Call "911" or not...

[gafftaper]

I worked my way through school as a boiler operating school custodian. Working around asbestos was a daily thing and I had a lot of training so I knew what to do and what not to do. Asbestos is bad stuff but only when it turns friable and breaks down into little tiny particles and gets in your lungs. The nasty thing about asbestos is that the particles are so small that they don't fall to the ground. They will stay airborne in a closed room for days. When you walk past you stir them right back up again. Asbestos still in its original fiber form is completely harmless.

Should you be afraid if you see a little asbestos wiring in a theater? No. Should you try to do something about it? Well yes of course, but not for fear of the audience all dying next week. Asbestos is a prolonged exposure killer. It's the lighting technician who works with these instruments all the time who is at the highest risk here. When soaking wet, asbestos is completely harmless. Your concern is tiny particles floating into the smallest corners of your lungs and staying forever. This isn't possible when asbestos is properly sealed off, still in good condition, or wet. As Ship said, you should really be more worried about the particles in the dust on the floor.

Asbestos was a wonder product and it is EVERYWHERE. I would be far more concerned about the safety of the sound proofing in the building, the tile floor, the material the ceiling is made from. They are also likely to be asbestos and far more dangerous. Do you have "popcorn" ceilings at home? Ever work for a brake shop? Bad news brake pads are loaded with the stuff. It's everywhere. Here in Seattle they were doing air purity testing inside schools and they were testing one school located very close to the freeway during rush hour traffic. It's an old school full of asbestos but (due to the slow grinding stop and go rush hour traffic outside) there was actually more asbestos in the outdoor control samples than inside the building.

There are lots of federal laws covering proper disposal of asbestos. I doubt it's legal to just cut off the whips, bag them and throw them in the trash. At the same time this potentially opens a HUGE can of worms. Once you start down the asbestos removal path it gets REALLY expensive REALLY fast. I think just about every building you've ever been in built before the 1980's could be shut down for asbestos if someone really put their mind to it.

Yes it's a problem.
Yes it should be removed from theaters.
No don't call 911.
As Awhaley said consult an actual expert before panicking.
Work with the theater to develop a solution of how to gradually replace the cables.

 

[jwl868]

There is so much information about asbestos that a post or thread cannot cover it all. I suggest the following sources:

For general information about asbestos in the environment, see US EPA Asbestos Home Page:

Asbestos | US EPA


For information about occupational exposdure to asbestos see OSHA Asbestos “home page”:

Safety and Health Topics: Asbestos


For specific environmental regulations about asbestos, see Toxic Substances Control Act regulations in 40 CFR 763 (Subchapter R) (Asbestos is not regulated as a hazardous waste. I don't think any states classify it as a hazardous waste, either.):

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:


or this to get to the entire Code of Federal Regulations:

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:


(There are also National Emission Standards in 40 CFR 61, Subpart M.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: )

Joe

 

[gordonmcleod]

Normally containing the lead in a fiberglass sheath is considered at least up here in canada acceptable also many older devices they have felt that it was not a large risk factor
In fact I just was installing a set of strong super troupers that had that white mineral fiber cable in them and the rectifiers and when pointed out to the CSA inspector they had no issues with it

 

[ship]

There are lots of federal laws covering proper disposal of asbestos. I doubt it's legal to just cut off the whips, bag them and throw them in the trash. At the same time this potentially opens a HUGE can of worms. Once you start down the asbestos removal path it gets REALLY expensive REALLY fast. I think just about every building you've ever been in built before the 1980's could be shut down for asbestos if someone really put their mind to it.

Yes it's a problem.
Yes it should be removed from theaters.
No don't call 911.
As Awhaley said consult an actual expert before panicking.
Work with the theater to develop a solution of how to gradually replace the cables.

Very valid counterpoint.

 

[quarterfront]

Once you start down the asbestos removal path it gets REALLY expensive REALLY fast. I think just about every building you've ever been in built before the 1980's could be shut down for asbestos if someone really put their mind to it.

...and the asbestos bell is one that once rung cannot be unrung.

...and in the words of Warren Buffet, "Never ask a barber if he thinks you need a haircut".

 

[FatherMurphy]

If you recommend to the theater that they replace the cables, make sure they realize that the new wiring has to be high temperature teflon jacketed wire, not garden variety SO or THHN wire. I've seen a couple fixtures where the school custodian chopped up an orange extension cord to make new tails for fixtures, with most impressive results.

The teflon wire isn't terribly expensive, you should be able to get a set of precut and terminated leads and fiberglass sleeving for less than $20 per fixture. If you have a lot of fixtures to convert, I'd suggest looking into getting spools and cutting your own. Replacing or rethinking strain reliefs is part of the rewiring process, and everything will need bench focusing after the wiring is done.

I've often gone into small town school theaters, and while talking to the superintendent/principal/maintenance chief, mentioned that "That fuzzy white insulation on those lights' cables? The name for it starts with the letter 'A'..." This usually leads to a purchase order a few weeks later for several teflon wire kits.

 

[reggie98]

My final words on this. By 911, I meant first the town health deptartment, then maybe someone in the "inspections" department of the town, as this is a risk they are choosing to expose the patrons, the cast and crew to, last option would be the state D.E.P. The President/Chairperson/head honcho of the non-profit (very liberal definition) theater is well aware of the situation. This knowledge doesn't stop them from hanging, moving or focusing fixtures with Asbestos tails over the audience area. If your teenage or younger child was volunteering or performing at a theater like this, could you still be as ambivalent?

 

[gordonmcleod]

I think a grain of salt is always needed and a cool head should prevail
The best solution is for a phased in retrofitas I doubt they could afford a wholesale one at once and in most locations they would not worry about it anyway

 

[Matthew Symons]

Hi everyone, new to this forum
I know there are many threads about asbestos wiring, but wanted some confirmation.
There is a community theatre that has a few fresnels that appear to have asbestos wiring (this theatre has pretty good light inventory). What is the best thing to do in this situation?
I will attach a photo, could someone confirm if this is asbestos or not

 

[Footer]

Hi everyone, new to this forum
I know there are many threads about asbestos wiring, but wanted some confirmation.
There is a community theatre that has a few fresnels that appear to have asbestos wiring (this theatre has pretty good light inventory). What is the best thing to do in this situation?
I will attach a photo, could someone confirm if this is asbestos or not

Trash the fixture and buy new. http://www.fullcompass.com/product/306017.html

Those fixtures really are not worth saving. It takes a decent amount of work to get them cleaned out and adapted for a single whip.

 

[STEVETERRY]

Difficult to take the hysteria seriously considering there's NOT ONE single case of illness or death solely attributable to asbestos insulated wires on stage lighting fixtures. Thousands (millions?) of lights, thousands of stagehands, for about 100 years and continuing today, and not one reported case.

Were it not for unscrupulous lawyers, it's likely the general public would have never heard of mesothelioma--2,000 new cases a year out of a possible 300,000,000.

Err....not quite. New York stagehand Barbara Bercu passed away about 10 years ago of mesothelioma. Prior to her death, she sued a number of manufacturers and rental shops, alleging that her illness was due to asbestos exposure from fixtures and asbestos borders. The suit was settled after her death.

ST

 

[JD]

It's a lot like smoking. Quantity, duration, and personal genetic makeup all play a role. The way I view it is, "why play in traffic if you don't have to?" Is there a hysteria? Maybe. But if you are the one with an asbestos related illness and you could of avoided the exposure you would be asking yourself why you took the risk. Life is a terminal condition, but we all want to give ourselves the best odds at having a good, healthy, long one!

In the picture posted, the wiring looks a little puffy and flakey. That's when things get a little dangerous.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I have consulted on a few major renovations for public schools funded by "life safety " funds because of asbestos insulation on the lighting.

 

[Apmccandless]

For disposal I would refer you to the book The Health & Safety Guide for Film, TV & Theater by Monona Rossol, an industrial hygienist. The book is a great reference and clearly lays out the risks of Asbestos wrapped cords and offers legal and safe abatement methods. Namely to either double bag the instruments and call toxic waste disposal, or hire an abatement company.

 

[Les]

Hi everyone, new to this forum
I know there are many threads about asbestos wiring, but wanted some confirmation.
There is a community theatre that has a few fresnels that appear to have asbestos wiring (this theatre has pretty good light inventory). What is the best thing to do in this situation?
I will attach a photo, could someone confirm if this is asbestos or not

Yes, that is asbestos.

Either phase the fixtures out of inventory or replace the whips. How many is "a few" and do they get used often? If they're never used I'd just part with them. If they are needed, plan for repair or replacement.

You could also just chop the tails off now and plan on replacement later.

Of course, get permission first. If they don't approve, just store them away. You may or may not have the authority to deface the fixtures but you do have the power to not use them. All in all a couple of lights, especially if undisturbed, is not the biggest deal. But it is well worth correcting if you have the ability.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

If the owner of these knowingly allows you to handle asbestos, they are in trouble. My advice is don't touch them and tell the owner you suspect these are a hazard.

Its usually less expensive to replace the unit than abate it following all the regs.

 

[Les]

Its usually less expensive to replace the unit than abate it following all the regs.

Could you expand on this? I understand that proper disposal costs can add up, but whether you're throwing the leads away or the entire fixture, you're still abating asbestos.

 

[Robert]

My asbestos experience. I had a tech room that years prior to my arrival had been the location where the old asbestos leads had been cut from lighting fixtures and then replaced. I was concerned and reported to our safety folks, nice to have. They did an air quality test and found no measurable amounts of asbestos. So no problem. I also worked an outdoor amphitheater and we had asbestos leads. They worked fine until it got foggy. Asbestos loses it resistance to passing electricity when wet.
My advice, call an air quality company and get the air in the room tested. Don't touch or abrade the leads. Let the people in charge know the issue. Put it in a letter, you do not need to be an alarmist, just let them know the facts. If they choose to do nothing,then you will get a picture of how they feel about your and their audiences health.
Landfills require you to bag and identify asbestos being disposed of in their facility. It has a special area for disposal.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

This topic is an *excellent* exemplar of the difference between *Importance* and *Urgency*, a distinction I try to make when setting up ticketing systems.

Is this problem *important*? Sure it is.

Does it need to be fixed *next week*? Probably not.

Underrated chains on battens are a "priority one" ticket. This one, though, is a "we really need to get this fixed at some point, and if a opportunity doesn't seem to be presenting itself, we need to make one".

The problem will be more all the people -- and parents of the people -- who are involved, who cannot think rationally and do a reasonable risk analysis on the problem. People -- even many professionals -- are *singularly* bad at risk assessment, skewing too far in either direction.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Could you expand on this? I understand that proper disposal costs can add up, but whether you're throwing the leads away or the entire fixture, you're still abating asbestos.

Workers in ssuits and air sampling and testing - just too expensive to save an old Fresnel. Sure, you can cut the leads off and toss them in a can, but you've broken a bunch of regulations.

I think the hazard is greatly exaggerated. But I know from bidding experience if you require the work to be done to occupational safety standards, just bury the whole fixture and buy a new one for less.