Control/Dimming ETC ThruPower, System Design

Casey

Member
Hey All,
I'm in a position at my company where I specify lighting systems for theatres. Don't Don't everyone hate at once. Everyone has a qwirk in their system that they hate, but someone has to specify the gear...

Here is my question:

Fairly new on the scene is ETC's Through Power modules for the Sensor3 racks.

TR20AF.pdf

These modules make more distinct the issue of connector types on plug strip.

While it has always been possible to utilize constant current modules to provide "wet power" (straight 120v, non dimming, in this case coming through the dimmer rack as a relay) to movers, leds, or any other items that need power, but cannot take power that has been run through the components in a dimmer. However, that was more of a 'hack' and I always was fine with telling people to just use an adaptor from their stage pin plug strip to the Edison that most of those devices need. The thought there is that someone who knows enough to pull a D20 and put on a CC module, will know to use that adaptor very carefully.

Now that the Through Power modules are on the market, and we are in this new era where all new theatres should be thinking about the eventuality that someone some day will likely want wet power in every position in a theatre: what connectors should we be putting on the plug strips, and likewise on the corresponding LEDs, moving lights, and so on. The options I currently think might work are:

All stage pin
Pros:
-utilizes the industry standard for theatre
-all fixtures have the same connector, so maintaining an inventory is easier
-easy to switch a circuit from dimmed to wet power and back
-less expense in installing plugs trips as there is no duplication.
Cons:
-Easy to accidentally dim something that shouldn't dim

Have stage pin and Edison connectors on each circuit
Pros:
-Utilizes all industry standard connectors, and all fixtures will have the 'normal' connectors on them. So conventionals will be stage pin and the movers will edison
-easy to switch a circuit from dimmed to wet power and back
Cons:
-Easy to accidentally dim something that shouldn't dim
-more expensive plug strips as each circuit has two connectors on the plug strip.

So what do you guys think / do? If you were to walk into a theatre to do a show with conventionals, movers, LEDs and through power modules; what connectors would you like to see on your plug strips and fixtures?
 
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What connector does ETC recommend be used with the TR20? Any opinions ST/DNorth/Hans/Kirk et al?

My take: Where connectors are used, every circuit running through a dimmer rack should be 2P&G, with the theatre owning as many adapter, FED s as R20/CC20/TR20 modules (twice as many actually, since we're talking primarily about 20A modules). It's a two-step process: when one swaps modules (or changes modes in the TR20) one also adds/removes the adapter s on the other end.

With some exceptions, when one sees a stage pin connector, one expects the circuit to be connected to a dimmer. Likewise, one expects an Edison (5-15 or 5-20) to be non-dimmed/constant power. Intentionally avoiding Twist-Lock s, as I don't like them for 120V, and only tolerate the L6-20 and L21-30 for other uses.

Two recent threads threads that may be relevant:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...9-2p-g-stage-pin-vs-edison-vs-twist-lock.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/30114-208-volt-2p-g.html

(BTW, I don't like the term
"wet power" (straight 120v, non dimming, in this case coming through the dimmer rack as a relay).
Did you make that up yourself, or is it a common phrase in your vernacular? If "wet" is as you say it is, would "dry power" be dimmed/dimmable? That seems counter to the noize boys mixers definitions, where a wet signal contains effects and dry is the unadulterated microphone. I'd think Dry should mean constant, and Wet should be dimmable. ((There's also the issue of what a dry line actually means.))

From http://churchtecharts.org/2012/4/26/ctw-nab-2012-coverage-etc-thrupower-module.html :
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Isn't that CEM 3 THE LATEST AND GREATEST THING EVER, since sliced bread? :rolleyes:

Astute viewers may have noticed that not only didn't Mr. Hilton LOTO the SP6 dimmer pack before removing the ThruPower module, but also he didn't even turn off the module's breakers. <FAIL>

ETC folks: Is the plate covering slots 3-12 just for display/demo purposes, or an actual product option? If the later, why?

.
 
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What connector does ETC recommend be used with the TR20? Any opinions ST/DNorth/Hans/Kirk et al?

My take: Where connectors are used, every circuit running through a dimmer rack should be 2P&G, with the theatre owning as many adapter, FED s as R20/CC20/TR20 modules (twice as many actually, since we're talking primarily about 20A modules). It's a two-step process: when one swaps modules (or changes modes in the TR20) one also adds/removes the adapter s on the other end.

With some exceptions, when one sees a stage pin connector, one expects the circuit to be connected to a dimmer. Likewise, one expects an Edison (5-15 or 5-20) to be non-dimmed/constant power. Intentionally avoiding Twist-Lock s, as I don't like them for 120V, and only tolerate the L6-20 and L21-30 for other uses.

Two recent threads threads that may be relevant:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...9-2p-g-stage-pin-vs-edison-vs-twist-lock.html
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/30114-208-volt-2p-g.html

(BTW, I don't like the term Did you make that up yourself, or is it a common phrase in your vernacular? If "wet" is as you say it is, would "dry power" be dimmed/dimmable? That seems counter to the noize boys mixers definitions, where a wet signal contains effects and dry is the unadulterated microphone. I'd think Dry should mean constant, and Wet should be dimmable. ((There's also the issue of what a dry line actually means.))
.

Ya, not crazy about the wet power thing as well, much prefer non-dim power.

Being in a theatre that has active speakers everywhere, all my distrobution for that gear is done via power-con connectors. Yes, I know they should not be panel mounted... but mine are that way. With the new powerCON True connector hopefully this will get listed as a panel mount device and we can just go to that. Granted, I would like to see an open standard but that is where we are I guess. I don't like edison in the air, it is not a strong enough connection. I would rather see L5-20's go into the air for constant power.
 
...Being in a theatre that has active speakers everywhere, all my distrobution for that gear is done via power-con connectors. Yes, I know they should not be panel mounted... but mine are that way. With the new powerCON True connector hopefully this will get listed as a panel mount device and we can just go to that. ...
'Tain't never gonna happen.
The PowerCon and True1 are both UL-recognized as appliance connectors--they must be installed inside a piece of listed equipment. They are not suitable for field installation in wall plates, according to their listing.

ST
Plus, I for one would refuse to put all my eggs in one manufacturer's basket for a connector.

I don't like edison in the air, it is not a strong enough connection. I would rather see L5-20's go into the air for constant power.
So you'd replace every 5-15 plug on every moving light, scroller power supply, LED, etc., with an L5-20P? At $8-$20 a pop? HUGE waste of money.
 
How does one switch between non dim and dim power on these modules?

It seems like these would be great for touring houses that see a lot of shows come and go. Those venues could use a system that instead of having to swap to relay modules, can just flip a switch to switch to non-dim mode on the dimmers for those shows with mostly intelligent fixtures, and then back for shows with lots of conventional fixtures. It's hard patching except 1000x simpler.

But for regular theatres in Chicago, I don't see the point of investing in these cards. Why not just have dedicated edison power circuits on raceways that go to the relays in the dimmers? I think most of these venues will want to stick with a lot of conventional fixtures with a mix of movers and LEDs. Seems like it would be better to keep separate circuits for intelligent lights and conventional lights rather than having either circuit be either non dim or dim. It just seems like it would be too easy to ruin a fixture by accident. Some LD walks in, doesn't know what they're doing and bam, sad moving lights.
 
I'd be putting 2P&G on every receptacle that can dim. If every circuit is Through Power, I'd still make them all 2P&G as they might be dimmable, dependent on control function. Then I'd have a boatload of Edison and L5-20 twist adapters.

I regularly have relay modules through out my system for dedicated power. All my receptacles coming off of a Sensor are 2P&G. My MAC 700's and Studio Spots all have L5-20 as that's what the shops use and I want comparability to whatever distro system we might add with add'l ML's. I have adapters to 2P&G for when I power of a Sensor powered circuit.
 
How does one switch between non dim and dim power on these modules?

It seems like these would be great for touring houses that see a lot of shows come and go. Those venues could use a system that instead of having to swap to relay modules, can just flip a switch to switch to non-dim mode on the dimmers for those shows with mostly intelligent fixtures, and then back for shows with lots of conventional fixtures. It's hard patching except 1000x simpler.

But for regular theatres in Chicago, I don't see the point of investing in these cards. Why not just have dedicated edison power circuits on raceways that go to the relays in the dimmers? I think most of these venues will want to stick with a lot of conventional fixtures with a mix of movers and LEDs. Seems like it would be better to keep separate circuits for intelligent lights and conventional lights rather than having either circuit be either non dim or dim. It just seems like it would be too easy to ruin a fixture by accident. Some LD walks in, doesn't know what they're doing and bam, sad moving lights.

They potentially save a lot of installation costs in wiring by eliminating the need for a separate dedicated non-dimmable power system. The modules sit in a Sensor and are essentially deeper then a standard dimmer or relay module. As the data sheet states, there's a local over-ride (at the rack) to disable remote control so that you don't accidentally set it to dimmer mode from the control desk. So you have to know what you are doing to get it to run on switched mode.
 
... It seems like these would be great for touring houses that see a lot of shows come and go. ...
A touring show must plan for the least common denominator and thus won't depend on the house dimming system at all. Except perhaps for FOH lighting positions and power/data distribution.
... The modules sit in a Sensor and are essentially deeper then a standard dimmer or relay module. ...
Wouldn't this cause issue with the dimmer rack's door closing? I thought they were the same size as any other module.
8114-etc-thrupower-system-design-20564etc_sensor3_thrupower_module.jpg


EDIT: I found a picture that better shows the size/space issue. I understand now.
8115-etc-thrupower-system-design-tr20_topview.jpg


Some more, albeit dated, info on the ThruPower module in this thread.
 

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They potentially save a lot of installation costs in wiring by eliminating the need for a separate dedicated non-dimmable power system. The modules sit in a Sensor and are essentially deeper then a standard dimmer or relay module. As the data sheet states, there's a local over-ride (at the rack) to disable remote control so that you don't accidentally set it to dimmer mode from the control desk. So you have to know what you are doing to get it to run on switched mode.

A few points:

1. The key advantage to the ThruPower module is that it lets the end user put his/her hand on the "transition valve" that controls the rate of change between tungsten and solid state luminaires. And indeed this rate does need to be controlled by the end user, not the system designer or specifier. The function of ThruPower (dim or constant power)can be controlled from the console via the Net3 ACN link or from the ETC Concert application (also via the Net3 link). It is also memorized as part of the show file.

2. Tungsten and LED are going to coexist for quite a long time, making the function of the ThruPower even more practical.

3. Since the function of a circuit can and will change, even on a per-production basis, having different connectors for 120V dimmed and non-dimmed circuits does not make a lot of sense. Of course, 208V circuits must have a different connector rated for that voltage..

4. Since every circuit will sometimes need to support tungsten, keeping the 20A connector and circuit rating seems to make sense.

5. So, it's a tossup between 2P&G or L5-20, but I believe they should all be the same in a facility if they come from the dimmer rack..

6. Managing the settings of the dimmer rack for dimmed or non-dim on each circuit simply becomes another task for the production electrician. Following the mantra "Assume it's dimmed until proven otherwise" should minimize issues.


ST
 
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Generally when a show with movers and non dim requirements come in the are pre-rigged truss and have a socco going to a distribution center with rack, makes no sense for a house to invest when it will be used twice a year.
 
... 3. Since the function of a circuit can and will change, even on a per-production basis, having different connectors for 120V dimmed and non-dimmed circuits does not make a lot of sense. ...

5. So, it's a tossup between 2P&G or L5-20, but I believe they should all be the same in a facility if they come from the dimmer rack. ...
So, like Footer, you would advise chopping off the molded 5-15P on every 0.5A LED unit and installing a 2P&G-20M or L5-20P? Isn't replacing a molded plug a code (or perhaps OSHA) violation in some jurisdictions?
EDIT: Not exactly en pointe , but close: 05/19/2003 - Repair requirements for the cord plug (attachment plug) of double-insulated tools. .
EDIT2: Can I put an end on a cord - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum , specifically, this post.

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Generally when a show with movers and non dim requirements come in the are pre-rigged truss and have a socco going to a distribution center with rack, ...
Not a lot of PRT and Socapex coming in to Chicago's storefront and high school theatres, Duck. I don't think Casey is talking about specifying dimming systems for 2000-seat road house s.

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...or from the ETC Concert application ...
What's this? Something new from ETC? As usual, I can't find anything on etcconnect.com about it.

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no but the houses where it would make sense do dump the cash on putting those in are the 1600 seat venues such as ours. And even then it wouldn't be for tours. As for steve It doesnt need to happen for us, our mid rails have soco breakouts and we have edison to soco adapters, its only a 20 foot to the floor for direct feed power from a break out so it wouldn't make sense to dump in the modules. Not to mention our dimmers are another floor up in a different part of the building.
 
One of the theatres I work in fairly consistently has some permanently installed relay modules with corresponding L6-15 connectors installed and they hate it. It means a lot of copper that is never used in their case. I think they've come to terms with the direct power in the raceways, but a lot of the 6 circuit Socapex breakouts on the deck are 1 relay and 5 dimmers and that consistently drives the ME absolutely crazy. It would have been a much better use of money to buy less rack space but a few more dimmer modules with a few relays modules that could be swapped out as needed. Also I think all 2P&G would have been better for them with a few adapters laying around.
 
It seems like most higher end fixtures don't come with connectors. So I don't see why this would really be an issue at all. Besides, I you or your venue's electrician can't keep track of what fixtures should be on dimmers an which should not, then you have a lot bigger problem than the connectors!

So in my opinion any circuit that is tied to a dimmer rack, no matter what modules, should be a standard connector. Probably 2P&G or L5-20.
 
That is a great question and I am happy to read the various responses so far.

I specified my first system with the TR20AF module and just received word it shipped out. We have had an in house version of this discussion complicated by the fact the client is a community college music department. In house lighting knowledge will be quite limited until a real pro will show up with a touring event. One of the main goals has been to future proof for expanded LED use. Whew!

We have gone to 5-20 for all the "Hot" circuits (CC20) and 2P&G for the dimmed. There are only a few of the TR modules. Our latest discussion was to treat the TR as Hots as that will be their default mode, but I am now changing my mind. It is unlikely there will be much module swapping as the staff lighting knowledge is limited.

In any event I like the idea; "Assume it's dimmed unless you've checked."
 
...We have gone to 5-20 for all the "Hot" circuits (CC20) and 2P&G for the dimmed. ... It is unlikely there will be much module swapping as the staff lighting knowledge is limited. ...
All it takes is for one user of the venue to read here on ControlBooth about the benefits of CC20s for MLs/LEDs/etc. And once he/she swaps (hopefully following proper LOTO procedures) a CC20 and a D20, your system's philosophy flies out the window. You then have FOUR circuits with the "wrong" connector type. I do hope you also specified a bunch of adapter, FED and adapter, MED s.

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NOT directed at RickR: For years, end users have complained about Theatre Consultants specifying the wrong QUANTITY of circuit s in the wrong locations; now the user can also bemoan the wrong TYPE of circuits and CONNECTORs.
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