MA1 Light or MA2 on PC?

Amishplumber

Active Member
Hello folks,

Hoping to poll the personal preferences of LDs, programmers and the like who have MA experience. Given the option, would you rather use an MA1 Light or an MA2 on PC rig for a gig?

The MA1 Light package includes just the console + a keyboard.

The MA2 on PC rig includes a computer, >20" touchscreen, keyboard, mouse and command wing (NO fader wing).

Which do you guys think is a more useful console?

Just been thinking about this recently since I often use them both on gigs and recently looked up prices. A command wing can be had on the street for about $6k, while a used MA1 Light can be had for about $7k. Once you factor in the cost of a computer to go with the MA2 wing, they're comparatively priced.

Thoughts internet?
 
I know many people who say MA2 is the only way to go at this point, but I'm about 50/50 on that. I just purchased an MA1 UltraLight off of eBay for significantly less than the going value and it's great. Haven't gigged it yet, but expect to many times in the coming year. I personally prefer a hardware console to a PC solution, which was one of the main reasons for going with the MA1 UltraLight. Getting any sort of MA2 console is beyond prohibitively expensive for me.

However, MA2 has more features and it's the new standard, and there's something to be said for that. You can hook up basically whatever MIDI hardware you want as far as button pads & external fader wings, so there's always that - you could get a 64 pad MIDI controller and have 64 exec buttons. You could also do onscreen controls.

I still do think there's something to be said though for not having to plug in PC/peripherials - just plug in power & DMX and you're golden. That and MA1 is still my go to weapon of choice for programming - haven't fully made the leap to MA2 yet.
 
I will go with what a mentor of mine told me a long time a go, a PC is not a lighting console. If you can go with a device that was made to tour, get beat up, withstand crappy power, has a built in UPS and has a strong outer chassis and can stand up to atmospheric conditions, do it. A PC control option in my opinion is something I would use where its more of an install environment and will not ever move. For example an architectural install for an art museum, mood lighting in a restaurant or atmospheric lighting for a theme park install. Lighting desks are made to be in situations where the hardware will hold to all the conditions an entertainment environment will throw at it so it won't fail. A PC is not.

does that mean the console will never fail, no but your chances of it doing so are much less than a PC.
 
I will go with what a mentor of mine told me a long time a go, a PC is not a lighting console. If you can go with a device that was made to tour, get beat up, withstand crappy power, has a built in UPS and has a strong outer chassis and can stand up to atmospheric conditions, do it. A PC control option in my opinion is something I would use where its more of an install environment and will not ever move. For example an architectural install for an art museum, mood lighting in a restaurant or atmospheric lighting for a theme park install. Lighting desks are made to be in situations where the hardware will hold to all the conditions an entertainment environment will throw at it so it won't fail. A PC is not.

does that mean the console will never fail, no but your chances of it doing so are much less than a PC.

Except a laptop + Command and fader wings is a pretty nice touring setup... And it's not a large 90lb console.
 
I've heard that from multiple people now, but I'm not sure I follow the logic. It's only less weight... An ma2 on pc rig takes up just as much truck space as an ma1 light and needs way MORE table space at FOH.


So assuming you are touring, are you bringing your own table or is the venue supplying? If the venue is providing that gives you two options a 6' or an 8' most venues only have those two options. I have a feeling you'll have enough space at foh if you are touring in any form with a grandMA

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So assuming you are touring, are you bringing your own table or is the venue supplying? If the venue is providing that gives you two options a 6' or an 8' most venues only have those two options. I have a feeling you'll have enough space at foh if you are touring in any form with a grandMA

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Yeah, unless you are touring venues <3,000 cap. "sorry the house Heritage 3K doesn't move" - Every HOB house guy ever

I thought about buying an MA wing, saw prices around $7,000, added in a PC and decided an Avo Quartz was a better use of my money.

If you are stuck on having something from MA, the MA2 wing will last you longer, and you can eventually add the extra wing to it.
 
Yeah, unless you are touring venues <3,000 cap. "sorry the house Heritage 3K doesn't move" - Every HOB house guy ever

I thought about buying an MA wing, saw prices around $7,000, added in a PC and decided an Avo Quartz was a better use of my money.

If you are stuck on having something from MA, the MA2 wing will last you longer, and you can eventually add the extra wing to it.

Yeah, but who wants to move a Heritage 3k unless they absolutely have to.
 
Okay cool,

I think we've got the practicalities of the physical boxes figured out. But as a programmer or LD, which do you prefer to use as an artistic tool? Personally, I find the differences between MA1 and MA2 software to be minimal and would rather take the combo of older software+better hardware over new software+wings.

But maybe thats just because I'm running smaller size rigs (average rig includes: 6-12 MLs, 12-48 LEDs, 6-12 dimmers)?

Any opinions guys? What do you find more more pleasant to work with? Hot software on a PC & wings, or older software on physical hardware

Both specifically with MA, but also in more general terms. I think there are comparisons to be made with other brands' gear as well. For instance Road Hog 3 vs. Nanohog 4.

P.S. Victor: Apparently, I'm waaay behind on Avo! Last time I went to their website the Pearl 2010 was still the hot item... What do you think about the Titan software?
 
I agree with you, at a smaller scale, the differences between the MA1 and MA2 are mostly cosmetic, and I'd MUCH prefer having a rock-solid hardware solution over newer software for an onPC. There are a number of awesome tools and features that were introduced on the 2 Series that I really miss when I have to go back to the MA1, but I'd much prefer having a physical console instead of an onPC solution. Virtually all of the shows I do these days use a 2 Series, but there have been a few instances where I've been surprised to find a MA1 onsite, and it's never been a problem. Admittedly, I first learned MA before the 2 Series was released, so I've at least spent some time on it, but someone who's only ever known the 2 might struggle a bit more. Also, I've always been a bit skeptical about onPC solutions for live shows and/or situations where the lighting was critical. I see them a lot for architectural installations and other such events that get programmed once and never change, but I still like the security of having a purpose-built console in front of me.
 
But Michael, can you consider most MA1s rock solid anymore? Yes some shops take good care of them, but I feel like a lot of the one series desks I see in the wild, are "well used" and nearing the end of their lifespan. I feel like while right now, usage might be pretty comparable on both desks, you need to look buy something that you will still want to use in 5 years, and the MA1s are starting to age.

I've done about a half dozen tours on the onPC and the only issue I've had on tour is when I forgot to pack the USB cable. While I will always want a series 2 light over anything series one, or a wing, I still think I would go wing over an older desk. Punting can be a little cumbersome on the small form factor, but it's not unworkable.

Re: my Quartz, I'm taking the time to learn the software and so far I have been impressed. There are a few MA specific things I miss, but there are AVO features I am quite fond of. I'm excited to take it out on its first tour next month.
 
But Michael, can you consider most MA1s rock solid anymore? Yes some shops take good care of them, but I feel like a lot of the one series desks I see in the wild, are "well used" and nearing the end of their lifespan. I feel like while right now, usage might be pretty comparable on both desks, you need to look buy something that you will still want to use in 5 years, and the MA1s are starting to age.

My mistake. I assumed this was more of a rental/one-off situation, not a long-term purchase. In that case, I'd agree with you. I wouldn't want to rely on a MA1 long-term, especially with no prospect of a backup console. It's a different story when you're taking it from a shop that's just across the river that (theoretically) turned it on to make sure it looked good before sending it out.
 
As far as I"m concerned, the "A computer is not a lighting desk" argument is totally flawed, if only because, upon opening any current major lighting desk, you will find a computer.

They don't use some magic solid state electronics that do what computers do, without the computer. They are just computers, assembled and programmed by the console manufacturer. Nothing you can't do yourself if you wanted to.

From PRG's website, regarding the V476 Lighting Console:
Using an integrated Apple® Mac Mini as the processor unit means V476® takes advantage of superb graphics, faster processing, and can be efficiently updated.

Don't know what the US take-up on the PRG 476 / 676 boards has been like but I have heard very good things, and all of them run off standard Apple computers.
 
A console is a computer, a PC is a computer, my phone is a computer. Wait 10 years and we'll all have computers in our heads.

I'm with folks that there is nothing magical about the functionality and stability of a lighting console vs. wings and a PC. They'll both run your show day in and and day out while crashing on the same amount of rare, but awful, occasions. What about usability though? I find wings to be:

- Annoying to transport. (4ish smaller cases vs. 1 medium sized case)
- Annoying to setup. (Same reason as above + you often need more FOH space for a PC+wings setup).
- Slower to program. (Due to lack of certain physical hardware features).

Basically, the crux of what I'm trying to get at here is how much do you value the added usability of a real console vs. wings? Wings+PC are becoming super popular and common. I think a few years ago a lot of folks would scoff at a PC+wings setup as unprofessional, but now they're pretty much accepted.

Is the cheaper price worth losing key hardware features?
Do you miss the hardware so much you'd actually downgrade to an older software to get them back?
Maybe wings+software is the future and I'd better get my ass on board?

Not looking for advice on a specific purchase decision, just trying to get some discussion going and see where the general consensus of folks is.

My personal opinion on the matter is that I REALLY love having motorized faders and the MA1 Light is the only road-proven, easily sourced and reasonably priced console with those. Downside is its as old as your GrandMA.
 
... all of them run off standard Apple computers.
Yes, but Apple computers are better than average computer build quality (I still use a 2004 Powerbook - it's been my main personal computer since I bought it new, I've had 1 service call on it while still under AppleCare, the battery go replaced in a recall in 2006, and I've added memory - it still runs great [except that nobody makes commercial software for it and the batter is beyond useful life]). I know of no other computer brands where notebooks live for more than 10 years - they fall appart first. Too bad SJ had to kill the user replaceable battery as that's my biggest reason not to choose Apple hardware now.

Of course desktops from all makes usually last until someone decides they are obsolete (or the cheap OEM power supply fries the MB).
 
Yes, but Apple computers are better than average computer build quality (I still use a 2004 Powerbook - it's been my main personal computer since I bought it new, I've had 1 service call on it while still under AppleCare, the battery go replaced in a recall in 2006, and I've added memory - it still runs great [except that nobody makes commercial software for it and the batter is beyond useful life]). I know of no other computer brands where notebooks live for more than 10 years - they fall appart first. Too bad SJ had to kill the user replaceable battery as that's my biggest reason not to choose Apple hardware now.

Of course desktops from all makes usually last until someone decides they are obsolete (or the cheap OEM power supply fries the MB).

Completely agree. Last year I bought an Asus all-singing-all-dancing-latest-spec laptop with a gazillion gigs of RAM and whatever... and I hate it. For 2 reasons... a) the hardware build quality IS undeniably awful; but also B) Windows is catastrophic. Every time I use it I want to smack Bill Gates around the head with the computer. It's very capable technically, but just god awful functionally. I do still use it as a programming terminal in my MA2 setup, and for playing certain PC-only games; but my day to day computer is a Mid-2010 MacBook Pro. My 2008 side-loading type MBP still works, but this thing is better if you ask me. The battery is and isn't user changeable. As in - it's not officially... but if you buy the part from Amazon, and follow the tutorial on Youtube, it's a pretty straightforward swap, and it's well out of warranty anyway.

On the subject of desks, some desks will run on Mac anyway - IE the PRG one but also Chamsys is directly Mac compatible for sure. But in any case, BootCamp or Fusion/Parallels will let you run PC software on a Mac... MA Lighting actually recommend a Macbook Pro running Bootcamp as the best spec portable computer for use with MA2 OnPC.

I personally don't think arguments for desks being inherently better than PCs + Wings has any material strength. It's an outdated belief... although if you are not computer savvy, you may well find that a desk is an easier out-the-box solution than having to set up a PC for optimum use with your wing hardware and desk software. But the basic characteristics of having the computer separated from the faders by a USB cable, rather than being bolted inside the same box, has no effect on the running of the show.
 
These days there is very little difference between a Mac and a PC. They use the same CPU, graphics cards, memory and drives. They have the same IO ports and they run the same programs. They are all made in Chinese factories, except Apple has higher quality control and an Apple will usually be better built. You can buy truly horrible shonky PCs but all Macs are pretty solid. I use an Acer laptop for the purpose of running MagicQ and Titan and its every bit as solid and reliable as the Macbook that preceded it.
WRT functionality, Windows 7 is if anything, a better environment that any Mac OS - it is certainly more versatile and does not treat you like a child. Windows 8 is frustrating until you tame it I agree. But the point is you should not have to interact with it at all. Boot up, click an icon to start Titan/MA/MagicQ or whatever, and that's it.
If you want to run lighting from a wing and a computer then that computer should be only ever used for that purpose. As soon as you start using it for a general purpose instrument then you are asking for trouble.
I know people that run MA onPC on both platforms and nobody has ever said to me that a MAC is better for the purpose, because its actually not. In fact how can a machine running an OS on top of another OS possibly be better? As long as your PC has dedicated and not shared graphics then its fine.
So back to the OP - if, and only if you have a good and dedicated computer should you consider that option. If so and you prefer MA2 software then use it. I have spent the last three years touring Titan and PC and never had a problem.
 
Hello folks,

Hoping to poll the personal preferences of LDs, programmers and the like who have MA experience. Given the option, would you rather use an MA1 Light or an MA2 on PC rig for a gig?

The MA1 Light package includes just the console + a keyboard.

The MA2 on PC rig includes a computer, >20" touchscreen, keyboard, mouse and command wing (NO fader wing).

Which do you guys think is a more useful console?

Just been thinking about this recently since I often use them both on gigs and recently looked up prices. A command wing can be had on the street for about $6k, while a used MA1 Light can be had for about $7k. Once you factor in the cost of a computer to go with the MA2 wing, they're comparatively priced.

Thoughts internet?

I would do the MA1 Light. In a second.
 
I personally run a 6 computer onpc rig. Dell Optiplex 960's with SSD with the chassis mounted on shock absorbing mounts in their rack cases. Never have had an issue yet
 

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