Conventional Fixtures Side lights--What degree barrel to buy?

spydan

Member
Hey everyone,

Recently, I had been informed that my school theater has quite a bit of money saved up in our bank account, and we have to spend it before the end of the year or the school will take it to put it into the general fund. For the past couple shows, we have rented 12 source fours to put on trees we own on the sides of the stage to give some more light, since we usually have a pretty large cast (~80 people). Since we have this money, and don't really know much else we need at the moment, I was told I could put in a request to buy those fixtures. The only problem is that I don't really know what degree barrel to buy, or if we should be even using Source Fours for the job. Our stage is about 65 feet wide and about 30 feet deep. If there is a good way to figure out what degree barrel would be optimal, please let me know, or if a different fixture may be better, let me know also!

Thanks for the help!
 
I would tend to agree to go with the Jr, assuming that you don't have other Source Fours with 750 Watt Lamps, as that would require you to stock multiple lamps. Do you have other ellipsoidals? If so, what model are they, and what lamp do they use. If you are lucky enough to be allowed to purchase used gear, it can be extremely beneficial to buy some cheaper used instruments that are in good repair (therefore allowing you to buy more instruments for the same cost), and only have to stock one lamp. Also, I am guessing that the distance from the SL Wall to the SR Wall may be 65' wide, but I am assuming that if you have a 30 deep stage, your prsocenium is likely only 40' or so wide. How much of the proscenium opening is masked? The distance that really matters is how far apart your booms are. This is dictated by where your legs fly, and how many you have. If your legs create 4 Wings, it would make sense to use 4 booms. Then you can figure out what lens tube is best. I think that you will most often find 26°'s or 36°'s used in side booms, but it is not uncommon to find 19°'s or 50°'s in booms. YMMV. If you do have existing ellipsoidals, try them in the sidelight position, it may help you figure out the best option for you.
 
I would tend to agree to go with the Jr, assuming that you don't have other Source Fours with 750 Watt Lamps, as that would require you to stock multiple lamps. Do you have other ellipsoidals? If so, what model are they, and what lamp do they use. If you are lucky enough to be allowed to purchase used gear, it can be extremely beneficial to buy some cheaper used instruments that are in good repair (therefore allowing you to buy more instruments for the same cost), and only have to stock one lamp. Also, I am guessing that the distance from the SL Wall to the SR Wall may be 65' wide, but I am assuming that if you have a 30 deep stage, your prsocenium is likely only 40' or so wide. How much of the proscenium opening is masked? The distance that really matters is how far apart your booms are. This is dictated by where your legs fly, and how many you have. If your legs create 4 Wings, it would make sense to use 4 booms. Then you can figure out what lens tube is best. I think that you will most often find 26°'s or 36°'s used in side booms, but it is not uncommon to find 19°'s or 50°'s in booms. YMMV. If you do have existing ellipsoidals, try them in the sidelight position, it may help you figure out the best option for you.
We have about 15 source fours, but 10 are tied up in the FOH position, hence then need for us to rent the ones we usually put on booms (we lamp them with 750 watt lamps). We do usually buy used gear, normally from the same place we rent from. I got my stage measurements from a diagram that was already drawn up, I haven't actually measured to ensure accuracy (I did, however misread the diagram at first, it looks like the actual opening is closer to about 50-55 feet instead of 65 like I said earlier). We have 5 legs and 3 travelers. I will attach the two diagrams I am working off of so you can see what I can see.

Thanks for your help
 

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So based on the arrangement of your Floor Pockets and the Legs, I think it would make sense for you to use 3 booms per side. If you already have source fours with 750 lamps, then it is probably better to go with the regular S4, as it is one less lamp to stock, and you will most likely at some point want the extra punch to power over the FOH and other overhead, for example, what if the next person after you decides that they want to move the lights and use them in the 1st Catwalk or some other position. With the lens tubes, what have you rented, and how did it work. Do you remember what they were, or could you possibly look at the rental PW, and see what was ordered/delivered? That will give you a starting point to work from. Also, can you find out what the instruments you have now are? That would allow you to test them in the position.
 
Spydan- allow me to suggest two ideas:
1. A double-hang at each side position. The higher mounted fixture will focus farther across stage; the lower fixture will focus nearer. Thus the upper might be 26 deg and the lower- 36 deg for example. For a very large stage and heavy sidelight priority, I've even used a triple-hang at each location.
2. If you use a smartphone, look into an app called BeamCalc. It will help you with calculations based on your choices, AND it will draw a small diagram. Ultimately, I try to match the intensity level of the two lights. Play around with the height of each light to achieve effective overlap of the two beams.
 
Spydan- allow me to suggest two ideas:
1. A double-hang at each side position. The higher mounted fixture will focus farther across stage; the lower fixture will focus nearer. Thus the upper might be 26 deg and the lower- 36 deg for example. For a very large stage and heavy sidelight priority, I've even used a triple-hang at each location.
2. If you use a smartphone, look into an app called BeamCalc. It will help you with calculations based on your choices, AND it will draw a small diagram. Ultimately, I try to match the intensity level of the two lights. Play around with the height of each light to achieve effective overlap of the two beams.

Ditto Jay's suggestion about double units for focusing far and near. Our stage is 39ft wide and we use 3 x 26 deg. and 3 x 36 deg., all as 750W S4's, in ea. wing on our flying ladders, paired as a 26 & 36 side-by-side and two-fered on a dimmer. Our lower pre-hung dance towers uses single 36 deg. S4's at shin, +2ft, +4ft and +6ft. This is a decent configuration, though on occasion a touring dance event will not use both the 26 & 36 units on the ladders, simply unplugging a unit.

I would not invest in zooms for a side lighting application unless you find yourself re-positioning and re-purposing this equipment, as in my experience there's less need to vary beam size in a stage wing side position. We do provide as needed, 50 degree barrels for a set of 8 units in the towers but I've mostly never used them, the 36 deg. being about perfect for this stage width. We do use zooms extensively in our box positions as well as exclusively on our overhead electrics, totaling about 90 S4 zooms in use, so about half our ellipsoidal inventory.

Attached is an image of our "Dance" Plot
WW Dance Plot with Towers v2015.jpg
 
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I tend to disagree with Jr. Zooms. Yes, they are cheaper and they zoom, but the quality of the fixture and its flexibility are a let down next to the slightly more expensive Source 4 Ellipsoidal. I would determine the number of fixtures you need and the barrels you need and simply add to your current stock. A regular Ellipsoidal has interchangeable barrels, holds a B or A-sized gobo, has a rotating barrel, can hold a 750-watt lamp, and has a better beam quality. If you don't already have a stock of JR Zooms, I wouldn't buy any.
 
You said you've rented twelve instruments in the past for shows. Has it been a different mix of degrees from show to show, or have you settled on a certain beam spread? If you've been renting the same instruments over and over again, why not just buy those? Or is there something you haven't liked about what you've been renting and would like a change?
 
You said you've rented twelve instruments in the past for shows. Has it been a different mix of degrees from show to show, or have you settled on a certain beam spread? If you've been renting the same instruments over and over again, why not just buy those? Or is there something you haven't liked about what you've been renting and would like a change?
In the past, they have rented 36 degree lenses. I have only been involved in two shows where we have used them (we only rent them for musicals where there is a very large cast), and the problem that I have been having is that I haven't been able to get an even amount of light on the actors and not have the light bleed out into the house. I don't really understand the benefits of buying a larger lens size if I will just be shuttering it to be the same size as a smaller degree lens. Basically, I am looking to understand the reasoning for using different lens degrees. Another difficulty, which i don't know if it could be solved, but when actors get close to the lights, they get incredibly bright on the side towards the light and it looks really bad. Would adding some sort of diffusion lessen this and spread out the intensity? Obviously the closer something is to the fixture, the brighter it will be, but it would be nice if there was a way to spread out the beam and not have the light bleed out into the house. I am quite new to this, so I don't know much yet, but I am starting to learn, so your help is appreciated!

Thanks
 
Another difficulty, which i don't know if it could be solved, but when actors get close to the lights, they get incredibly bright on the side towards the light and it looks really bad.

The suggestion to use a narrower beam higher up to reach further on the stage will help limit the intensity needed by the lower instruments focused closer to the wings.
 
I would go with 50 degree lens tubes for Side lights. You can always Iris/Pinspot gobo, or shutter it down, but I'd rather have more coverage than less on something with such a short throw. I used to always use Altman 4.5"x9s or 6x9s (50 deg. & 40 deg.) back in the day, and always found "wider is better" and I could shutter down if I needed to. But it's a lot better than having dark spots! Mind you-- I'm referring to TRUE Side lights on a Boom, and not high sides where the distance is further away. If you are referring to High Sides on the end of a pipe- then 36 deg. tubes is probably a better bet for the nearer throws, and 26 (to match beam size) for longer ones.
 
In the past, they have rented 36 degree lenses. I have only been involved in two shows where we have used them (we only rent them for musicals where there is a very large cast), and the problem that I have been having is that I haven't been able to get an even amount of light on the actors and not have the light bleed out into the house. I don't really understand the benefits of buying a larger lens size if I will just be shuttering it to be the same size as a smaller degree lens. Basically, I am looking to understand the reasoning for using different lens degrees. Another difficulty, which i don't know if it could be solved, but when actors get close to the lights, they get incredibly bright on the side towards the light and it looks really bad. Would adding some sort of diffusion lessen this and spread out the intensity? Obviously the closer something is to the fixture, the brighter it will be, but it would be nice if there was a way to spread out the beam and not have the light bleed out into the house. I am quite new to this, so I don't know much yet, but I am starting to learn, so your help is appreciated!

Thanks

No. The brightness thing is just something we all have to deal with. Think of it like Gravity. Like it or not, it's there and you can't avoid it. If you diffuse it, you will have no output when they aren't right in front of it, so you will ruin the normal effect you want, just to try and avoid the "sometimes" effect you don't want. Also, as you note the diffusion will spread the beam all over the cyc, the legs/curtains, and the house potentially.
 
I would look at source 4 jr zooms. They're small, light weight, and would give you a lot of versatility.

Do you really like the jr's? What versatility do they offer that even an old Altman dosen't? Why not suggest just plain old fully functional s4s. Even the mini has real ERS features.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Do you really like the jr's? What versatility do they offer that even an old Altman dosen't? Why not suggest just plain old fully functional s4s. Even the mini has real ERS features.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I really do, obviously I would prefer to have a full size source 4 with a couple of barrels, but on a budget I would go for a jr zoom. The versatility is in the zoom, and the zooms are actually a little brighter than the fixed jrs. I also like the small size for side trees, they're easier to hang, and the much lower profile leaves less for dancers to run into or get snagged on.
 
I really do, obviously I would prefer to have a full size source 4 with a couple of barrels, but on a budget I would go for a jr zoom. The versatility is in the zoom, and the zooms are actually a little brighter than the fixed jrs. I also like the small size for side trees, they're easier to hang, and the much lower profile leaves less for dancers to run into or get snagged on.


I see. Never really thought about them that way. I can see your point.
 
I really do, obviously I would prefer to have a full size source 4 with a couple of barrels, but on a budget I would go for a jr zoom. The versatility is in the zoom, and the zooms are actually a little brighter than the fixed jrs. I also like the small size for side trees, they're easier to hang, and the much lower profile leaves less for dancers to run into or get snagged on.

Are the zooms actually brighter? I just looked at the photometrics and I'm not sure I see that trend.
 
Are the zooms actually brighter? I just looked at the photometrics and I'm not sure I see that trend.

It looks to me like they are pretty close. The fixed ones look like they are a little brighter. Thought the zooms seem like they are a tad brighter on the long throw. Probably just because they can do 25°.
 

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