Automatic/Resistive rope locks. What are your thoughts?

[Protech]

There a number of Rope Locks on the market which automatically "lock" when an unbalanced load is detected. These range from very simple, to quite complex, and they can add considerable cost to a counterweight rigging system. Some have indicators showing the extent of the overbalance, foot pedals for "overriding" them, or require you to overcome the force of the over balance before it can be unlocked, among other features.

We currently do not produce such a product, but I've kicked around the idea and we have a few design concepts. A small number of Theater Consultants really like them, whereas others seemingly do not. Still, we're starting to see them being specified more often these days.

Having never worked in a venue that was equipped with them, I don't have much of an opinion on their utility.

On one hand, I would agree that such a device is adding some additional safety to the operation of a counterweight set. I know of at least one run-away scenario that may help to prevent.

On the other, I can see them being a pain when dealing with heavy soft goods, tall scenery, etc - and there is the fact that if you are not well trained, you shouldn't be operating the rigging system to begin with. Relying on the rope lock to hold an unbalanced load is incorrect, and having such a device may impart a false sense of security.

I can see both sides.

Lastly, while we discourage this practice (and refer to rope locks as LOCKS rather than BRAKES), a lot of venues operate line sets by using the rope lock to slow and stop its travel. Some automatic rope locks will engage the "brake" if this is attempted, bringing the line to a very abrupt stop. I don't know of any accidents caused by this, but doing so would at the very least be noisy and a unnerving with much momentum.

Do you have any experience with these devices, and what are your thoughts?

 

[derekleffew]

Surprised this tope hasn't garnered more interest.

...We currently do not produce such a product, but I've kicked around the idea and we have a few design concepts. A small number of Theater Consultants really like them, whereas others seemingly do not. Still, we're starting to see them being specified more often these days.

I see them as almost mandatory for all educational facilities.

Thirty-some years ago, I enjoyed, for the most part, working with a Tiffin foot-pedal "deadman" system. It had its quirks, but I was able to outsmart it and do some pretty stupid things, including flying my then roommate from a makeshift bosun's chair for focus: I chuckle every time I think of hearing him yell, "Slow down! I'm not an act curtain!"

The major problem with that system is that it didn't tolerate slack in the purchase line very well, and the floating floor block s were in an arbor pit in the basement. Also, even a too-long ribbon spike could activate the lock, even with the pedal depressed. The other major problem was the cost. We could have had many more lines for the same amount of money, and infact did add five or so lineset s without the deadman, which of course caused some confusion among the freshmen.

For my conflicting view, see https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/tiffin-scenics-restrictor-rope-lock.31737/#post-288526 :

As said above, if your primary concern is preventing unauthorized use, there are more economical options.

The Restrictor's primary purpose is to prevent a runaway, which it can be argued won't happen with competent personnel. The keylock is secondary.

The Tiffin version I used in the 1980s was unsatisfactory. Slack in the line would cause it to lock, tape and ribbon spike s could trigger it, and most annoying, it used a foot pedal as a deadman. If I had to specify today for a non-professional venue, I would look at a traditional rope lock that has the provision for a padlock's hasp (and I think almost all modern ones do) and a JR CLancy SureStop Headblock or similar.

Although having never used one, I think I like the idea of an "invisible" (or "passive"/unobtrusive) safety device. Do everything correctly and you'll never know it's there. Imbalance an arbor and it will save your bacon before you have a runaway. According to the marketing propaganda, at least.

 

[techieman33]

I can see where they would be good in a high school, or community theater situation. For a professional venue it would really be up to how the device worked and how easy it was to bypass it for those times that you are intentionally out of weight.

 

[danTt]

My biggest concern with these types of locks (especially in a high school) is that they have the potential to provide a false sense of security/disaster when the people using the locks at that venue expect all locks everywhere to function the same.

 

[porkchop]

Recently was talking to a local pro that helps out at the university theatre. He said they had just experienced their third runaway THIS SEASON. If I was over there automatic locks would be the first line item on the repair estimate.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Recently was talking to a local pro that helps out at the university theatre. He said they had just experienced their third runaway THIS SEASON. If I was over there automatic locks would be the first line item on the repair estimate.

Or first action is to shake up faculty/staff. Three in one season seems almost inexcusable.

 

[techieman33]

Or first action is to shake up faculty/staff. Three in one season seems almost inexcusable.

Agreed. One could be an accident, three is just inexcusable. Someone either wasn't doing there job, or wasn't trained how to do their job.

 

[Footer]

I had them on our electrics in High School. I HATED them. First, you could not throw weight with the lock open... which is by far the safest way to load an electric. Second, they locked up on nearly every spike mark that they hit. Not worth the cost. If you are concerned about safety, either train better or install automation.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I discussed this subject with PROTECH before it was posted here and decided not to share my opinion here at least for a while, but a agree motorizing is the solution and future. Never out of balance, major hazard eliminated.

 

[JonCarter]

My biggest concern with these types of locks (especially in a high school) is that they have the potential to provide a false sense of security . . .

HEAR, HEAR!! Don't depend on supposedly idiot-proof hardware. TRAIN PEOPLE PROPERLY! Raise 'em in a hemp house and they'll think about what's going to happen when they untie something! The best safety device ever invented is between the ears! Teach your crew to use it.

 

[Dover]

In the same vein as Bill, I see these as a tough sell for new educational installs.
The major advantage of a manual rigging system is its simplicity and low cost. These type of locks erode that advantage with their high cost and complexity and at the same time could pose a liability problem if they were proposed but not installed due to cost. And given that there are still significant safety risks associated with the operation and loading of manual counter weight systems no matter what locks are used it makes sense to cut a few linesets and automate the rest and eliminate the risk altogether.

 

[danTt]

In the same vein as Bill, I see these as a tough sell for new educational installs.
The major advantage of a manual rigging system is its simplicity and low cost. These type of locks erode that advantage with their high cost and complexity and at the same time could pose a liability problem if they were proposed but not installed due to cost. And given that there are still significant safety risks associated with the operation and loading of manual counter weight systems no matter what locks are used it makes sense to cut a few linesets and automate the rest and eliminate the risk altogether.

I'm not convinced automated linesets are the best for educational either. Your cost of upkeep is much higher, and while a counterweight system can be eighty years old and still perfectly fine with only minor amounts of upkeep, I do not anticipate seeing the same longevity out of an automated system, especially when you include the (usually terrible) control interfaces that rigging systems love to provide. I've seen some automated installs recently with a paradigm-esque touch panel on the wall--but no deadman toggle. Because what could possibly go wrong with someone pushing a button to fly in a pipe and walking away to do something else as it flies in?

 

[danTt]

I had them on our electrics in High School. I HATED them. First, you could not throw weight with the lock open... which is by far the safest way to load an electric. Second, they locked up on nearly every spike mark that they hit. Not worth the cost. If you are concerned about safety, either train better or install automation.

I'm going to disagree with you that loading an electric with the lock open is the safest way to do it. The safest way is to load any batten is to do the math regarding how much weight is on it, lowball it by 90-100lbs, and then test and adjust from there. Leaving the lock open suggests that a qualfied flyman is standing by the set to grab it as soon as it starts to "float" and there isn't a best practice in the world that would suggest that standing right below people loading weight is the safest solution. It's certainly a regular and well used solution, but the weight of lights are known quantities. Even if you only load for instrument weight, you are close enough to test move the batten and estimate cable weight, while standing a safe distance away.

 

[derekleffew]

... First, you could not throw weight with the lock open... which is by far the safest way to load an electric. ...

Never in nearly forty years have I ever heard of this practice. The only time the lock should be open is when the batten is moving, or about to (in stand-by).

 

[RonHebbard]

Never in nearly forty years have I ever heard of this practice. The only time the lock should be open is when the batten is moving, or about to (in stand-by).

@derekleffew @JonCarter @Logos @oldgeezers at large; In at least one venue I've worked, it was common practice to load LX pipes with the lock open and the flyman well out of the way. The competent loader would be told a safely low estimated weight, load that amount then test and add from there. The moment the loader could manage to 'grunt' the set whatsoever, he'd call down to the flyman who'd request any additional weight from there as the flyman would understand how much cable-weight was yet to be added along with how many pick lines were picking the cables including picks on cables coming from the opposite rail. This was in an old-fangled road house with single purchase arbors and hemp spot lines for cable picks being located as, and wherever, required.
Here's my most interesting run-away story. I won't name the venue or even its city.
A venue had a dark week which coincided with a week of heavy snows. When the crew returned, the most U.S. black traveller which had been parked out to the grid, was piled appreciably into / onto the deck. Purportedly there hadn't been any shows and no one on stage.
Cutting to the chase:
Apparently during the week, one of the night watchmen / city's security guards felt the need to add a little weight to the trunk of his rear wheel drive vehicle. While passing through the stage area on his nightly rounds, he came across neatly stacked collections of iron weights. Over the course of several nights, he borrowed a couple of weights and took them out to his car at the end of his shift.
You can see this coming: One night after he'd departed, the now appreciably under-weighted heavy velour traveller slipped through the lock until enough of the velour was resting on the deck and balance was restored. I believe I've heard of a similar tale occurring out on Prince Edward Island one winter during 'Anne of Green Gables' off season. Of course this could be just another old wives' tale too, you never know.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[techieman33]

I've always seen electrics loaded with the lock open and always done so myself. I can estimate what an electric will weight all day long but that doesn't mean I'll be right. At least with the lock open you'll know real fast if you threw on a brick or two to many. If it's locked you might not find out until 100lbs+ when it starts to slip through the lock or the rail operator goes to test and and takes a ride or tears up their hands trying to stop it. I find it especially important with touring shows. I can't count the number of times that their paperwork has been off by 100+ pounds one way or the other.

 

[RonHebbard]

I've always seen electrics loaded with the lock open and always done so myself. I can estimate what an electric will weight all day long but that doesn't mean I'll be right. At least with the lock open you'll know real fast if you threw on a brick or two too many. If it's locked you might not find out until 100lbs+ when it starts to slip through the lock or the rail operator goes to test and and takes a ride or tears up their hands trying to stop it. I find it especially important with touring shows. I can't count the number of times that their paperwork has been off by 100+ pounds one way or the other.

@techieman33 Speaking in favor: If you're loading in and hanging a busy road show. You may have one or two (or more) flymen on the operating rail plus two or more loaders on the loading floor simultaneously loading multiple LX, and other, pipes. This speeds up the whole practice / procedure of getting pipes in the air and the deck cleared to erect scenery or lay dance floor. It was normal practice to have loaders adding weight as soon as there was any appreciable quantity of instruments on any given pipe. In the days of PAR 56 and PAR 64 X-Rays with three and / or four colors of glass rondels, a deck crew could put several hundred pounds on an empty pipe in mere moments and they hadn't even begun adding jumpers and multi-cables yet.
Agreed: Locks open and flymen out of the way while loaders added weight per the flyman's directions but ALWAYS tested for any sign of 'floating' along the way. A skilled loader may be amongst the junior members of the crew but he'd better KNOW HIS JOB and be paying attention. Often one or two flymen could keep three or four loaders busy simultaneously.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I'm not convinced automated linesets are the best for educational either. Your cost of upkeep is much higher, and while a counterweight system can be eighty years old and still perfectly fine with only minor amounts of upkeep, I do not anticipate seeing the same longevity out of an automated system, especially when you include the (usually terrible) control interfaces that rigging systems love to provide. I've seen some automated installs recently with a paradigm-esque touch panel on the wall--but no deadman toggle. Because what could possibly go wrong with someone pushing a button to fly in a pipe and walking away to do something else as it flies in?

I'm sympathetic to your points but believe it is a natural and safer direction. Yes, schools especially have gotten away with little maintenance of theatre equipment in general and that will change with motorized rigging. But everything else has also increased in it's complexity - cars, houses, appliances, etc. Why should entertainment technology not also move forward, especially when there are likely safety benefits? And yes, just like other equipment in schools, annual maintenance contracts will be necessary.

 

[Malabaristo]

I'm sympathetic to your points but believe it is a natural and safer direction. Yes, schools especially have gotten away with little maintenance of theatre equipment in general and that will change with motorized rigging. But everything else has also increased in it's complexity - cars, houses, appliances, etc. Why should entertainment technology not also move forward, especially when there are likely safety benefits? And yes, just like other equipment in schools, annual maintenance contracts will be necessary.

Also, in some ways I feel like it's easier to make that inspection/maintenance actually happen annually with a motorized system. How many schools have gone decades without an inspection to their manual system because, "Eh, it's just some ropes and pulleys..."? The added complexity of a motorized system can help make the argument in those cases.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Also, in some ways I feel like it's easier to make that inspection/maintenance actually happen annually with a motorized system. How many schools have gone decades without an inspection to their manual system because, "Eh, it's just some ropes and pulleys..."? The added complexity of a motorized system can help make the argument in those cases.

Or the LCD screen and/or yellow "service required" light? I admit I've thought about a box on the wall that is a timer and a light for an otherwise purely manual system. Clearly the people responsible for managing high school theatres need all the help possible to get the attention needed to stay safe.