Career Advice Get @Dagger A Job

[Dagger]

I am 30 yr old male just started in this industry 4 months ago and I love this work .

I have been mainly a stagehand but my goal is to become a rigger

Should I take courses in my own ( rigstar, etc) or should I wait for the company to provide me training?


Is 30 too old to want to become a rigger?
How long should one be in this industry before being considered for rigging duties?

 

[ruinexplorer]

Taking a course will not make you a rigger. That being said, the quality of training that you will receive from your employer may or may not be satisfactory. That really depends on the employer. If you are just getting started, I highly recommend taking a course which would qualify for ETCP credits. By doing so, you should be getting information aplicable to this industry.

Which part of the industry are you looking to be employed in? Do you want to work in traditional theater environments or are you hoping more for arenas on concerts or other large shows? They are a bit different in the rigging skills you should be looking to learn.

 

[Dagger]

Taking a course will not make you a rigger. That being said, the quality of training that you will receive from your employer may or may not be satisfactory. That really depends on the employer. If you are just getting started, I highly recommend taking a course which would qualify for ETCP credits. By doing so, you should be getting information aplicable to this industry.

Which part of the industry are you looking to be employed in? Do you want to work in traditional theater environments or are you hoping more for arenas on concerts or other large shows? They are a bit different in the rigging skills you should be looking to learn.

I currently do arena concerts and outdoor stage
I'm looking at doing rigging in these venues
What skills do I need compared to rigging at theatres ?
Is rigstar reputable? Do they qualify for etcp credits?
I currently read books ( arena rigging and stage rigging ) and also books that teaches different knots

Can you tell me which knots are must know to do rigging ?

Should I join a rock climbing gym and practice climbing?

 

[gafftaper]

The riggers I know often are also rock climbers as there are a lot of similarities. However there are some critical differences which can lead to catastrophic disasters so getting proper stage rigging training is a must.

Becoming a rigger is much more of a journey than other aspects of tech theater. There's no one clear path. Many people take a class or two in college and work with the prof who taught the class for a quarter or two, take a rigging course here or there, get a little work and learn from the other riggers, take some rope access training, and just sort of slowly put together a combination of classes and experience which qualify them to do some entry level work and they work their way up from there.

Hey @porkchop and @What Rigger? we could use a little help here.

 

[Dagger]

The riggers I know often are also rock climbers as there are a lot of similarities. However there are some critical differences which can lead to catastrophic disasters so getting proper stage rigging training is a must.

Becoming a rigger is much more of a journey than other aspects of tech theater. There's no one clear path. Many people take a class or two in college and work with the prof who taught the class for a quarter or two, take a rigging course here or there, get a little work and learn from the other riggers, take some rope access training, and just sort of slowly put together a combination of classes and experience which qualify them to do some entry level work and they work their way up from there.

Hey @porkchop and @What Rigger? we could use a little help here.

Class in college? What can you specify what classes?

Do high riggers start off as ground riggers?

I am planning on taking rope access training ( IRATA) and then take a rigging class ( rigstar)

I'm 30 yrs old am I too late to start the journey?

 

[Amiers]

30 is the new 18. It takes a lot of strength though, so if your fit and stay active I don't see why you couldn't one day be a rigger. It is really up to you how much time and energy you want to put into it.

 

[ruinexplorer]

Class in college? What can you specify what classes?

Do high riggers start off as ground riggers?

I am planning on taking rope access training ( IRATA) and then take a rigging class ( rigstar)

I'm 30 yrs old am I too late to start the journey?

Not all colleges will have courses specifically for rigging. Instead, rigging will be part of a general stagecraft class. However, I don't know of a college course that will be giving you specific training to arena rigging. Here is a list of recognized ETCP rigging trainers.

Pretty much all of the high riggers I know started out as ground riggers.

Age is less of a concern that physical fitness and mental acuity. I know riggers who are much older than 30, and I know 30 year olds who couldn't cut it as a rigger.

 

[JD]

All of the above is a good start! Remember, there are two parts to rigging:
The physical- Being able to endure the rigors of rigging. "On the Job" weeds this out.
The Mental- Much like electrical work, a lot of what is going on is not visible. You cannot "see" if a chain has 100 pounds or 1000 pounds on it. Here is where formal training is critical.
Many things about rigging are counter-intuitive. For example, the tighter you tighten a bolt, the less stress it can take because the cumulative stress on the shaft is the sum of the static stress of tightening it, and the active stress of whatever is trying to pull it apart.

I would echo that 30 is the new 18. Age doesn't much matter as long as you have good body strength and you aren't loosing your sense of balance. There are some pretty wiry old riggers out there!

 

[porkchop]

The riggers I know often are also rock climbers as there are a lot of similarities. However there are some critical differences which can lead to catastrophic disasters so getting proper stage rigging training is a must.

Becoming a rigger is much more of a journey than other aspects of tech theater. There's no one clear path. Many people take a class or two in college and work with the prof who taught the class for a quarter or two, take a rigging course here or there, get a little work and learn from the other riggers, take some rope access training, and just sort of slowly put together a combination of classes and experience which qualify them to do some entry level work and they work their way up from there.

Hey @porkchop and @What Rigger? we could use a little help here.

I feel like the way you describe it if pretty fitting. I've seen several people fling themselves into sink or swim situations with mixed results, but since it's rigging we're talking about that's not the best way to go.

First off, learn wherever you can. Read trade articles about creative solutions. Take classes when reasonable. Talk to the riggers at work about what's going on. Hell, if you find yourself in a bar with Bill Sapsis buy him a drink and listen to him talk. Everyone's situation is different and there are probably good opportunities that just aren't available to you.

While you're learning as much as you can, find a situation where you can interact with the rigging without taking a dangerous amount of responsibility. It's easier to dip in during load-out because there's less liability involved, but depending on who is paying you they may have other work for you to do. Maybe the ground riggers will let you run out motors or untie the up riggers lines after the steel comes it. I know very few riggers that would say no to a person that wants to break down the steel once they're done using it. These are small things, but you're getting to know the people and the equipment that you would like to work with daily.

Sadly one of the best ways to become a type of technician in this industry is to just start doing it. This is doubly not conclusive to becoming a rigger. Stay flexible and do what you can to put yourself in a situation where you will be asked to do some rigging work.

 

[egilson1]

Some great advice here in regards to finding a mix between work experience (apprenticeship) and education.

If you are looking to eventually become ETCP certified, it is important to understand that before you have your ETCP you must qualify to take any of the three tests, and this is based on work experience and is the candidate has it, college credit for classes/degrees within the performing arts disciplines. Training classes do not count towards qualifying for the test. Only towards renewing your certification every five years. That being said I know plenty of people who have taken an ETCP recognized class and felt they were well prepared for taking the arena or theatre rigging test.

If your serious about becoming a rigger, I would suggest the following:

1) Work as many rigging calls as you can. Your going to start at the bottom of the ladder, but your hopefully going to work with a wide range of experienced riggers. Some will be more than willing to answer questions and help you learn the craft. Some will be curmudgeons and never tell you a "Trade Secret". You can still learn from them by watching.

2) Pursue getting some training. goto http://etcp.plasa.org/cert_recognized/trainers/rigging.htm and http://na.plasa.org/skills/rigseminars.php to find recognized trainers/programs and scheduled training classes. As a trainer I want to see people go to multiple DIFFERENT classes over the course of the career, as you will learning something new from each trainer. You never stop learning.

3) Read! Pick up the following books:
Entertainment Rigging - Harry Donovan
Stage Rigging Handbook - Jay Glerum
Entertainment Rigging for the 21st Century - Bill Sapsis

Hope this helps. Please feel free to ask any follow up questions you might have.

Regards,
Ethan

 

[Dagger]

Thanks for all the replies

Just wondering if this is a useful course to attend ?

http://www.ihsa.ca/training/course_descriptions.cfm?TrainingID=26


I started reading stage rigging handbook , few pages in I already have a little trouble with the math(formula etc)

I was wondering how important is knowing the calculations as a rigger?

 

[porkchop]

Thanks for all the replies

Just wondering if this is a useful course to attend ?

http://www.ihsa.ca/training/course_descriptions.cfm?TrainingID=26


I started reading stage rigging handbook , few pages in I already have a little trouble with the math(formula etc)

I was wondering how important is knowing the calculations as a rigger?

There is probably a lot of good information to be had there, but they say that the class focuses on "rigging practices in the construction and industrial environments." That is probably beyond the scope of what is useful as an entertainment rigger. You probably won't be swinging a load on a crane any time soon and the industrial guys just do some crazy stuff. There are probably better, more entertainment specific, ways to spend your money. If you do end up talking with construction/industrial guys keep in mind that in general the numbers are all the same but we do everything upside down (eg. lifting a single point with a chain hoist suspended by a bridled point vs. lifting a bridled load with a single point crane).

As far as the calculations, they do come in handy. I've run the numbers on the spot a few times during rig day. I would say it's more important to understand the concepts behind the calculations than to have the formula's memorized, but that understanding in my experience comes from doing the calculations and thinking about what that means to the system. The best calculating method I've read yet is the one explained in the first chapter of Entertainment Rigging for the 21st Century. They're focusing on uneven bridles, but the method is pretty universal and easy to understand. Sadly the rest of the book isn't something I could recommend for learning to become a rigger. It's more of a book about advanced topics for after you've spent some time as a rigger.

 

[Dagger]

Something I didn't mention before but the company also have steel climbers ( scaffold stage building) it's something I am also interested in. Most riggers at my company are riggers/ steel climbers so I want to do steel climbing first and then ground rigger, high rigger.


Do you guys have steel climbing / scaffolders position?


Is this IRATA or SPRAT certification something I should look into?


http://www.cras.ca/training/irata_training/

Fee is $1600 is it a good investment.

Any of you guys have training in this?

 

[porkchop]

Rope works are where the big shows are going. More and more there are just places in the rig that you can't get to without rope access. It's definitely something that big shows will train their employees to do. That being said, it's more something I would expect someone on the touring crew of a big show to do rather than a guy from the local crew. It's a lot of money, but the emphasis on rescue training and adapting to the environment you're given is very relevant to the industry. I don't think it'd make you any better at figuring out if you can do given bridle X with Y diameter cable, but it'd certainly make you a guy I'd rather have in the high steel with me. It's certainly something I would list high on my CV but given that I'm not very familiar with the Canadian job market, I don't know of any US employers that have jobs that require or even list as preferred a SPRAT cert.
SPRAT seems to be pretty well accepted in Commonwealth states. I have a friend that got his SPRAT 2 in Vegas and went right into windmill maintenance in Oz. Several Vegas companies use a modified SPRAT training as qualification for rope access, but things are weird here south of the border and in most cases training doesn't count for insurance or legal purposes unless it's supplied after hiring by the employer.

 

[What Rigger?]

Rope works are where the big shows are going. More and more there are just places in the rig that you can't get to without rope access. It's definitely something that big shows will train their employees to do. That being said, it's more something I would expect someone on the touring crew of a big show to do rather than a guy from the local crew. It's a lot of money, but the emphasis on rescue training and adapting to the environment you're given is very relevant to the industry. I don't think it'd make you any better at figuring out if you can do given bridle X with Y diameter cable, but it'd certainly make you a guy I'd rather have in the high steel with me. It's certainly something I would list high on my CV but given that I'm not very familiar with the Canadian job market, I don't know of any US employers that have jobs that require or even list as preferred a SPRAT cert.
SPRAT seems to be pretty well accepted in Commonwealth states. I have a friend that got his SPRAT 2 in Vegas and went right into windmill maintenance in Oz. Several Vegas companies use a modified SPRAT training as qualification for rope access, but things are weird here south of the border and in most cases training doesn't count for insurance or legal purposes unless it's supplied after hiring by the employer.

I'm a house guy, with a Level 2 SPRAT cert- and somewhere past 3000 hours logged off the ground. SPRAT is good, but if you can go the IRATA route, do so. It's far more accepted (albeit a more strenuous set of standards to pass for your cert) worldwide. SPRAT is catching up, and I have no problems with my training and to be honest, I'm nervous in traditional fall protection environments vs. rope access simply for the rescue factor. Actually, if given my choice between any kind of lift and a set of ropes, I'll go ropes all day long.

Rigging really is a journey, not a destination. You'll never know it all. No good rigger has ever said "My knowledge is complete". Learn on the job. Find classes. Go to seminars. Almost any info you can find will help you. Don't accept it blindly though! In other words, don't show up on the job site saying "I learned this thing from YouTube!" You won't be invited back.

 

[Dagger]

I watched this video and few questions

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1:17 where is the rope
Coming from ( on his left,did someone throw
It to him)?

1:41 little spanset he chokes around the line ( what is the name of the line and is there a special name for
That little spanset? Is he doing a double choke?)

2:10 he takes the working end of rope and puts it through the orange thing (what's that name of that orange thing ; is that a bridle?)

2:15 what knot is he tying?

6:10 what is that brown bag called he's removing?

I'm thinking there is a guy on the catwalk lowering the whole thing ?

What is he lowering ; is it a motor
?

7:35 why is he doing a clove hitch on the pole ?


On a scale 1-10 how difficult was this rig?

Is ther a name for this type of rigging?


Lots of questions I have
Thanks for all replies!

 

[rigstar]

I watched this video and few questions

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1:17 where is the rope
Coming from ( on his left,did someone throw
It to him)?

1:41 little spanset he chokes around the line ( what is the name of the line and is there a special name for
That little spanset? Is he doing a double choke?)

2:10 he takes the working end of rope and puts it through the orange thing (what's that name of that orange thing ; is that a bridle?)

2:15 what knot is he tying?

6:10 what is that brown bag called he's removing?

I'm thinking there is a guy on the catwalk lowering the whole thing ?

What is he lowering ; is it a motor
?

7:35 why is he doing a clove hitch on the pole ?


On a scale 1-10 how difficult was this rig?

Is ther a name for this type of rigging?


Lots of questions I have
Thanks for all replies!

The rope appears that it came from the catwalk from another rigger that is pulling up the rigging point.
The sling that that person is using is not a SpanSet type sling, it is a narrow flat webbing sling normally used for rock climbers and arborist. These slings normally do not have a load capacity tag and are use for person use. All slings used for overhead suspension of loads must have a load capacity tag stating the Work Load Limits (W.L.L.) in a Vertical hitch, Choke hitch, and basket hitch which is based on a 5 to 1 safety factor. This is an OSHA law. If that sling he was using has a legible load capacity tag on it, then it can be used to suspend loads above ground level.
The orange think that you are referring to is called a shackle which is the main load shackle of the 5' basket hitch that was used.
That rigging point that was being lowered was a dead hang not a bridle, although basket hitch are used on bridle legs as well.
The knot that is commonly used and is a standard knot to use for pulling up and lowering rigging cables is called a Bowline.
The brown bag is called a burlap which is used to pad the steel beam that the basket hitch cable goes around to prevent abrasion on the steel cable sling and the steel beam.
There is a person on the catwalk assisting the rigger on the steel beam to lower the rigging point to the ground rigger.
He is not lowering in a hoist, he is lowering in the cable sling leg that was attached to the chain hook of the hoist. hoist was already on the ground.
The clove hitch that he tied was just to secure the end of his rope so it does not drop down to the ground. I'm surprised to read that you know what a clove hitch is and not knowing that he tied a Bowline on the shackle.
Since the person on the beam structure is not the one pulling up or lowering in the rigging points then difficulty to do the rigging in that building would be low as long as a person has hands on training for rigging points on an open steel structure.
Since the rigging was done in an arena it would be Open Steel Arena Rigging when there is not a false ceiling panels to take out before the rigging can be performed.

I hope that answers your questions and if you ever have any others please do not hesitate in contacting me at my email address: [email protected] or call my office: 1-413-585-9869.

I read a disturbing comment on here from the person egilson1 (Ethan Gilson). Its sad to have to read lying and slandering remarks from a person that doesn't even know me and I certainly do not know him. Students here learn all aspects of rigging hands on mostly and class room. It's 7 days of at least 82 hours in that week with a hands on and written test for the Rigstar certification. Students get to make up slings as well as break test them. We do make up a 3/16" cable sling with Nico Press oval sleeves.The students are shown the efficiency of having 3 crimps compared to having 4 crimps swaged. The question on our written test for how many crimps are required for the oval nico press sleeve for a 3/16" cable would have a correct answer of 4 not 3. So I don't know how some one like him can slander me like that. We have a good relationship with the National Telephone Supply Co. that manufactures the Nico Press products that we use in the field and teaching students the correct use of their products.
Using some of the Nico press tools to swage crimps on a 3/16" cable only require 2 crimps where some of their other tools require 4 crimps.
See the attached PDF file publication of the National Telephone Supply Co. tech sheet that I have high lighted so you can see proof of this.
Ethan Gilson does not have the complete knowledge as I do if he is slandering on a public form website which is grounds for a law suite against him.
Some people thing they can get away with say lies about some one just to get the business for themselves.
Look at my credentials compared to his. I'm 62 years old and been involved in rigging the majority of my life on major tours and manufacturing ect.
Please call me so I can answer any question you may have to set the truth straight. I'll give you as many phone numbers as you want of past student that have attended my certification course.

 

[porkchop]

Mid super detailed answer rigstar responded. He'll be a better source than I. I will say try and get your hands on Entertainment Rigging by Harry Donovan. We could easily call out page numbers for you to read to explain some of the work practices you're asking about.

 

[egilson1]

I would like to publicly apologize to Mr. Kendal for my comments. It was inappropriate for me to make a comment based on secondhand information. I hope you can except my apology. I have removed my previous comments. Again I sincerely apologize.

Regards,
Ethan



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ammre]

I've taken proper rigging courses, incidentally one of the ones I took was egilson1's 3-day course, and they were great and all for the mathematics and the "why" behind a lot of things. It made me familiar with the equipment used and how things were planned out. So it was great for the planning and thought aspects of it all BUT...
None of them made me even remotely ready to actually pull points in the ceiling. The head riggers at the local arena managed to get a teach day and I got to learn the actual jobs of being an up-rigger as well as a ground rigger without there being a show in house. That was fantastic. All the nuances of what your hands are actually doing were so helpful. We also had a segment where we practiced a ropes rescue should someone fall and be hanging via their lanyard. How to attach them to our harness and release their lanyard. Then we got to rappel down from the ceiling (individually) so we could experience it in a controlled fashion before ever, godforbid, needing it in an emergency situation.
I got lucky with that teaching day.
http://www.rigworld.org/tools-of-the-trade/ this is a nice writeup of the tools it's good to have. I'll admit, I'm still new so I basically just have a harness and a double lanyard. The house I'm in has a fair number of ropes for common use. I will say being in the ceiling is physically demanding. You're going to earn that paycheck, your spine may wind up earning it too. Don't skimp on your fitness.