Location of the Control Booth

[Aaron Becker]

another way to get around the issue is to go to wireless or either-net control Qlab will fire audio, video and lighting from anywhere, so your boards can be backstage, but you ops are FOH sitting in a chair with an iPad. An Ipad will run ETC Eos boards or Nomad wirelessly. You don't even have to have a board - you can run just with Nomad on a laptop with a Gadget II

I vote for wires. Even if they're temporary. A 20 dollar cable is almost as good as the world's most expensive wireless system.

 

[Paul Hannah]

the op may be able to see the show, but the op won't "hear" the show in a room through a window. The biggest problem with sound is hearing what the audience hears and that can't happen if the operator is in a booth.

If I go this route I will remove a section of wall between the foyer and the house - make it like a stage flat. For the OP it will be like s/he is sitting in a seat behind the back row.

 

[Paul Hannah]

I vote for wires. Even if they're temporary. A 20 dollar cable is almost as good as the world's most expensive wireless system.

Yeah, the building is accessible underneath, so I can run wires from anywhere to anywhere and as you say Cat5 is cheap.

 

[gafftaper]

another way to get around the issue is to go to wireless or either-net control Qlab will fire audio, video and lighting from anywhere, so your boards can be backstage, but you ops are FOH sitting in a chair with an iPad. An Ipad will run ETC Eos boards or Nomad wirelessly. You don't even have to have a board - you can run just with Nomad on a laptop with a Gadget II

Yeah you "COULD" do it that way, but it will slow down the technicians and limit what they can do. Regardless of what the promotional materials say, it's not the same as having the full lighting or sound console in front of you. It can be done, but once again I bet it's less than 5 years before someone starts cursing the theater designer and figures out a way to put the console in the house.

Yes there are times that it's the only option, but it's very undesirable and someone will find a way to make it work, so it's much better to plan for that option now.

 

[mikefellh]

I also want to point out that just as it's impossible to properly mix audio in a closet. You can run lights via a camera from another room, but you can't design that way cameras are not the same as eyes. My guess is if you put the booth backstage it'll be great for a the first show but people will change their minds, want to experiment and you'll find that 5 years from now they have figured out some crazy way to put the booth where it should be.

My setup is an open booth over the audience (see attachment), and while we have a separate amp in the booth that is set for the same volume level as the auditorium speakers, it makes a difference depending on how many people are in the audience soaking up the sound, so many times we have to lean over the booth to hear what the audience is hearing.

Theater techs are not robots. They are creative people who work in the moment with the show, and feel the show from the audience's point of view. Putting the real people backstage drastically limits their abilities and makes the show feel mechanical and canned.

Especially if they are not trained pros...if it's a school/community auditorium where there is a lot of turnover of volunteers year to year, they may not feel comfortable or be able to judge without seeing/hearing for themselves!

p.s. Regarding the attachment, it's not always so full of projectors, and certainly not slide projectors anymore...but the digital projector makes enough noise that it's best to lean over the edge to hear what the audience is hearing.

 

[EkkoJohnny]

One thing to consider, Paul, is nothing will ever replace the human eye, the human response, the human connection to a show or live band. Tech kicks ass, and the above posts are incredibly wise, but I didn't read much about the crap-happens factor, an unforgiving constant in live A/V production. You can have the best software available, but it will never replace the human connection between a board and the stage. If you have options, you're a lucky man, and you wouldn't be the first to have a broom closet for a booth.

Speaking from an older guy’s perspective, we didn’t have ‘all that stuff’ back then, referring to video screens and go-button, programmed lights, and as it moved in - and as fricking awesome as it was - we found ourselves facing every direction but the stage. No kidding sometimes the street. As younger guys came into the field, they brought incredible energy, but the human connection began to dwindle and hiccups in shows shot through the roof, not because techs didn’t care, but because it became the norm to accept the limits of software.

Is it cheaper to build a catwalk in the ceiling? Is there a hollow pillar towards the back? Any space in the left or right corner? I’ve designed many a house and always found a way to keep tech in the room. Are 16 more seats worth the cost of a killer show?

We love A/V or we wouldn’t do it, and I don’t think I know any grunts who run A/V for the glamor, though some have lifestyles I’d give my left nut for, but - the conditions are what they are. You make it work, and you focus on providing a mother-bleeping killer show. The best shows, including those with high-end booths, happen when your tech has the human connection. Sometimes that means an unorthodox booth location. As long as your tech is on board with your vision, your crew will collectively jump through hoops to make it work.

So there's my old-ass reply.
BIG kudos for what you’re doing. (I'm kinda jealous)

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

This is all interesting. I was meeting with a client tonight - about 20 members of a comunity theatre spenfing $1m+ on a 120 seat thheatre, and this was a topic. I shared with them many thoughts from this and other threads.

(FWIW added a room over concession/tickets/coats/lobby storage for control. Undecided on how much open and how much behind glass - no live sound mix ever considered - but this was thread was useful so thanks to all who contributed!)

 

[Ben Stiegler]

I’ve mixed some pretty hairy shows and festivals on wireless with Mackie Dl32R or it’s cousins ... usually have 2 or 3 iPads FOH, plus sfx playback pc and 1 more laptop for wireless mic remote mgmt. works nicely indoors with most any WAP .. when you get to larger events or outdoors where thousands of people have WiFi enabled on their phones by default, it can become problematic. Sometimes the easy solution is to run 1 Ethernet cable to the event foh position, and have the WAP right next to the iPads and laptops. = skinny and inexpensive snake.

 

[pbansen]

A 20 dollar cable is almost as good as the world's most expensive wireless system.

I think you have that backwards!

 

[FMEng]

Yeah. I think I can position a rehearsal light/sound board in the foyer or even the in the Box office with a drop down wall section so the op can see and hear the stage directly.

Listening and mixing in a separate room from the audience is seldom good. An aperture, such as a window colors what you hear considerably, and the acoustics of small rooms are usually horrible. I've done it in such places and survived, but it wasn't good. If you don't believe me, go to any booth with a small, open window. Play some music through the system, and listen while sticking your head in and out the window.

Lighting in a small booth works fine as long as long as you can see the stage adequately.

At the very least, plan for the FOH booth and put the conduits in so you can easily change it when the experiment fails.

 

[mikefellh]

Listening and mixing in a separate room from the audience is seldom good. An aperture, such as a window colors what you hear considerably, and the acoustics of small rooms are usually horrible. I've done it in such places and survived, but it wasn't good. If you don't believe me, go to any booth with a small, open window. Play some music through the system, and listen while sticking your head in and out the window.

Not just a small window...our booth has a 15 feet x 3 feet opening, and even though I have small speakers that are set for the same volume level as the auditorium speakers, there are times that we have to lean over the edge of the opening so we hear exactly what the audience hears.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Reminder: if you try to use video there, it will need to be NTSC analog.

HD/digital monitors will have at least 1 and sometimes as much as 3 or 4 frames of delay inside the monitor, and that 16-64ms will kill you.

 

[EdSavoie]

Most monitors I've seen that aren't cheap crap these days are below 8ms if I'm not mistaken, with 1ms being not terribly expensive.

Additionally, at 60Hz, there's an inherent 16ms delay between frames.

Can't really comment on the camera though, I've not really any knowledge on the processing delays caused by that...

 

[ruinexplorer]

Most monitors I've seen that aren't cheap crap these days are below 8ms if I'm not mistaken, with 1ms being not terribly expensive.

Additionally, at 60Hz, there's an inherent 16ms delay between frames.

Can't really comment on the camera though, I've not really any knowledge on the processing delays caused by that...

Latency is an additive issue. Each component will add some processing of the signal and increase the total time to show the image. Manufacturers can legally say that something has "no latency" as long as it adds no more that 10ms. Make sure to do your homework and let the components do as little thinking as possible.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

To be clear about it: Analog monitors sync the scanning beam to the incoming analog signal, and hence have effectively no latency (microseconds, maybe).

LCD/LED monitors *paint the panel in progressive mode*, a frame at a time, so they're guaranteed to be at least one frame late even with a progressive signal, and probably a minimum of 2 frames late with an interlaced signal -- they have to assemble an entire frame in buffer, before they can clock it out to the panel for display. Depending on the processor speed, and how that clock-out is done, add maybe another frame of buffering -- nobody ever told those design engineers that frame-latency was a critical design parameter.

 

[Buttmonkey]

I am designing a new theatre in an old building and I am thinking about control booth location.
If I go the traditional route and put it behind the audience, it will be small, low ceilinged and impossible to access for the less well abled users. If I put it backstage with two redundant video and audio feeds, it will be large, adaptable, comfortable and accessible. It will also give me 16 more seats in a 100 seat theatre.

What do you think? Is locating it backstage a brave move too far?

Ik I'm just a buttmonkey, but trying to do lighting and sound from backstage could be a disaster, cameras have a delay to them, audio sounds backstage sound way different than in the house. Your sound engineer needs to be where your audience is to give the best sound. Same goes for lighting unless it's super simple stuff.

 

[Ben Stiegler]

My setup is an open booth over the audience (see attachment), and while we have a separate amp in the booth that is set for the same volume level as the auditorium speakers, it makes a difference depending on how many people are in the audience soaking up the sound, so many times we have to lean over the booth to hear what the audience is hearing.


Especially if they are not trained pros...if it's a school/community auditorium where there is a lot of turnover of volunteers year to year, they may not feel comfortable or be able to judge without seeing/hearing for themselves!

p.s. Regarding the attachment, it's not always so full of projectors, and certainly not slide projectors anymore...but the digital projector makes enough noise that it's best to lean over the edge to hear what the audience is hearing.

Have you thought about making a projector blimp, with baffled air ducts?

 

[Ben Stiegler]

Also wondering why it costs 16 seats? If all you need are your control surfaces and input devices at hand, could you do it in 6 or 8 seats? Is there a follow spot eating up space? How many humans do you need in the booth?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

B-way was 21 seats for sound - 3 rows, 7 seats. 16 is probably 2 rows at 8 seats or 6 X 13 feet.

If you can split lights and sound - - depending on how designed and cued the lighting is versus the busking - you might put lights backstage and sound in less space in house. I guess I would also wonder if in 100 seats you are reinforcing or just playing effects. (Return to discussion on performers today can't project for crap)

It was all back stage for years on B'way so be done.

 

[Ben Stiegler]

Even last year, I mixed a congressional town hall meeting with John Dean (Nixon's white house counsel) from a cursed backstage location because that's where some genius decided the high school mixing console should be. But geez - mixing blind, and half-deaf behind the traveler curtain. No headphones available to listen for edge of feedback. And yes, piano (light) boards backstage. But ... less was expected of us back then. Even if you have to knock out a bathroom stall or something, please make yourself a booth space, and equip for your A1 to be able to mix via tablet from true FOH when needed - like when you rent out to a cabaret nite fundraiser show, for example.