Loudspeakers Speakon jack - is it amped or not

[Craig Hauber]

any sound system will sound better with a skilled operator than without one. i don't think anyone here believes otherwise, or is arguing otherwise. if you read back, i don't think you'll find that i did.



no, i do not look at the name brand first and assume it's going to suck.

i take my 28 years/500+ shows of experience and i apply some analysis to them. i have never, personally, been pleased with the results of a bose sound system. i'm not assuming anything, i'm referring to my experience.

Was pushing back against the "speaker snob" aspect - I encounter too many people almost daily that look around the huge "elephant in the room" and focus all their waste of dollars on the PA speakers and not correcting greater issues first.

Finding a proper spot to jump into this thread without making it look like a personal attack was wrong and my mistake -sorry.

Been dealing mostly with organizations and institutional clients blaming the "hardware" instead of the real issues such as proper staffing (and better acoustics -which is a whole other topic on its own).
They waste enough money that it seriously hampers the scope of their primary purpose -often buying way overkill stuff because of something they heard on the internet! And sadly that "way overkill stuff"still gets installed insufficiently and they end up in the same place they were before (but without the funds remaining to even attempt mitigating properly)

So forgive me if I was "triggered" -most of my post was towards our industry as a whole and mostly tongue-in-cheek but definitely looked personal when I stepped back and re-read.

probably because there was a problem with some part of the house system. something misconfigured, something broken, something unpatched, etc.

Yes there definitely was -and at no fault of the manufacturers. But you know how many people I've had to work with that would forever say "brand 'xyz' sucks" because of something like that. (Yes they probably have pre-bias on that and they use it as confirmation.)
I think that's the basis of most tech riders!

i don't think the subzero temperatures are really relevant, but maybe i'm missing something.

Trying to express how much I really, really, tried to make the house system work before having to interrupt soundcheck to find where the bus ended up and lugging our crap into the venue during weather conditions bad enough to make me want to actually tolerate some amount of inadequacies in the house PA. (And it was sad because I actually wanted to mix on that Fulcrum rig)

i mean, that all sounds reasonable to me! but also, it sounds like you have a lot of considerations here which are unrelated to sound quality. which is real and true and i'm not objecting at all. but i was talking about sound quality, not overall suitability for packing as an emergency P.A.

my point is, and has always been, than in an apples-to-apples comparison between, say, a bose 802 and a d&b Y10, i think the d&b sounds dramatically better. and i also think that in a non-comparison situation, where the question is "do you like how an 802 sounds when properly configured and operated by someone with skill?" my answer is, "no i do not."

I do have a hard time separating practical considerations from raw "sound quality" nowadays if it carries easily it upgrades it's sound quality in my mind! -lol
For me the "best sound" would fall more into the large studio monitor category and not PA at all.
But within the working PA category, many things I don't consider my absolute "favorite" still have surprising moments when "wow I've never heard that interesting thing before, let's replay that" And every now and then the 802 throws that out at me.

And comparing a Bose 802 to a Y10 is NOT an "apples to apples" comparison. That's more like comparing a 1985 F-150 to a brand new Escalade. In their day (early to mid 80's) I still personally believe the 802 was the best-sounding option for the dollar when compared to the other gear choices offered to gigging musicians, smaller theater and organizations like that. Peavey SP-series, JBL Cabaret and various music-store Tolex-covered columns or even Radio Shack were the choices people had at that level.
(No disrespect to old F-150's or any of that gear -well maybe the radio shack stuff -I do draw the line at piezo tweeters!)

i know about the processor. they definitely sound terrible without the processor. and i think, in my subjective opinion which belongs only to me, is that they sound pretty terrible even with the processor.

You would probably not realize how many people didn't and don't -and that was a major downfall of that speaker
I guess we all hear different. I don't mind them one bit and still think they sound smoother than most PPS (Plastic Powered Speakers) I encounter on the low-end these days. And low-end is what the artists usually end up with, or local community theater, church, school etc.. also seem to buy too often. But personally they sit right in the middle of my preferences for sq for PA speakers. Not too thin and not to scratchy with a pleasing vocal range that is very consistent in wide-coverage applications. Overall SPL is not as high as most products but for lav or earset mixes you usually hit your feedback ceiling long before you run out of PA headroom.
But for practicality there's not much else in it's size range, comes with a built-in roadcase, tolerates a fair amount of abuse and can be left out in the rain without worry (probably the number-1 reason I still have them in inventory)

If you do happen to come across a set of 802's that really sound bad just pull the grill and see if the surrounds have disintegrated They existed for one series before going to cloth -same goes for the home audio 901. There's nothing you can do short of reconing every one and for that cost there are definitely better products you can spend that amount on. 802's were finally discontinued a few years ago and they no longer stock the replacement driver. There's foam surround equivalents on parts express but they just don't sound the same (not bad, but don't play as loud)
In a few more years you probably won't encounter many 802, 402, or 502's anyways so most of this post is a moot point.

so... you agree with me?

Yes, definitely no "bluetooth speakers" like that popular S1 all-in-one PA box that keeps showing up at small productions. Or the all-in-one column device intended for jazz ensembles at a wine-tasting.
But their "pro" products like the wood coax-loaded install "utility boxes" are on par with anything else in that size and class, and I'll argue the dual-8 line-array box is the same. Likewise their installed columns aren't that much different than everyone else's similar looking installed-grade column products. For commercial installation their newer plastic surface-mount 70V stuff actually sounds better to me out-of-the box than equivalent JBL or EV. It is a bit pricier so I would expect that -and their smaller 210 subs work very well for their size and cost. They have gotten away from the single small full range driver concept. Worth a look if you are also in that end of our industry -I consider it a useful addition to my palette of tools for those type of projects.

Of course with everything there's a caveat, that bluetooth model I referred to actually works really good for a solo performer busking on a sidewalk under battery power - and I've heard a jazz trio sounding stunning with just a single column right behind them at a coffee house.

i work mostly in environments with no house inventory. i mostly have to rent everything. when i work at a theater with house gear, i assess what i have and what my budget is, and make a judgement call. maybe the theater has 802s for mains, a mackie 1202 for a console, and a 1/4" open reel tape deck for playback. in that case, i'll spend my budget on a QLab mac, thank you very much.

I do a lot of work providing for such venues and sound designers. You seem to have an awareness of priorities that so many I encounter simply don't. I know clients that would want to change the speakers first in that situation.
(On an aside, the used prices on open-reel for the analog-obsessed audiophiles are so high now you could probably sell that thing and fully pay for the new Mac+Qlab -lol)

i don't know anyone who does this. i certainly don't do this.

Certainly can't image a professional participant in this forum like you doing that, but you must have had encounters with clientele or production staff that think that way? It's not like they come right out and say it, but it is a general fallback that always happens when rehearsals and opening nights don't go well. Maybe it's "the wireless", or the "console" or other system system hardware.
But it's never the "you didn't want to hire the experienced theater sound tech I recommended and instead went with someone who stage managed or ran the lights in previous shows and has 12 years of theater experience so they must know sound too!"
-And couldn't afford the guy I recommended because they ran out and dropped $12k on new speakers when the bose 802's in the 250-seat room weren't adequate for sound effects playback because someone on the internet said they sucked!
I know there's a lot of 'cinematic license' in my above scenario but there's been enough similar experiences to this personally over the years.


As for the original post which I swerved all this from, always verify installed speakons. I actually found some a while back that were carrying 12VDC to run automotive off-road LED light-bars they used for stage lighting. Ingenious, but I think they sourced the wrong connector off amazon instead of the powercon they probably were intending (not that it's any better for that type of application either)

 

[Sam Kusnetz]

Was pushing back against the "speaker snob" aspect - I encounter too many people almost daily that look around the huge "elephant in the room" and focus all their waste of dollars on the PA speakers and not correcting greater issues first.

Finding a proper spot to jump into this thread without making it look like a personal attack was wrong and my mistake -sorry.

hey, no problem! i understand where you're coming from, and i now see your post in this light.

it certainly sounds like you have a lot of frustrating interactions... i'm sorry to hear it!

And comparing a Bose 802 to a Y10 is NOT an "apples to apples" comparison. That's more like comparing a 1985 F-150 to a brand new Escalade.

yeah, i should have phrased it differently. what i meant by "apples to apples" was that it felt a little like you were saying "if you set up bose 802s correctly, and set up a meyer leo array poorly, the bose sounds better!"

and i was like, well yes, surely. but it's only reasonable to talk about which sounds better if you set up both correctly.

In their day (early to mid 80's) I still personally believe the 802 was the best-sounding option for the dollar when compared to the other gear choices offered to gigging musicians, smaller theater and organizations like that. Peavey SP-series, JBL Cabaret and various music-store Tolex-covered columns or even Radio Shack were the choices people had at that level.

to me, that is a long list of speakers that all sound terrible. if we're venturing back to the early to mid 80s and looking for speakers that sound good, let's talk about apogees.

i know about the processor. they definitely sound terrible without the processor. and i think, in my subjective opinion which belongs only to me, is that they sound pretty terrible even with the processor.

You would probably not realize how many people didn't and don't -and that was a major downfall of that speaker

to me that's just a different form of design flaw. if you build a speaker that absolutely must use its special processor to sound good, and you fail to make that fact suitably known, you've just found the most complicated possible way to build a bad speaker. referring again to apogee, most of their speakers needed a processor, and that seemed to be a pretty well-known fact.

I guess we all hear different. I don't mind them one bit and still think they sound smoother than most PPS (Plastic Powered Speakers) I encounter on the low-end these days. And low-end is what the artists usually end up with, or local community theater, church, school etc.. also seem to buy too often.

i think that's a reasonable argument. i think the QSC K series is very good in the plastic powered speaker department, but also pricier than the others.

i think some of the JBL EONs are about the worst things i've ever heard.

If you do happen to come across a set of 802's that really sound bad just pull the grill and see if the surrounds have disintegrated

if i come across any 802s at all, i'll send them to you! it sounds like you genuinely have good use for them and know how to make them work for you, and that is such a important and valuable thing.

(On an aside, the used prices on open-reel for the analog-obsessed audiophiles are so high now you could probably sell that thing and fully pay for the new Mac+Qlab -lol)

i mean i love open reel. my first designs were on open reel. my mom, who is no longer with us, was a sound editor for cinema and i have her splicing block on my desk. i would never get rid of an open reel player, but i would also never use one for playback in a theater

Certainly can't image a professional participant in this forum like you doing that, but you must have had encounters with clientele or production staff that think that way? It's not like they come right out and say it, but it is a general fallback that always happens when rehearsals and opening nights don't go well. Maybe it's "the wireless", or the "console" or other system system hardware.

i do, and i have come to a place in my life where my response to that is to say, without getting excited, "i'm sorry, that's not the case here." and they can choose to listen to me or not.

But it's never the "you didn't want to hire the experienced theater sound tech I recommended and instead went with someone who stage managed or ran the lights in previous shows and has 12 years of theater experience so they must know sound too!"

that sounds incredibly frustrating!

it seems like you're out there trying to do good sound work and getting blocked by a lot of nonsense, and i really feel for you. i hope you're able to claw your way over it most of the time.

 

[Craig Hauber]

hey, no problem! i understand where you're coming from, and i now see your post in this light.

it certainly sounds like you have a lot of frustrating interactions... i'm sorry to hear it!



yeah, i should have phrased it differently. what i meant by "apples to apples" was that it felt a little like you were saying "if you set up bose 802s correctly, and set up a meyer leo array poorly, the bose sounds better!"

and i was like, well yes, surely. but it's only reasonable to talk about which sounds better if you set up both correctly.



to me, that is a long list of speakers that all sound terrible. if we're venturing back to the early to mid 80s and looking for speakers that sound good, let's talk about apogees.




to me that's just a different form of design flaw. if you build a speaker that absolutely must use its special processor to sound good, and you fail to make that fact suitably known, you've just found the most complicated possible way to build a bad speaker. referring again to apogee, most of their speakers needed a processor, and that seemed to be a pretty well-known fact.



i think that's a reasonable argument. i think the QSC K series is very good in the plastic powered speaker department, but also pricier than the others.

i think some of the JBL EONs are about the worst things i've ever heard.



if i come across any 802s at all, i'll send them to you! it sounds like you genuinely have good use for them and know how to make them work for you, and that is such a important and valuable thing.



i mean i love open reel. my first designs were on open reel. my mom, who is no longer with us, was a sound editor for cinema and i have her splicing block on my desk. i would never get rid of an open reel player, but i would also never use one for playback in a theater



i do, and i have come to a place in my life where my response to that is to say, without getting excited, "i'm sorry, that's not the case here." and they can choose to listen to me or not.



that sounds incredibly frustrating!

it seems like you're out there trying to do good sound work and getting blocked by a lot of nonsense, and i really feel for you. i hope you're able to claw your way over it most of the time.

No more Bose 802's for me, I have plenty enough of them and actually do have far better products for things that are not throw-and-go grist.
If you are dumpstering any then at least just check the drivers before you toss and I could always use spares of those. They used that 4.5" in many products of that era and I still have enough service work to justify retaining good ones as spares. (and I am sure there are others across the country needing them as well now that they are discontinued)
I still do have nostalgia memories of what I lusted over as a young guy doing PA-in-a-van work. I remember wanting original Meyer UPA's and the Apogee AE3's and eventually ended up with a deltamax rig -but not before suffering through countless Peavey, Traynor, Shure and Fender speaker setups and all the homemade w-bins and Clair-clones type stuff that was sourced from classified ads.

But I won't meander further down memory lane here, this thread has swerved far enough afield that anything further should be taken to DM's

Thanks again!