School maintenance and light bulbs

[Jody]

This is my first post. Bear with me, now that I'm being questioned by admin. My OCD is kicking in and I'm trying to learn. What I have figured out, we have a 96 circuit box , 48 with a sensor keypad, although some don't have breakers and this was installed in 05. The new teacher said they just purchased a new Etc color 20 control board. 90% of the lights don't work. She gave me headphones to talk and I started testing starting with the catwalk. The plug would have voltage. The light wouldn't have continuity. I would take the bulb out and it would have continuity and look good. Some were black and you could see they were burnt. I cut a wire jumper to connect the pin holes and the light fixture would have continuity. I then noticed most of the bulbs, one pin was arced but still had continuity and in the light it wouldn't. I took an end cap apart and the ceramic part fell apart where the bulb plugs in and one of the metal cups was dark. Years ago I would get a hand full of bulbs. One thing that has me puzzled. The circuits on the catwalk averaged 123 volts and the pipes above the stage averaged 113 to 115. Years and years ago, I would get a few 120 volt and a few 115 volt bulbs. Some were 750w and some were 575w. It's what the teacher asked for. Last few years they only asked for 115v and twice as many. Is there really a difference. I'm used to seeing it as a nomenclature.... 110, 115, 120. The new teacher said she wants to go LED but things needed to be changed in the panel and it would be costly. Where do I begin?

 

[jtweigandt]

First you may have a bunch of bad sockets that have arced and or corroded. So when you plug them in, they may not be establishing contact.. Now the kicker.. without replacing the socket, it is very likely that you will
in very short time arc the bad pin side on your brand new bulb as well... and ruin bulb after bulb (or more appropriately "lamp")

From your description I"m assuming source four fixtures.. For those you can buy replacement lamp sockets, or even an entire back end to just screw in place and swap the plug out.

As to 110 115 and 120 volt ratings... the 110 will burn slightly brighter but with much less life.. in the hundreds of hours. There are long life hpl bulbs available rated in the thousands of hours. Those may be listed with a higher voltage. The voltage
will be the spec they are tested at for a given light output and life. So you could use any of those voltages on your rig.. but the higher voltage will last longer in general, And that's what I would want
for a school (again assuming source four fixture)

Bottom line, unless you want to kill a bunch of bulbs one after the other, you're probably going to have to replace a lot of those arced sockets.

(edited to correct base for socket)

 

[Jody]

First you may have a bunch of bad bases that have arced and or corroded. So when you plug them in, they may not be establishing contact.. Now the kicker.. without replacing the base, it is very likely that you will
in very short time arc the bad pin side on your brand new bulb as well... and ruin bulb after bulb (or more appropriately "lamp")

From your description I"m assuming source four fixtures.. For those you can buy replacement lamp bases, or even an entire back end to just screw in place and swap the plug out.

As to 110 115 and 120 volt ratings... the 110 will burn slightly brighter but with much less life.. in the hundreds of hours. There are long life hpl bulbs available rated in the thousands of hours. Those may be listed with a higher voltage. The voltage
will be the spec they are tested at for a given light output and life. So you could use any of those voltages on your rig.. but the higher voltage will last longer in general, And that's what I would want
for a school (again assuming source four fixture)

Bottom line, unless you want to kill a bunch of bulbs one after the other, you're probably going to have to replace a lot of those arced bases.

Thanks for the reply. I never messed with these lights. I just got $30 bulbs and in the last few years.....way more than I ever got. 16 years ago, I was told to clean the filters in the panel box. The new teacher seems to know what she is talking about I guess. My OCD makes me want to learn and my googling confirms. She is the only teacher that has requested the panel be powered down. She was surprised I cleaned the filters. She wanted to pull the breakers out and check each one because of the age and dust. She did say the lights were Source 4 Jr, parnel, and farnel. She also said she never used the Juniors and was surprised that some had 750w in them and three pins. I wanted to try and do something myself. It comes down to a money thing. She said a tech would have to come from Houston.
PS.....Yes, she said it was a lamp and not a bulb, and it was an instrument not a light. I'm learning!

 

[derekleffew]

She did say the lights were Source 4 Jr, parnel, and farnel. She also said she never used the Juniors and was surprised that some had 750w in them and three pins.

"Farnel" ? No such animal. Although unlikely, might have meant Fresnel.

All 750w HPL lamps should have 3 pins. The "extra" pin carries no electricity and acts as a "locator pin" to prevent putting a 750w lamp in a fixture intended for only up to 575w (such as the Source4-jr.)

I was told to clean the filters in the panel box.

Dimmer rack.

PS.....Yes, she said it was a lamp and not a bulb, and it was an instrument not a light.

Along the same lines: The base is part of the lamp and plugs into the fixture's socket.

Here's a thread on replacing sockets; there are many others. https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/etc-source-four-socket-problem.3246/#post-34141
It's easy, but you should watch someone else do it a couple of times before solo flight.

 

[DELO72]

This is my first post. Bear with me, now that I'm being questioned by admin. My OCD is kicking in and I'm trying to learn. What I have figured out, we have a 96 circuit box , 48 with a sensor keypad, although some don't have breakers and this was installed in 05. The new teacher said they just purchased a new Etc color 20 control board. 90% of the lights don't work. She gave me headphones to talk and I started testing starting with the catwalk. The plug would have voltage. The light wouldn't have continuity. I would take the bulb out and it would have continuity and look good. Some were black and you could see they were burnt. I cut a wire jumper to connect the pin holes and the light fixture would have continuity. I then noticed most of the bulbs, one pin was arced but still had continuity and in the light it wouldn't. I took an end cap apart and the ceramic part fell apart where the bulb plugs in and one of the metal cups was dark. Years ago I would get a hand full of bulbs. One thing that has me puzzled. The circuits on the catwalk averaged 123 volts and the pipes above the stage averaged 113 to 115. Years and years ago, I would get a few 120 volt and a few 115 volt bulbs. Some were 750w and some were 575w. It's what the teacher asked for. Last few years they only asked for 115v and twice as many. Is there really a difference. I'm used to seeing it as a nomenclature.... 110, 115, 120. The new teacher said she wants to go LED but things needed to be changed in the panel and it would be costly. Where do I begin?

Pretty much echoing what JT and Derek said. The voltage drop is common and it's based on the distance the electricity has to travel from the source (wall). The closer you get the lamps to the voltage they are receiving, the closer to "normal" spec they will achieve. If you use lower voltage lamps (ie. 115V, and power them at higher voltage (ie. 120V), they will burn brighter, whiter, and for a shorter lifetime as you are basically overdriving them. That actually was the entire reason 115V HPLs were first invented. They were made to be brighter than the 120V lamps already on the market (FEL, EHD, BTL, etc.) If you want longer lifetime, you can either dim the lamps, or buy higher voltage versions of the same lamp 120V vs. 115V, and they won't be driven as hard, and will achieve longer lifetime. There are also Long Life versions of each (noted with /X in the lamp description) which will give you 4 to 5x the lifetime- but at a reduced output.

If the socket contact has carbon build-up (blackened), then you need to replace the socket so it once again has good electrical contact, or you will start burning through lamps. Sockets (the ceramic and wire) aren't expensive, and all the major lamp distributors have them. For Source Fours, it's OSRAM part # 69818 TP22H socket, and they shouldn't be that expensive.

(there are no 110V rated theatrical lamps.)

 

[cbrandt]

With you're current state of knowledge and experience, I think it would pay off in spades for you to bring in a professional for a day and just go over everything to build your knowledge and help point out problems. Where are you located? One of us might be nearby.

Even if one of us isn't, I'd be there's one or two operating stagehands reasonably nearby. It kind of sounds like you're rebuilding the institutional playbook from the ground up here, and it is nice to have some solid ground to stand on.

 

[macsound]

I've replaced plenty of S4 sockets, but wondering: Could you use a wire brush to remove corrosion from inside the socket?

 

[soundman]

I've replaced plenty of S4 sockets, but wondering: Could you use a wire brush to remove corrosion from inside the socket?

The wire brush would remove the corrosion but the socket would have less metal in in, which would not make contact with the lamp as designed, potentially resulting in more damaged lamps. Think duct tape on a flat tire compared to a new tire, better than not doing it but not a long term solution.

 

[derekleffew]

I've replaced plenty of S4 sockets, but wondering: Could you use a wire brush to remove corrosion from inside the socket?

One of, if not THE, first "solution" to this problem, from the dominant manufacturer (rhymes with hand) of the time (early 1980s) for TP22 socket:
Build a tool; take a wooden 1"x1"x6" or 1" dowel. Hammer a 6d nail partially into the end leaving at least 3/4" sticking out. Cut off the head of the nail. Stick the nail in the hole of the burned contact and root around. In and out and in a circular motion. Yes, one is removing corrosion, but also valuable socket material. A band-aid solution at best. You'll get another few hours out of the socket, and as well as infect every new lamp you stick into it.
The other step is to take emery cloth or as @ship calls it crocus cloth to "clean" the lamp pins. Unfortunately this too removes material, which makes the pin smaller, so it doesn't make as good a contact, so guess what? it arcs more.
If anyone ever tells you "just rotate the lamp 180° reversing the pins," feel free to slap them with the tail of the lamp cap.

This is where the "corrosion from arc-ing is like venereal disease" comes from. Before you know it, your entire inventory is infected. The only cure is surgery, on every fixture afflicted. Luckily sockets cost about the same, usually a little less, than one lamp change.

 

[ship]

Derek long time buddy, nice to hear from you.

Really emery Cloth the same as Chrocus Cloth? Similar but McMaster https://www.mcmaster.com/products/emery-cloth/?SrchEntryWebPart_InpBox=emery+cloth Not the same. I stock both types and neither are similar. Silicone abrasive fiber from grinder to Dremmel wheels I more use these days, but none jermain to a G-9.5 based HPL lamp. That's nutz above about a nail is it? 25 years ago one might have been able to re-surface say a PAR 64 lamp pad at best, but mostly it's resurfacing G-22 and larger, and Medium pre-focus or screw based and larger lamp sockets.

Really dislike the S-4 JR fixture... lamp explodes or expands in dia. due to finger touch ballooning, you have to take apart the fixture to remove it. Never put more than a 575w lamp into it.

Agree with most above, bad lamp socket are cheap to replace, and as a rule, do not ever put a bad lamp with corroded pins into a perfectly good lamp socket. Especially in this pin size range or lower in size. Believe I started that standard of disease concept to which I'm glad has carried on.

The 115v verses 120v, verses extended life HPL lamp all depends on the venu's individual needs. Artistically if all lights of a certain lamp are the same, one adjusts the eye to it and you have head room for specials to be brighter with a lot of options. How did they ever light stages with less efficient fixtures?

Jody, seemingly you are either student or School maintinence person charged with or maintaining the lights. I know it gets hard in caring.. keep it up, we are with you and the teacher is in the same world also in getting stuff done. Clarify please the status in defining what you can do. Student or school staff? The teacher seemingly has some training and these problems might be pre-this person. A professional or lighting company as offered as advice in the past is possibly the best above advice that can be offered. Locally from company, college etc. what to do should be free. Take bids in getting many to offer local advice in what's needed.

Not just "oh' you need an upgrade", but servicing the fixtures or with the upgrade to LED what else is needed in either case. And or the... "oh' we can replace all these lights with a few LED PAR's".... Large choices in any way professionally serviced in how to properly professionally deal with the situation.... There are modern theories in lighting where various LED lights will replace what is there. I certainly have installed a lot of them over the past couple of years. Others where the S-4 LED lamp cap will replace. Others from a High Scool local to me in asking for help, perhaps just a service call for now will get them thru the season. There is options for your school needs.


Of news on the good side! A few months ago I worked on a S-4 incandescent conversion to the LED caps for Leko's. Inspected and cleaned the interiors of the body/gate of the fixtures in doing so. Sent the assembled lens train thru the school's dish washer system for the cafitera. This without taking apart the lens train assemblies!

Worked amazingly in cleaning the lens train assemblies - highly recommended in the first time doing so for industrial dish washer cleaning of lenses, this much less entire lens train assemblies. (Might have to inspect the screws soon after, or add oil to them given aluminum/black oxide and moisture... tba thing.)

 

[cbrandt]

I forgot to add earlier, send us some pictures! Word can do a very good job of letting us know where you're at, but we can also see a lot of things from pictures of your equipment and space.

 

[derekleffew]

Believe I started that standard of disease concept to which I'm glad has carried on.

You weren't the first, remember my stories date from the early 1980s, but thank you for perpetuating the concept. High school kids may pay closer attention if they hear the words VD, or, (geographically-dependant) a faculty/staff member may not be allowed to mention it at all.

Can no longer use the term Master Bedroom in Texas. I'll continue to wonder how long connectors will be assigned as Male or Female at birth. To get really raunchy,
NSFW WARNING!
Male Cam-lok E1016 connectors have foresk!n !

Bet you never thought of that before, did you?
NSFW WARNING!

Inspected and cleaned the interiors of the body/gate of the fixtures in doing so. Sent the assembled lens train thru the school's dish washer system for the cafitera. This without taking apart the lens train assemblies!

Worked amazingly in cleaning the lens train assemblies - highly recommended in the first time doing so for industrial dish washer cleaning of lenses, this much less entire lens train assemblies. (Might have to inspect the screws soon after, or add oil to them given aluminum/black oxide and moisture... tba thing.)

I'm wondering if any were 36° or any size EDLT, both of which have two lenses in the train. I doubt even a dishwasher will do much good cleaning the insides of lenses. On the other hand, short of a life in a haze-filled or pyro-dusted environment, they shouldn't be that dirty.

 

[ship]

Some were 36 degree. I had not thought of that dual lens in a train question. The initial appearance was just fine in cleaning even a dual lens assembly inside a lens train. I will hopefully be back therre in a few weeks and note to inspect this detail. I was more worried about stickers falling off in sending them thru only in beam angle lots, but it (didn't seem to be the case of stickers falling off.) The only problems were slight moisture left over, and a further question of black oxide coated screws securing the lens train, normally don't like to get wet. TBD in checking later results. Also, assuming no problems, I would only do so with modern cast aluminum S-4 or Shakesphere lens train assemblies. Otherwise for older fixtures... Do send the lens trains thru a dish washer with Jet Dry, for the best sparkle clean lens you can get. Only the lenses themselves, or the lens train housing will rust. You can also send non-dichroic, non-silvered glass, possibly enameled reflectors thru the dish washer.

More a concept of if you will drink out of the results of a dish washer, it's also sufficient to clean lenses and possibly reflectors confirmed if not dichroic to better than hand cleaning results for maintenance. Something as a concept to stess in post in doing a really good job of sustaining the fixtures.