Stage floor problems

I have recently laid in a new Hardboard floor on our stage. Gave it two coats of flat black and called it good. Well I've had nothing but problems since. Any tape peels up, not just the paint, but the first layer of Hardboard. The slick layer. What can I do? Multiple layers of paint? Some kind of sealant? Anyone ran into this issue before?
 
Yeah you gotta seal it. I would give it another coat of black and let it dry then seal it. Others will recommend sealant. Personally I like off the shelf sealer from the big box stores.
 
Just to clarify, the failure is not the paint but the hardboard.

Sounds like poor quality hardboard. Clean and repaint is about all I think you can do short if replacing or another layer of hardboard.

Have the hardboard spec? Local big box store?
 
Yeah you gotta seal it. I would give it another coat of black and let it dry then seal it. Others will recommend sealant. Personally I like off the shelf sealer from the big box stores.
What kinda sealer are we talking about? Like a polyeurathane sealant?
 
Just to clarify, the failure is not the paint but the hardboard.

Sounds like poor quality hardboard. Clean and repaint is about all I think you can do short if replacing or another layer of hardboard.

Have the hardboard spec? Local big box store?
Just to clarify, the failure is not the paint but the hardboard.

Sounds like poor quality hardboard. Clean and repaint is about all I think you can do short if replacing or another layer of hardboard.

Have the hardboard spec? Local big box store?
Yeah, from Lowe's. Never head a problem like this before.
 
The problem with the big box stores is they will change suppliers in a second, and no idea of what quality they'll have day to day.

If you have a scrap unpainted, see if tape will pull it apart. I don't think any coating can fix that.

I see Lowe's site only lists a sub 1/8" and a sub 3/16" and I've always specified 1/4 when doing just a hardboard covering. I'm not sure that would affect your problem.

Stage floor remain one of the most problematic elements if a theatre.
 
What kinda sealer are we talking about? Like a polyeurathane sealant?


Yeah that's exactly it. Bill does make a good point about things changing hands but Minwax isn't going anywhere soon and I have had good luck with that.

He is right as well about the thickness.

Ideally you should start all over and sand it ,prime it ,paint it twice , and seal it twice.

With the way new paint is being made allow ample time for drying usually 24 hours.

You literary could have a paint watching party lol. GL

Also don't swear at Ron he is old and might misread into it.
 
I strongly recommend against sanding hardboard. The theatre consultants just discussed this and are nearly unanimous in never sanding at least new hardboard, and sanding old is a last resort.

I'm unclear how the poly will help since the failure seems to be not a coating but interlayer in the hardboard. If the paint and top layer of hardboard peel, what will the poly do? It sure won't penetrate the hatdboard.
 
Poly is a great sealer and provides that extra layer of protection creating a slick non abrasive surface that *shouldnt* pull up. Depends on the tape.

Really it comes down to what he laid down.

If the paint was applied wrong I would most definitely sand the areas of issue and start from scratch or you will just be painting over chipped/pulled paint that over time will just crack and peel.

Guess we play the waiting game for some answers.
 
Amiers - the paint coatings are not failing as I understand it. The hardboard is pulling apart. If you want the tape to not pull apart the floor, use different tape or wax the floor so the weakest bond is the tape to top coat. If the same tape sticks to poly, that will still pull floor apart.
 
Amiers - the paint coatings are not failing as I understand it. The hardboard is pulling apart. If you want the tape to not pull apart the floor, use different tape or wax the floor so the weakest bond is the tape to top coat. If the same tape sticks to poly, that will still pull floor apart.


I feel if the paint process was applied properly primed painted sealed with cure times in between the issues would be resolved as it would provide a good layer of protection regardless of the hardboard used.
 
One of our floors has the same problem. The paint adheres but the hardboard fails.

A national distributor for theatre products including spike tape said she has seen the issue more frequently lately and thinks something has changed in the way hardboard is being made. Maybe they've got some "green" formulation that doesn't bond the fibers as well as it used to?
 
So I thought I'd call one of the manufacturers. Those days are probably gone. So far I can only find one in US - Stimson. http://www.stimsonlumber.com/products/hardboard/hardboard/ Good downloads there. I found 5 members of the American Hardboard Association - but it appears only Stimson makes the basic 4 x 8 sheets - the rest all ake products of hardboard or mostly other panels of all sorts - but not hardboard. Chased another source based on data sheet at Home Depot site - looks South American. HD calls it tempered but the manufacturer does not claim to make tempered hardboard.

The more things change, the more they change.
 
So I thought I'd call one of the manufacturers. Those days are probably gone. So far I can only find one in US - Stimson. http://www.stimsonlumber.com/products/hardboard/hardboard/ Good downloads there. I found 5 members of the American Hardboard Association - but it appears only Stimson makes the basic 4 x 8 sheets - the rest all ake products of hardboard or mostly other panels of all sorts - but not hardboard. Chased another source based on data sheet at Home Depot site - looks South American. HD calls it tempered but the manufacturer does not claim to make tempered hardboard.

The more things change, the more they change.
Bill, this sparked my interest, I did a little more investigating and I'm really starting to wonder if the Hardboard we layed wasn't tempered, or at least the tempering process was cheap. Im not sure where the stuff we used was bought...probably Lowe's or Carter Lumber...if that's the case...I'm not sure what can be done. It may just keep peeling. My thought is to put down a layer of 1/8" maso that is properly tempered and paint that then. It'd save me from having to pull up all the old stuff.
 
I think the tempering is the basic problem. Paint on non-tempered tends to soften and separate the hardboard in my experience. When you get the tempered stuff, let it sit in your theater for several days to adjust to your humidity level before you fasten it down (also my experience).
 
Tempering is basically warm oil bath to make it more resistant to moisture. I think I've read you're suppose to prime untempered with oil base. Would not hurt to prime all hardboard with oil base.

I'd still try to find a piece of what you used and experiment. Tape. Water. Etc.

But to solve you problem - yes - recover. Somewhere there is a good document on this - a deceased professor from Pennsylvania iirc. It's about spacing, acclimating, fasteners, and paint.
 
I think the tempering is the basic problem. Paint on non-tempered tends to soften and separate the hardboard in my experience. When you get the tempered stuff, let it sit in your theater for several days to adjust to your humidity level before you fasten it down (also my experience).
The last time I received and laid approximately 24 sheets of 4' x 8' x 1/4" double tempered Meso' ( Tempered on both sides ), I was shocked to find they were of differing lengths, differing widths and, WORST OF ALL, they were rhomboid [Not cut with 90 degree corners]
All ordered at the same time, from the same supplier and delivered on the same truck.
Sides were parallel to sides and ends parallel to ends on MOST, but not all, of the sheets.
Some sheets had non parallel sides thus they were narrower at one end than the other.
Finished lengths and widths were inconsistent by between 1/16th to" to 1/8th" over the length and / or width of the sheets.
Discovering MOST of the corners were lesser or greater than 90 degrees by enough to matter was the worst part of laying the Meso'. "They" taped the differing widths of seams and applied two coats of a high-pigment (designed to be thinned with water) black "egg-shell" paint and the Meso' was only down for five weeks in total: The last 2.5 weeks of rehearsal plus 3 weekends of performances. I won't speak to painting and sealing as neither are my expertise.
How to lay / secure in place: Double sided tape, vs. ring nails vs. counter-sunk flat head screws has been beaten to death here in lengthy posts and I won't delve into it. All I'll mention is "they" (Those in charge and calling the shots) intended to slit or remove the masking tape, then lift the floor and store for future use.
Short version: What remained post strike was trash. Most of the tape was pretty much destroyed over the five weeks. Most of the tape brought the surface with it if "they" attempted to remove it NO MATTER HOW CAREFULLY. Less than 6 sheets were worth saving. The remainder came up in so many broken chunks with SERIOUS surface wear in heavily blocked locations that they weren't worth saving to cut down for any appreciable future use.
Bottom Line: Five weeks and less than 6 sheets were worth saving.
To quote a previous poster: "That was my experience"
As to allowing time for moisture content to acclimatize: I've seen this work to great success with luan mahogany sheets in another venue. The Meso' I've mentioned above was laid flat on the unused auditorium floor and periodically flipped over to expose alternate sides over the course of 4 to 5 days where it was free from foot traffic prior to being transferred to the stage deck for laying. [And then the fun began as we tried to make a respectable deck from a delivery of strangely mis-matched sheets]
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
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I think the tempering is the basic problem. Paint on non-tempered tends to soften and separate the hardboard in my experience. When you get the tempered stuff, let it sit in your theater for several days to adjust to your humidity level before you fasten it down (also my experience).
And that's what I'm experiencing...I have a feeling the sheets we were given to lay, we're noon treated. Whether that is the purchasers fault or the fault of whichever store we bought it from I don't know.
 
How long since you painted it?

And if you want to experiment in an effort to not have to recover, try coating and area with an oil based primer - I like teh BIN products but does not matter and not sure any alkyd paint with a touch of thinner wouldn't be as good - but maybe a 4x4 area where the wood has pulled up and where it has not. Let it dry 24 hours and coat with your floor paint (ROSCO Tough Prime? PPG Break Through? other?) Let that dry probably 3 days - and then see if you can get tape to pull it up. I like a steel caster with some load back and forth across tape to really test it but find a dance student in hard soled shoes to work on it. If you have the time....
 
For my own curiosity what color is the hardboard?
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I've seen the lighter type commonly in the Northeast and have had MUCH more of a peeling problem than the darker type that I've seen more commonly in the South.
 

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