Question for High Schools: Deeper apron or deeper US?

BillConnerFASTC

Well-Known Member
In the process of designing a new HS auditorium and stage. Currently plan has about 30' of depth upstage if proscenium and 7 to 8 from proscenium to edge of stage - the furthest projection of a shallow curve. I have resisted the very deep forestage, just enough for a lectern and speakers or a table and chairs. If adding stage depth would you rather have it in forestage or upstage of proscenium?

I prefer it upstage, do things behind a curtain are not so far away, and it's easier to have scenery and good lighting positions. The architect prefers it downstage because he did that 10 years ago and thinks they liked it. If it's added forestage, there seems to be no understanding that it needs to be lit well - a second catwalk - and should permit some way to rig or suspend scenery and props over it.

The pit is fully below stage and there will be a row of removable platforms downstage regardless of where it is.

I'd like to present both to school but architect is not supportive.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
I'd like the upstage space. As a student in a high school with an auditorium with low amounts of space any more space on the stage would be good. For our shows our wings are almost always full and any extra space on the stage itself would be great. Perhaps with a traveler to close it off to prepare for scene changes or just to use a storage space in general would be how I would want space to be spent in my theater.
 
I personally prefer to have more space upstage, as that tends to be the actual usable space for most performances. Actors and directors alike seem to like it when there's space for their actors to come out of the wings and not have to "balloon" down the stage too much. Technical people would agree that upstage space is more valuable too, since as you mentioned, it offers plenty of wash lighting options, and a decent selection of rigging options.

The only reason I'd like to have a big forestage is if the venue was designed solely for the purpose of political debates, presentations, and other "official" things where you don't want wandering eyes (or a lost presenter).

Just because somebody likes something doesn't mean they'd like it more if it was different. I like the self-climbing hoists I have over the house in my auditorium, but I'd like it more if they went with a more typical crawlspace or catwalk type of rigging.
 
I am torn between the two choices. More upstage space gives good room for cyc and uplighting. But, we do a ton of set changes with the grand closed, using the forestage quite often.

We have about 12 feet from proscenium to edge at center, about 10 feet at the left and right ends.
 
upstage upstage upstage, enough room down of the main for a table/lectern/two person scene...gain extra space when pit not needed for meetings and what not, always wish for a deeper stage and more storage/crossover space...
I have a far amount of space downstage of the main, and I do not think lighting was ever considered, always a pain to light well...

Sean...
 
I agree with the above. In any theatre I've ever worked the space between the plaster line and the edge of the pit is a nuisance to be "shouted over" by any stage production (or "played over" by any orchestra or band concert.) This is only a greater separation between the production and the audience. If you want to put the production IN the audience, scrap the proscenium and put it all the way in the audience. In a proscenium theatre enough room for a lectern and a few chairs is more than enough.
 
I'll add my vote for more upstage space. It seems many high schools rely heavily on wagons and other "push on" type set pieces. More upstage stage space also means more wing space. That's a win in my book. If a situation calls for a shallow playing area or the need to change a set behind a curtain comes up, a traveler or a boarder can always be brought in. I realize in many venues it's the only choice choice for masking but I like to avoid bringing the grand in mid-act.
 
If you do have 10-15 or more feet ds of curtain, does it seem reasonable that it should be possible to light it like the upstage space, similar front, top, side, and back lighting positions? For me the more recent practice of video everything demands the good backlight capability.

How necessary is the ability to rig - suspend - scenery and props over forestages? A pipe grid or a catwalk and gaps in the clouds under it or similar.
 
If you do have 10-15 or more feet ds of curtain, does it seem reasonable that it should be possible to light it like the upstage space, similar front, top, side, and back lighting positions? For me the more recent practice of video everything demands the good backlight capability.

Seems reasonable. However, we mostly frontlight the forestage. Still comes through okay on video.

How necessary is the ability to rig - suspend - scenery and props over forestages? A pipe grid or a catwalk and gaps in the clouds under it or similar.

For us, not at all. We don't have any means or need to suspend anything downstage of the plaster line.
 
I would say yes, every area should be able to be able to have at least some decent lighting....catwalks are a great thing....just watch your head on that air duct....
 
I would recommended that the majority of the space be added up stage however without seeing the full arch you might add a little more in front of the proscenium as well but only another 2'.

I have never had scenery that was not self supporting in front of the Arch in the way of theatrical events so I have never had a need to fly things there, but I actually find I never have enough lighting for the space in front of the arch that is designed to work for that area.
 
Honestly, anything happening in front of the curtain is generally a 'limbo' scene, so no props or set pieces. That being said, we only have about five feet to work with in front of the main when our pit cover is open so we are really not able to hold a scene out there while we do a scene change (we can do basic scenes, but a song / dance is out of the question, just no room for choreography). So I would love if I had about 3 more feet in front of the main and before the pit cover.

The VAST majority of 'events' in the auditorium are meetings and awards type things so it is absolutely essential that I be able to host those events in front of a closed curtain while other things are set up on the stage.

If a top lighting position were available, that would be a dream. At the bare minimum, if I had individual control over the row of house lights that are above the forestage that would be amazing.

Will this theater have a fly loft? A full fly system can really reduce the need for upstage space.

How much space are you talking? enough to add a crossover hallway behind the stage?

I currently have about 30' upstage of the main and have never had a problem with having enough depth. but I have a 10'-12' deep pit cover with another 5' of space, so for everything other than our musical the directors are always pushing the kids WAY down stage to get closer to the audience for sound purposes. The big problem here is that all of our overhead mics have to be mounted upstage of the main.... It's a catch 22.

I think my ideal would be something like 30' upstage, 8' downstage, and then something like a 6'-8' arc for the pit cover.

I'm rambling now and too tired to go back and edit for clarity, so take from this what you will..... Good Morning CB!
 
Upstage preferred. I worked for several years in a room with a 60' wide proscenium, ~18' of depth at center from PL to accommodate a large orchestra pit filler system. Torm positions were inaccessible and no dedicated lighting position above apron. Orchestra pit fillers meant no scissor lifts could get up above this area if we did have a lighting position we needed to focus.

Several years of solicting quotes and trying to get approvals to add a lighting position that could at least be bounce focused, to no avail. Believe they recently dead-hung some ladder truss from the roof and put some LED fixtures up there for a couple shows using a rented 35' one-man lift.

Music events didn't care much but anything theater/dance was complicated. Apron was a completely different world in how it could be lit and the main valance was eventually removed and replaced with a couple drop boxes and a row of S4 PAR's and ERS fixtures that at least offered some back light.

As a designer, every show was a long conversation with the director about how we could or couldn't use the apron. Of course everyone wants their actors to be right up near their first row of seating (as they should be), but that just wasn't always possible. Dance got screwed especially because the extreme depth from the PL made for some interesting choreography for anything coming on/off stage between the wings and downstage center.

It was nice being able to have enough floor space downstage of the main to have talking heads and panel discussions in front of a closed curtain, but 18' was easily twice as much as was appropriate for that.
 
For my two cents, it is extremely useful to have enough of an apron to do an in one scene while the scenery is shifting upstage. ( without having to rig a show curtain ).
When we did our renovation we ended up with an apron of between 6 and 8 feet ( curved stage). 25 feet from plaster line to cyc and it is very tight as we have no fly system and typically use wagons.

If it were me I would resist more apron than this.

Note that our apron has side entrances ( actor does not have to fight through the curtain). As well as a dedicated side light and top light position. IE it needs just as much light as the rest of the stage.
 
In my HS we had about 15-18' which I found was a bit much and lighting just wasn't considered at all. So, unless the pit cover was off for a musical, it was useless for productions. Front lighting was from a 70+ degree angle and the only top light was from the house cans. YUCK.

That said, it was the only large civic meeting space in town so it was used for a bunch of over lapping events. Having that DS area to have civic or school meetings, speeches, small one night band performances, and events with the main closed to hide whatever the school or other group had in progress was so priceless. Ours was a bit much but I wouldn't have wanted less that 10-12' to use. Some decent lighting positions would have been great but for I don't see any need for scenery rigging. Generally practice was full stage shows didn't set anything that wasn't movable downstage of the main so that we could have these one off events and meetings without other show stuff showing. Plus it just never looked right having action more than a foot or two downstage of the main.

That's my 2cents
 
My gut says upstage, but the only thing that would push me in the other direction is along the lines of the aforementioned apron scenes in front of a main rag. We just did Music Man which calls for a number of those while we were flying and rolling new scenery. I would check out the distance between the main and the pit opening as ours is only 3'. Enough to do a quick scene change scene, but pretty tight quarters for Marianne to pass by Harold and Marce.
 
Upstage! but only if they follow through with the support... I cannot believe the number of schools I've seen built lately with a full-blown stage house and NO rigging. Oh sure, they install a front curtain and teaser, but they V.E. out all of the line sets!
I think your thoughts are correct too, that if the Architect really insists on having the space added to the apron then you've got to push for a second FOH catwalk , cheek positions and/or a HUGE tension grid area with all sorts of lighting positions. I can see a great advantage to having an over-large apron area. Heck they could use is as a 3/4 thrust stage.
 
Upstage, with a mid stage travler. I have about 12 ft in the apron but rarely put one off events in front of the grand. The screen is just DS of the mid. So that has become a driving factor, that and the cramped feel of the Grand when they start inviting teams and groups onstage. I tend to neglect lighting the ds lip of the apron, unless the production demands it. Icue movers cover that for one off events. Most scenic things are designed to fit US of the mid for other event flexability. Quickly hanging a banner ds of the Grand is nice, as is easy access to hanging choral mics.
 
As a school, access is everything so if the decision is for DS then catwalk would be better than pipe grid. If there are going to be assemblies or lectures when a set is on stage, or if there are a lot of band or choir recitals it might be better to add the space DS of the proscenium.
 

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