Vintage Lighting Quartz Klieglights!

[Scenemaster60]

I have in my files a rather complete set of the Kliegl interim data sheets from their introduction of their new "all-quartz" line of fixtures introduced between about 1966 and the early 1970s. Those who were "in the field" at that time will certainly remember this roll-out of instruments. They became somewhat ubiquitous given the massive amount of new building and renovation of collegiate, community and professional theatre spaces that occurred in the US between 1965 and 1975 and the fact that Kliegl was such a major player in the US market at that time. They also had the resources and depth of product line to spec. an entire package deal that included dimmers, a patch panel, fixtures and plugging strips, etc. Other companies such as Rank-Strand, Major & Electro-Controls did this as well, but few seemed to have the market share that Kliegl had in the professional and collegiate market.

Remember, too, that the axial Altman 360Q didn't make its appearance until 1974. That made the Kliegl 1355/W (27 degree) and 1355 (19 degree) arguably the most efficient and versatile ellipsoidal on the market for about an 8 year period. Also, the Kliegl 6" fresnel (the 3508) like the 1355 ellipsoidals, shared the same lamp series: the EHB/C, EHD, EHF, EHG series of quartz lamps with with the G9.5 skirted bi-pin base.

I don't know for certain what year this series was superseded by the 1550 1K axials, but I have a data sheet for those that is dated 1980.

 

[JohnD]

One interesting tidbit, I had wrongly assumed that asbestos wiring was always loose, separate conductors, I didn't know that asbestos wiring could be sleeved.

 

[Scenemaster60]

John, there's an interesting discrepancy between some of the drawings and the text of the specs. Some of the drawings do indeed indicate asbestos covered wire. Most of the text specifications (except the larger fresnels) indicate that the leads are either teflon encased in a silicone sleeve or silicone rubber encased in a fabric sleeve.
Just from my personal experience in working with older inventory I have run into at least 3 different variants of the 1355. I have also never run across a quartz Klieglight from these series with asbestos leads. Whether they have been changed out over the years or if they were never shipped with asbestos I can't say for certain.

 

[derekleffew]

That made the Kliegl 1355/W (27 degree) and 1355 (19 degree) arguably the most efficient and versatile ellipsoidal on the market for about an 8 year period.

Okay, challenged accepted! Having worked in many venues where this was the predominant ERS, I'll argue the point: They sucked. Period. Between the step lens and the unnecessarily large radial hole in the reflector, they couldn't hold a candle to the Century (Strand) die-cast aluminum radial ERSs with either the 750T12/9 or the EGG lamp. Bonuses? They were larger, heavier, used non-standard colorframe sizes, and the lamp-cap sleeving led to significantly more itching than other brands.

 

[Scenemaster60]

I'll give you all of the points but one, Derek, I really think that the Kliegl 1355 weighed less than the Century 2321. Kliegl lists the weight as 14 lbs. I have used both of these lights in the past and have always been surprised by how "not heavy" the 1355 is for its size. Next time I have access to one of my 2321s, I'll through it on a bathroom scale and see what I come up with. There's certainly a lot more glass in a Century 2321!

 

[DavidNorth]

Okay, challenged accepted! Having worked in many venues where this was the predominant ERS, I'll argue the point: They sucked. Period. Between the step lens and the unnecessarily large radial hole in the reflector, they couldn't hold a candle to the Century (Strand) die-cast aluminum radial ERSs with either the 750T12/9 or the EGG lamp. Bonuses? They were larger, heavier, used non-standard colorframe sizes, and the lamp-cap sleeving led to significantly more itching than other brands.

Goodness. I agree. We called them "black hole projectors" because you couldn't get any light out of the middle of the beam of a DWT lamped unit no matter what you tried [Am I confused with the 1357??]. The only solution was to double them up, slightly overlap the centers and run the barrel to get it a little fuzzy. Oh, and getting fuzzy was easy since they never focused sharp. Patterns were a nightmare.

But yes, they were everywhere. Every school and college we toured into also had those things. Funny to talk about how the 360Q saved us. Oh, and I get to say this as I was a big Kliegl fan.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Okay, challenged accepted! Having worked in many venues where this was the predominant ERS, I'll argue the point: They sucked. Period. Between the step lens and the unnecessarily large radial hole in the reflector, they couldn't hold a candle to the Century (Strand) die-cast aluminum radial ERSs with either the 750T12/9 or the EGG lamp. Bonuses? They were larger, heavier, used non-standard colorframe sizes, and the lamp-cap sleeving led to significantly more itching than other brands.

So, better or worse than the Kliegls that used double ended tungsten halogen lamps?

 

[derekleffew]

@Scenemaster60, you're likely correct and I am mis-remembering. Change "heavy" to "bulky."

So, better or worse than the Kliegls that used double ended tungsten halogen lamps?

The 1357 had all of the problems of the 1355 plus an additional, albeit smaller, hole in the reflector. IIRC, bench focus was near impossible on the 1357.

Oh, and I have seen a 1355 with asbestos leads. IIRC, black, white, and green like Electro-Controls used to use. Was the sole unit of its type in a more modern theatre, so I can't vouch for its provenance.

 

[SteveB]

Another interesting tidbit was the State University of NY College at Purchase system as installed in the mid to late 70's. The lighting consultant was Martin Aronstein, who specified Kliegl. Due to the vagaries of the bidding, Ward Leonard won the bid to equip the first of the 4 theaters (known as A - B - C & D). D was the first to open and was the 70x80x35 black box. To get the award, WL had Altman manufacture the 360Q with sheet metal, not the typical cast aluminum. Thus this theater had a complete inventory of what I was later told was the only such beasts on the planet. They were completely identical to an aluminum 360Q right down to the dual PC lenses, not getting the step lenses that were typical of Kliegls. Theaters A, B & C all had Kleigl gear - lighting fixtures, control (Performance), patch panel, dimmers, etc.... as Ward Leonard had by that point defaulted on making good their bid for the rest of the facility and had gone Chapter 11 or so.

 

[venuetech]

I hate with a vengeance Kliegl C-clamps of that era. If i have to work with one... well it simply makes a quick exit, never to be scene again.
each of the Kliegl series had their own 6" color frame size. Have a 6" 3508 color frame, you cannot put it into any other 6" fixture.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

I hate with a vengeance Kliegl C-clamps of that era. If i have to work with one... well it simply makes a quick exit, never to be scene again.
each of the Kliegl series had their own 6" color frame size. Have a 6" 3508 color frame, you cannot put it into any other 6" fixture.

Are those the clamps with the spacer ring held on with a #10 machine screw? Those are awful.

 

[Scenemaster60]

You mean one of these?
Yeah, they suck.
Most of them also had the machine screw either missing or broken off by the time I got to them in the 1980s.

 

[venuetech]

That's it. See how the yokes have a scrap from the pipe bolt, imagine a finger in that spot as you swing the unit to focus. The pan bolt is missing be cause the only thing it accomplished was to strip the threads off the yoke bolt.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

I should have saved one for posterity when I cleaned out the light shop in college, but the spacer washer was missing, like it always is.

 

[jstandfast]

Okay, challenged accepted! Having worked in many venues where this was the predominant ERS, I'll argue the point: They sucked. Period. Between the step lens and the unnecessarily large radial hole in the reflector, they couldn't hold a candle to the Century (Strand) die-cast aluminum radial ERSs with either the 750T12/9 or the EGG lamp. Bonuses? They were larger, heavier, used non-standard colorframe sizes, and the lamp-cap sleeving led to significantly more itching than other brands.

.......Concur.

 

[Scenemaster60]

Well, the replies above confirm my frustrations a few years ago in working with a "legacy" Kliegl inventory of about 20 1355s. I expected them to act like the Altman 360Qs 6x16s of my youth (the 1980s). They didn't.
So…..
The Kliegl 1355 might have been equal to the Altman 360 radial?
But it did not out-perform the fixtures imported from "across the pond"?

 

[JohnD]

Since we are talking about radial ERS, I wonder if there is any truth about what an older stagehand told me once. The reason for the use of burn base up lamps. One thought is because it is an enclosed fixture with shutters which can warp from excessive heat and lenses that can crack, the BBU lamp type was used to help keep the fixture cooler, but this guy told me the real reason was since it was a lensed fixture, you wanted the shadowy part of the beam on the feet, not the face, made sense to me.

 

[JChenault]

Since we are talking about radial ERS, I wonder if there is any truth about what an older stagehand told me once. The reason for the use of burn base up lamps. One thought is because it is an enclosed fixture with shutters which can warp from excessive heat and lenses that can crack, the BBU lamp type was used to help keep the fixture cooler, but this guy told me the real reason was since it was a lensed fixture, you wanted the shadowy part of the beam on the feet, not the face, made sense to me.

I don't buy it. Firstly I don't remember a big dark spot in the bottom of the field. Also, if you remember the lamp housing it is alligned so that the base is up when the fixture is pointed down at about 45 degrees. This means that the hole in the reflector is toward thr back. If it were a burn base down my guess is that the lamp housing would get too close to the shutter assembly.

 

[derekleffew]

I wonder if there is any truth about what an older stagehand told me once. The reason for the use of burn base up lamps.

Yeah, I don't buy that either.

From http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=353545 :

Most stage lighting bulbs are specifically designed for the bulbs to be mounted upside-down (metal base up), and will burn out much faster if they aren't kept this way.

The purpose is that heat rises, and the metal base of the bulb transfers the heat into the metal housing of the light fixture, thus keeping the bulb cooler. If it's run with the glass part of the bulb up, the heat concentrates in the glass, and can only radiate out into the air, and so it overheats and burns out faster.

Also consider filament geometry. There's a good amount of tungsten material in the filament for a given wattage, and optically it's best to contain it in as small an area as possible, thus the CC or coiled coil. If a lamp is burned upside down, supports intended to hang are worthless, parts of the filament sag, touch another, and boom, burnout.

To bring this back to relevancy, I note that a CCT series of ERSs in the 1980s offered both an axial or a BBD (burn base down) version using the FEL, for those concerned about socket life. I believe Kliegl imported these and called them the 1550 series, may have also been called Aimslite.

I'm pretty sure you're not talking about the 1550-series, which Kliegl imported from CCT/Aimslite (http://www.klieglbros.com/catalogs/SpecSheets/1550/1550p1c280.jpg), although some versions, at least of the CCT, did use, I think, an FEL mounted base down to supposedly keep the heat away from the socket.

 

[JChenault]

Since we are talking about radial ERS, I wonder if there is any truth about what an older stagehand told me once. The reason for the use of burn base up lamps. One thought is because it is an enclosed fixture with shutters which can warp from excessive heat and lenses that can crack, the BBU lamp type was used to help keep the fixture cooler, but this guy told me the real reason was since it was a lensed fixture, you wanted the shadowy part of the beam on the feet, not the face, made sense to me.

Another reason I don't buy it. Let's look at a BBU lamp

The fillament is about 4 inches from the base, and about 2 inches from the end of the lamp. How come?

The glass of the bulb in these fixtures is not the new tangled Quartz glass. It melts at a low temperature. If you burn the lamp in a horizontal position the bulb will heat, soften, and bulge out. Ultimately it will fail and the lamp is toast. ( the lamp could look quite phallic when this happened). The filament is positioned so far from the base so the heat would disperse before it melted the glass bulb.

Now consider what a BBD T12 lamp would look like. It would have an LCL as short as 2 or 3 inches, and the bulb would have to extend at least 4 inches beyond the filament. Unless you want to build a huge reflector, you would have to put a hole on the other side of the reflector for the bulb to extend through.

Additionally I suspect that a T12 BBD lamp is probably not practical as I have never seen a bulb smaller than a T20 in a BBD lamp.

In a BBU lamp you can make a more compact fixture, with fewer holes in the reflector, and it is convenient that you have a lot of space for the burner assembly far from the center of the reflector.