Looking for guidance for quoting a small, local, music festival

[iammagicmike]

I hope that I'm posting this in the correct spot, if not please let me know and I can try a different thread.

My friend and I are fairly new to lighting, but have learned a lot between both of us we have enough (indoor) gear to light 2 to 3 small stages for DJs/Bands/etc. The experiences we've gained have given us some decent confidence and we understand that we are fully capable of providing a quality lighting show for an event like this.

This past August (2014) we volunteered our gear and time to set up lights at a small, local outdoor festival for 2 nights (on 1 stage only, sound active lights). We did it for free becuase we had some personal connections with the event coordinator and we wanted to dive into the scene and show them that we can provide the service that they need. Our efforts were very well received and the coordinator has already started planning for next August's (2015) event.

We were asked to provide an estimate to include our labor and equipment rental fees for the weekend on 2 to 3 stages. Please note that NONE of our gear is meant for outdoor use (in fact one of our moving lights broke from some of the dust last year).

We certainly would have to plan to rent some gear to supplement our own personal gear, but I was planning on quoting 3% of the replacement value of each light for the daily rental fee for any of our equipment that we would plan to rent.

So here's where I need some guidance. We want to have DMX control on one stage and sound/auto mode the other 2 stages. This would be at minimum 2 x 12 hour days (fri and sat) plus a 6 hour day sunday just for running the lights. I would estimate set up at 2 more full 12 hour days.

So just ball parking the sum estimate for labor hours between the two of us, we're looking at over 100 hours labor for the weekend.

Does $15/hour seem like a reasonable labor rate? Does the 3% daily rental fee seem high or low? I'd appreciate any input.

Thanks
Mike

 

[TuckerD]

How big is your inventory $10,000? $50,000?

Let's pretend that it's the lower of the two.

$15 * 100 + .03 * $10,000 = $1,800.

Even if your inventory is $50,000 that's still only 3 grand.

Sounds too low. You should charge more for labor. And your equipment.

I'm no expert on this but that's what I think.

 

[len]

The "wrong" way is the way that doesn't get you the job at a price that makes you money.

For multi-day events, we charge 1) equipment rental price for the first day; 2) rental price for subsequent days; 3) delivery, set-up, and take down; and 4) technician and/or operators; 5) cabling; 6) trussing, stands, etc. 3% of equipment cost isn't unreasonable, but I would start higher and negotiate down. I would also include a requirement that all stages include security for when the event is not in session, like overnight. Factor in some replacement labor so you can have a break. You can't expect to be working all the hours the event is running.

Semi-related, I have relatives in that area. If you need an extra hand and/or more equipment, let me know.

 

[DuckJordan]

How are you able to charge that much for gear. Most of the time around here we get maybe 2% of gear cost and we aren't that saturated of a market. Also why does it take 12 hours to setup your lights? Thats ridiculous. Honestly your labor cost alone is going to bankrupt you guys. Unless you charge a flat fee (well below minimum wage) you likely wont get a single contract with that setup and tear down time.

Up here labor alone would cost you $15 dollars and thats for a basic hand. so asuming 48 hours + 6 for a show day thats 54 hours thats $1000/hand for the gig (asuming overtime using basic federal guidlines [not IA contracts which anything after 8 hours is overtime]) so saying 2 guys to run the gig thats $2000 grand just in labor for what I can gather with sound activated lights being gear that costs maybe $300 a fixture (may cost more may cost less just what I've seen on average) this is quickly becoming a 10 grand event. At that price why wouldn't they go with a more established company with Pre-rig truss and a crew to setup in 6 hours?

Free's up the venue's time as well as your clients time. To me I just see no financial reason to go with your company over someone else... Now personal connections go very far in this industry but not 5 grand difference in labor cost.

 

[iammagicmike]

How are you able to charge that much for gear. Most of the time around here we get maybe 2% of gear cost and we aren't that saturated of a market. Also why does it take 12 hours to setup your lights? Thats ridiculous. Honestly your labor cost alone is going to bankrupt you guys. Unless you charge a flat fee (well below minimum wage) you likely wont get a single contract with that setup and tear down time.

Up here labor alone would cost you $15 dollars and thats for a basic hand. so asuming 48 hours + 6 for a show day thats 54 hours thats $1000/hand for the gig (asuming overtime using basic federal guidlines [not IA contracts which anything after 8 hours is overtime]) so saying 2 guys to run the gig thats $2000 grand just in labor for what I can gather with sound activated lights being gear that costs maybe $300 a fixture (may cost more may cost less just what I've seen on average) this is quickly becoming a 10 grand event. At that price why wouldn't they go with a more established company with Pre-rig truss and a crew to setup in 6 hours?

Free's up the venue's time as well as your clients time. To me I just see no financial reason to go with your company over someone else... Now personal connections go very far in this industry but not 5 grand difference in labor cost.

Thanks for the input.

How are you able to charge that much for gear.

Believe it or not, I haven't actually been hired for too many jobs, I started about 8 months ago and my friend started 2 years ago. We've been hired for a few small jobs, but we my friend and I are still getting into the scene. The experiences we've gained have given us some decent confidence and we understand that we are fully capable of providing a quality lighting show for an event like this. So to answer your question, I haven't really started charging for events, it's been more of a personal favor to that I'd do it for next to no costs in exchange for the experience I gain from the show. Hence why I asked for some guidance here on pricing. I have no interest in doing this for free for much longer.

Also why does it take 12 hours to setup your lights? Thats ridiculous.

We're talking about a festival that is outdoors with 2 or 3 stages. We set up one stage last year and it took us nearly 6 hours. Understand that the stages are built by people that aren't professional carpenters but rather more enthusiastic volunteers that wish to contribute to the festival. So when we arrived last year it was a bit of a challenge to set up. I don't think it's ridiculous to ball park 12 hours to set up lights for 2 or 3 stages. "Set up lights" is a blanket term setting up the lights, travel, testing, etc. It's a bit challenging to describe the scene we're working with, but additionally please keep in mind that we are still getting our feet wet. So something that may take you 10 minutes to set up may take me 25 minutes. I don't know anything about you or your business but I was just spitballing numbers to help users on this forum contribute. 12 hours labor isn't necessarily what it would take, I simply had to assign a value in order to post the question.

At that price why wouldn't they go with a more established company with Pre-rig truss and a crew to setup in 6 hours?

I have no problem directing the event coordinator to a more established company. In fact, I planned to do so as a negotiation (in order to justify the quote I provide). If they can provide lighting for multiple stages for $2000 or less than that company absolutely deserves to get the job. I won't sell myself short for that little money, my time is more valuable than that.

Most of the time around here we get maybe 2% of gear cost and we aren't that saturated of a market.

If you were running this show, an outdoor local EDM music festival, and you had to provide lighting for 2 stages. With equipment valuing at about $20,000 + the labor that I listed, what would you quote?

 

[iammagicmike]

How big is your inventory $10,000? $50,000?

Let's pretend that it's the lower of the two.

$15 * 100 + .03 * $10,000 = $1,800.

Even if your inventory is $50,000 that's still only 3 grand.

Sounds too low. You should charge more for labor. And your equipment.

I'm no expert on this but that's what I think.

I planned to quote at 3% for the daily rental fee or 10% for the weekly rental fee. So that's for the 3 days of show plus another day to setup = puts us at the 10% weekly rental fee. We're working with about $20,000 worth of equipment that we would include in the quote. So here we'd be looking at:

$15/hr * 100 hrs + 0.10 * $20,000 = $3,500 for the event.

I understand that this may be our ASKING price but the negotiated price may be lower. We'll be able to wiggle a little bit on the cost, but I'm fairly certain that a more experienced company would probably charge double or more.

 

[iammagicmike]

The "wrong" way is the way that doesn't get you the job at a price that makes you money.

For multi-day events, we charge 1) equipment rental price for the first day; 2) rental price for subsequent days; 3) delivery, set-up, and take down; and 4) technician and/or operators; 5) cabling; 6) trussing, stands, etc. 3% of equipment cost isn't unreasonable, but I would start higher and negotiate down. I would also include a requirement that all stages include security for when the event is not in session, like overnight. Factor in some replacement labor so you can have a break. You can't expect to be working all the hours the event is running.

Semi-related, I have relatives in that area. If you need an extra hand and/or more equipment, let me know.

thanks for the point-by-point of what you would charge, that's actually very helpful and I plan to use something similar to that in order to populate my estimate.

I'll take any opportunity to expand my network. Tell your relatives that this festival is about 45 miles north of Detroit. They've only had a single meeting to start planning for the event in August, so I'm afraid there aren't any details available just yet.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

I think you are on the right track, pricing wise. I commonly see 5% as the "default" week rate. I would do days rate for you and your partner and then hourly for helpers. If I were you I would load in Sat, program that night for the Sunday show.

For the love of God, ditch the sound activated feature for a guy on a console.

 

[iammagicmike]

I think you are on the right track, pricing wise. I commonly see 5% as the "default" week rate. I would do days rate for you and your partner and then hourly for helpers. If I were you I would load in Sat, program that night for the Sunday show.

For the love of God, ditch the sound activated feature for a guy on a console.

For the love of God, ditch the sound activated feature for a guy on a console.

Yes, we're growing and learning, so console control is a high priotity but at the moment we only have one console between the both of us. The direction I received was to populate an estimate ASAP with what we could provide if the event was next week (if for no other reason than to give the event planner a rough cost that he can use for his planning). I'm certain that what I quote now in November 2014 will be much different to what is provided come August 2015.

My concerns currently are focused on asking for a fair price that doesn't undersell ourselves. I completely agree that console control is superior and I'm not fighting that at all. I simply had to put together a quick plan for estimating and it'll change from there as we approach the event.

I commonly see 5% as the "default" week rate.

I appreciate the input. This is the type of information I was hoping to pull out of my post.

If I were you I would load in Sat, program that night for the Sunday show.

Can you expand on this a little? The way I'm reading it is a bit confusing?

 

[Pie4Weebl]

Your load in should be only a day long, I think I mis-read your original post though, and thought the event was only on Sunday, while you probably meant it goes into sunday/strike.

Also add 25% to your budget, because it is a year away.

 

[len]

thanks for the point-by-point of what you would charge, that's actually very helpful and I plan to use something similar to that in order to populate my estimate.

I'll take any opportunity to expand my network. Tell your relatives that this festival is about 45 miles north of Detroit. They've only had a single meeting to start planning for the event in August, so I'm afraid there aren't any details available just yet.

They're in Clarkston, so northwest of St. Clair Shores. Like I said, if you need a hand and/or gear, I can always use an excuse to visit. I use a spreadsheet to write quotes, so each item is description, quantity, unit price, total price. Makes it easy to adjust quantities.

 

[DuckJordan]

I didn't mean to come off rude, Sorry if I had.

I'm not saying to sell yourself short but finding ways to decrease the time it takes to load in/out should be high priority. This is where it will make or break you in the business. I'd go into liability concerns but that's a different thread.

I agree with Pie for you and your co-owner, a flat day rate would be the best situation. For 20k worth of gear we'd charge roughly 2 grand for setup and labor would be 5 hands + our 2 flat rates at 250 a piece per day. The hands would be needed for 2 days, the in and the out.

so
5*15 = 75/hr
roughly 6 hours of setup 6*75 = 450
4 days of work at day rate comes out to be 2k
so we would be at 4.5k for a base rate. (that's minimal gear).

Thing to note, some clients we've negotiated to pay labor costs separate from the quoted rate. This can either help the client or hurt the client. So we'd start the gear quote at 2k and say we will settle up labor at the end of the event.

This allows a more exact labor cost which in a lot of cases can save the client money. Instead of paying for labor for all 6 hours (maybe they were great hands and only took 4 hours to get in) that save $150 off of labor.
Other times it could take 8 hours for an in that should take 6 due to venue constraints and issues. This is where they fork over extra money so your company doesn't have to eat the extra labor cost.

 

[James Feenstra]

remember to add company profit into your labor calculations.

if you're paying your guys $15/hr and charging $15/hr for labor, you make $0 for the time it takes to book those guys and organize the show.

while I don't know what your market is like, $15/hr for any kind of stagehand labor here is incredibly low.

 

[len]

As for your labor costs, I use an outside labor agency. Their rate is based on 4 hour calls for the in and out. If the in takes 5 minutes, they're still getting paid for the 4 hours. Of course, if it goes longer, they also get meal breaks, overtime, etc. And yes, you should add profit above your labor cost. Calculating labor in advance is the hardest part of a proposal because most clients won't tolerate overages. They assume you're trying to screw them.