individual instruments. Again, that's not the only way, but it is fairly common in the touring industry.

Also, what would a motor package do for a truss? Seems to me that all truss's could be rigged to a completely lowered batten. I'm not sure I follow what "motor package" means here.

Motors are typically attached to a fixed point in the building's roof truss via a heavy steel cable and shackle. Then the motor is suspended over the truss and the whole assembly is lifted in the air via the motors. For each truss (which could be as short as 5' or sections connected to make a long piece) you need a minimum of two motors. The power for the motors and also control are run back to a controller. Motors come in different capacities. I've seen as small as 1/4 ton up to about 2 ton. There may even be bigger ones. If you have battens, typically don't hang motors off them. You would typically take a 6' sections of unistrut, hang your lights off them, pre-wire them so they could be run back to a single connection per section of unistrut, and transported on a meat rack. Used Meatrack :: James Thomas Engineering For Sale - Solaris


Now for the bad news. No offense, but the kind of questions you're asking indicate a lack of experience with this kind of stuff. You might be in over your head, so getting from design to execution might be beyond your current capabilities.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

As for instruments, we have:
6 x Altman 360Q 11 degree
10 x Altman 360Q 55 degree
28 x PAR 56 1000 watt (Wide and Narrow beam)
20 x PAR 38 150 watt Pin Spot
15 x Altman Q-Lite 1,000 watt Stage Flood

This means the light plot will be a little more simple than I expected it to be.

Now that we have the show down, I'm waiting for the lighting designer to do the light plot.

If you are going to have a simple light plot, and by the looks of the inventory you could take with you it seems you will, I think your best bet would be to use the theatre's in house inventory, in many cases it will probably be better than what you have. Include a plot with the tech rider and/or contract, and in the contract have a lighting section and specify things you want, aka a lavander top light system, R02 and R60 Front Light Systems, a special DSC. This will be the most painless way to do it.

 

[SteveB]

"Now for the bad news. No offense, but the kind of questions you're asking indicate a lack of experience with this kind of stuff. You might be in over your head, so getting from design to execution might be beyond your current capabilities."

Agreed. I too am getting a sense of lack of experience in putting all this together and I don't think the posts here on CB can possibly answer all the questions that crop up and this is not the forum to attempt to gain such experience. As example, there is no such thing as a PAR56 with 1000 watt lamps.

At this point, having the LD do a tour plot is helpful, but only if the venues can support it. Who's going to be travelling with the company to make the decisions as to what to keep and what to cut ?. Is there a tour Lighting Supervisor ?. Is the listed inventory the limitations that the LD has to go with ?, or is the design a wish list ?.

I have many, many concerns here...

Steve B.

 

[Footer]

This is something I've been wondering for a while. Do most large roadhouses have dedicated electric battens, like raceways or something, or do they use drop boxes, or do they have no circuiting at all on battens? The roadhouse where I work has a lot of wall pockets with inputs for 2P&G as well as Soca, but there's no circuiting at all in the air. Even for tiny shows in the space we run mult from the pipes down to floor level to tie into the house dimmers.

The current fad in theatre design is to not do dedicated electrics. If the venue is made for touring companies, then you do not want dedicated electrics. This allows the space to be much more flexible in terms of lineset schedules. However, it is a double edged sword. You can not just hang a light and plug it in. You have to hang the light, cable it, deal with the picks for the mult run, and all that fun stuff. Not only that, but it can double the time a hang can take, costing money.


Also, as others have said, I don't think the OP is ready to take the show out. You might want to look for a touring Lighting Director/Supervisor who has some experience to give you a hand on taking the show out. After a few stops, I am sure you could take the show over. sd

 

[Esoteric]

At the PAC the only dedicated electrics were the cyc electrics.

Other than that they used drop boxes.

Yeah, it sounds like you might be way in over your head. You might need to hire a TD to put the rig together for you.

I have never seen anything bigger than a 2 ton, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Mike

 

[MSLD]

I think that if ETC did the installation in the theatre, odds are that there are drop boxes. At least thats how it is at our theatre. We only heve one dedicated electric and 4 more electrics with drop boxes. ETC experts correct me if i am wrong.

 

[SteveB]

I think that if ETC did the installation in the theatre, odds are that there are drop boxes. At least thats how it is at our theatre. We only heve one dedicated electric and 4 more electrics with drop boxes. ETC experts correct me if i am wrong.

ETC will build it any way you want, and they have very nice raceways, of which I have 4x40ft, ea. with 24 circuits. My cyc lights are 2x6 circuit Soca.

The debate is endless as to Raceway vs. Soca/Veam/Pyle Nat'l 6 circuit, or drop boxes. Ea has their advantages and are specified as per the users desires and needs.

We went to raceways, as even though it's a road house, we keep a full plot rigged and there are precious few linesets where electrics can live anyway. When we get a big tour, they use trusses and we strip the plot and fly our electrics/raceways out of the way.

Steve B.

 

[Footer]

ETC will build it any way you want, and they have very nice raceways, of which I have 4x40ft, ea. with 24 circuits. My cyc lights are 2x6 circuit Soca.

The debate is endless as to Raceway vs. Soca/Veam/Pyle Nat'l 6 circuit, or drop boxes. Ea has their advantages and are specified as per the users desires and needs.

We went to raceways, as even though it's a road house, we keep a full plot rigged and there are precious few linesets where electrics can live anyway. When we get a big tour, they use trusses and we strip the plot and fly our electrics/raceways out of the way.

Steve B.

A mixture of both is by far my favorite. At least then you have the option to add another electric or to add circuits to an existing electric.

To each their own.

 

[jamesmiller]

Sorry for taking so long to reply to this thread, I have been very busy the past few days, and have not had time to get online much.

To answer a few of your questions:

If you are going to have a simple light plot, and by the looks of the inventory you could take with you it seems you will, I think your best bet would be to use the theatre's in house inventory, in many cases it will probably be better than what you have. Include a plot with the tech rider and/or contract, and in the contract have a lighting section and specify things you want, aka a lavander top light system, R02 and R60 Front Light Systems, a special DSC. This will be the most painless way to do it.

That is the inventory that is currently owned by the company. There is more money available for the purchase of additional instruments, but we are waiting until the master light plot is done, so that the lighting designer can give us a good idea of what others are needed.

Now for the bad news. No offense, but the kind of questions you're asking indicate a lack of experience with this kind of stuff. You might be in over your head, so getting from design to execution might be beyond your current capabilities.

I don't know if I would say I don't have the experience. I would say I don't know a lot of the industry terms, such as "Soco". After you explained what "Soco" means, I understand what it is. Also, I have never had to deal with hoisting a truss up into a non-batten grid or anything of that nature, so I was unsure of what you would use a motor for when using a batten system.

If you have battens, typically don't hang motors off them.

Exactly. Because we have such a complex fly plot, we will only be able to perform in theaters which have a full fly system, including battens. Therefore, that's not really a big concern.

I suppose that would work, but it's not a traditional way of doing it. Traditionally, a "feeder" cable carries electricity to the dimmer rack and/or distro panel, then each set of 6 circuits or dimmers is run via the socco/soco/multi/etc. to the pipe or truss. From there, you can either use a fan out or a box of some type to connect to the individual instruments. Again, that's not the only way, but it is fairly common in the touring industry.

I have came up with a fairly good way of doing it I think. We are buying a total of 12 of the Behringer LD6230 6 channel dimmer's, Duo-Truss for the hanging, and I am going to pre-wire and circuit each truss, which will come apart in sections. We will be using a Socapex cable to run from the truss's down to the dimmers, with a break-out box on the truss to connect the instruments.

From the comments here, that seems to be the best way of doing it. While I have considered it, using the house plot is probably not a good idea, even though I'm sure most houses have a proper amount of lights. This way we have the best options for ourselves when we arrive.

Also, I will be going along on the "tour" as the technical director, and I'll be in charge of insuring the light plot is hung and connected in the proper way. Our lighting plot designer is going to do several different sub-plots, for smaller theaters.

Since this is not really a full-tour, renting stuff is pretty much out of the question. From what I'm getting from the office, they will only be going out on "mini-tours", aka: one venue at a time, then back home.

I also just got word today they might be changing their mind on the show again... which sucks because we already have the lighting designer working on a plot for "The Secret Garden". They are now wanting to do a version of "Pirates of Penzance". I wish they would make up their mind, as if they don't hurry, there gonna miss any opportunity to get the show out by fall...

Thanks!
James

 

[coolbeam]

...I have came up with a fairly good way of doing it I think. We are buying a total of 12 of the Behringer LD6230 6 channel dimmer's, Duo-Truss for the hanging, and I am going to pre-wire and circuit each truss, which will come apart in sections. We will be using a Socapex cable to run from the truss's down to the dimmers, with a break-out box on the truss to connect the instruments. ...

Have you given any thought as to how you're going to obtain the thirty-six 20A circuits (three per six-pack), preferably via a UL1640 distro? You DO realize that the cost of a panel-mount female 19-pin, multi-cable, and break-out is going to cost at least twice as much as each of your proposed dimmer packs, don't you?

 

[jamesmiller]

Have you given any thought as to how you're going to obtain the thirty-six 20A circuits (three per six-pack), preferably via a UL1640 distro? You DO realize that the cost of a panel-mount female 19-pin, multi-cable, and break-out is going to cost at least twice as much as each of your proposed dimmer packs, don't you?

I am aware of the cost. Problem is, we are going to be faced with the same expense in cable, breakout box's, etc no matter which dimmers we use. So the less expensive the dimmers, the less expensive the overall system will be.

Overall, the cost of the break-out box, multi-cable and rack mount connector for the cable will be more than twice the cost of each dimmer. In fact, I have put the total cost of each dimmer (6 channels) @ $810.00 x 12 = $9,720.00 which is still pretty cheap. The $810 includes a 19 pin multicable connector for the dimmer @ $50, Electrician Time @ $75 per dimmer, Multi-Cable @ $250 and breakout (soca-6 plug stage pin) cables for each multi-cable @ $185.

Unless anyone else has a better Idea, I don't see how else to do it. Soca cable is pretty cheap compared to running 6 x 50' stage pin cables from the truss to the dimmers, so thats out of the question. The problem with truss-mounted dimmers is that the cheapest is more expensive than the LD6230, and does not offer the same power ability.

Overall, this seems like the most standard way of doing it, and probably the easiest and least expensive option, short of just using the lighting already at each Theater, which is going to be a head-ache in that we would have to arrive 2 days early, re-hang most lights as light plot will most likely not be rigged correct, have to focus, and do full tech rehearsals with each new setup.

That's not including the added expense of renting the theater for an additional 2 days and paying $20 per hour for each technician over a two day period.

with out own lighting setup, we can arrive day of show, hang everything and just plug it all in, do a quick light check to make sure every instruments is working as its suppose to, and go on with the show. The cost of buying the equipment is small compared to paying an additional $3,000 per day to rent the theater plus $300 a day for tech's.

Am I approaching this wrong? Does anyone see a reason why this setup would not work?

Thanks,
James!

 

[len]

Am I approaching this wrong? Does anyone see a reason why this setup would not work?

Thanks,
James!

I agree that it's better to come in with your own rig. But I would really look into the cost of renting a dimmer rack based on your plot rather than buying for a bunch of one offs. Once you know how many circuits you'll need, make a few calls. Especially if you're going out in the next few weeks. Things are slow and most production houses are cutting fees a little to get equipment moving.

 

[jamesmiller]

While I have nothing against renting... It will cost many times more to rent the equipment than the buy it.

As an example, I talked the CEO into purchasing the Sennie EW 100 G2 setup for 16 channels. We purchased the entire system for $11,800. Had we have rented it, each 4 channel setup was $300 a week, so to get the required 16 channels, thats 4 x $300, or $1,200 per week. Considering a discount for multiple unit rental, maybe 20%, that's still $960 per week. We need the equipment for a straight 20 weeks, so thats 20 x $960... Or $19,200.00. I talked to three different rental houses, and only one had enough of the systems to make a 16 channel system.

We saved $7,400.00 by buying, and we can turn around and use it not only on this tour, but the next... and the next... expanding only where needed.

Thats why I really have never considered rental a viable option. Of course, if your making $30,000 a show, paying a one time extra of $7,000 isn't nothing.

As to the Dimmers, I did a little investigating around, and found that there really are not many places that rent the cheapish, so I had to settle with a touring dimmer pack from the likes of ETC. List rental price was around $525 per day for a 94 x 2.4Kw system. If you figure a 3 day week on the rental price, thats $1,575 per week x 20 weeks = $31,500.00!

WOW. That's not even including cables, instruments, truss, etc. We can buy a comparable 1.2Kw dimmer setup, with the same number of channels for $4,400 with the Eurolight dimmers. Sure, its not the best, most high cost equipment... But it gets the job done just fine, and is still from a reputable company.

As I said, Rental really is not a viable option in my opinion. Now, if you only need the equipment one time... Just for one tour, and you dont plan to need it again, than fine. It it cheaper to rent. But in the long run, buying the equipment saves thousands of dollars.

James

 

[len]

Maybe I should open a rental house in your area, then. ETC Sensor 96 goes for $300 - $400 for A WEEK around here. And for multiple week tours it's even less.

 

[Esoteric]

Yeah, I can get a 96 rack here for $550 per week and if the rental is long enough they will usually throw in cables and such for half the normal rental price.

Why not buy a touring rack? You can get good used touring racks for $22000 or so. It beats the heck out of hauling around 48 of those little crappy DJ packs (which will last you about a year on the road with normal useage).

Mike

 

[icewolf08]

Maybe I should open a rental house in your area, then. ETC Sensor 96 goes for $300 - $400 for A WEEK around here. And for multiple week tours it's even less.

I'm in with Len. The rental houses you have talked to are ripping you off. However, there is a caveat to that, you need to go to the rental house asking about the complete package, not just parts as usually the deals come when you talk package. You might try talking to a company like PRG as they really are the biggest rental house in the country and can probably put together whatever you need.

Also, consider the fact that if you buy all this gear you will need a place to store it when it is not in use. I don't know what kind of facilities you have, but chances are you and the gear won't be happy if it ends up in someone's basement as opposed to proper storage.

 

[Footer]

And you are going to need a good number of replacement power cubes. I can't see those behringer dimmers lasting long on the road.... Never used their lighting gear, but I have spent plenty of time with their audio gear. If you are still looking at buying, I would seriously look at at least an NSI package. Best would be smartpacks from ETC. If you could pick up some used CD80 packs that would also be a good way to go. If you do decide to go with the behringer dimmers, make sure you rack and wire them in a way that you can still pull them or at least be able to replace cards in them.

 

[TimMiller]

i'd look around for a used dimmer rack. I have found some nice deals looking around. You can probably find something with soco connections all ready wired on. Which i had another idea, most road houses have soco, i'd call and check in with them, and just tell them to do dimmer drops where you want things to go. Its hard to screw up just dropping down a soco cable and plugging it into a dimmer. If they have electrics thats great, just use some extensions to plug your lights into the raceway. Just change your fixture patch for the house, save it on a different disk (you never know when you are going to be back with the same show ). It beats carrying around a dimmer rack, also for your dimmer rack did you factor in distribution for the rack. How are you going to connect the rack to the house power. Most theaters do not have 32 outlets for you to plug into. They do have cam though. So you need to get your electrician to put cam connections on the back, then wire it up to a distro (unless the dimmers have mains protection which i doubt) with double pole breakers rated for 60-80A whatever manufacturer specs are. Check out DimmerRack, Unique items for the Audio and Lighting Professional for cheap distro solutions, and check out CBI for any cabling they will have what you need and at a much better price. Also do not forget any fan-ins or fan-outs you may need. Its hard to plug a par can directly into a soco connection.