Flying FX... (NOT a how-to question!)

[TupeloTechie]

I would like to start off saying that this is not a thread about how to fly humans. I am writing this because of some of the experiences I have had in the few years of theatrical experience I have had. I do not want to discuss the rigging of flying effects or any other topic on CB's TOS. However with that being said If this thread does happen to violate some rule please delete it or edit as needed.

On with the show...

I have only been doing theatre for about 6 years but in those 6 years I have experienced 2 different times when I have been involved with a production that involved the flying of a human. In both instances they were small local community theatres and in both instances no official rigging company was called in. In both cases nobody got injured, however also in both cases the rigging used to fly the said human was not anywhere close to the way that I have seen ZFX fly in a workshop that they gave. While I understand that there are probably multiple ways to rig the tackle for this type of effect I just don't know if they really did it safely, I didn't touch it.

My point being is that:
A: Community Theatres will fly people without calling in a professional because usually the price of a professional (from what I've heard, at the low end being $4K-5K, as apposed to the $400-500 of buying the (probably not right) equipment) is the entire budget or more for their show.
B: Because of the danger and liability of the explanation of flying someone is so great there is not really any way to "learn" how to fly someone safely, the answer to the question of flight is always "hire a professional." Even in most books they won't explain the how-to, the only one I can find that explains it is Gillette's Stage Scenery .
C: Because of the stubbornness in both points A and B we end up with unsafe practices in the community theatre level.

I'm not versed in the practices of law, so I have no idea about the legal matters of explanation, but isn't there some way to release liability so that someone can explain the safe way to fly a human? Because just saying "hire a professional" doesn't seem to work, and while I would never do It, I just think that it would be somewhat better for these places to at least do it the proper way instead of using parts from the home depot.

Any Discussion on this? Also this whole point also deals with pyro, however these places usually have to get past the fire marshal for these, so there isn't as much of a danger.

 

[soundlight]

Basically off limits. Hire a professional is the ONLY advice that I will give on this topic, because it deals DIRECTLY with someone's life. There's a reason it costs so much. The people who are in the flying business use only the best equipment that has been tested properly and they have been trained properly. There is NO substitute for a flying company.

 

[TupeloTechie]

please note that I am not asking for anyone on the booth to give such advice

and while there is no substitute for a flying company believe it or not people still do substitute

 

[soundlight]

The thing is that everyone who has the knowledge knows that if they release it, and someone screws up and drops someone, it can come back to them and their methods.

 

[Footer]

Like most rigging or special FX, it is not learned through a book, because the books don't exist that spells everything out for you. Yes, there is information in the books that help you, especially in designing a safe system. This is something that if you want to learn how to do it, you need to go work for the companies that do it. Cirque, ZFX, and Foy are just a handful of places that do this. Even the largest broadway shows, both touring and install brin in Foy or ZFX to do their rigs. If you want to learn it, go to them to learn it. Both companies do sell "turnkey" systems and provide a ton of training on how to safetly use their systems. The theatre I am currently working for has two Foy trained people on staff, and we own 2 foy flying systems that are sitting in a warehouse that go out on the shows they were purchased for.

 

[gafftaper]

Just to add one other point to the discussion. If Foy and ZFX made the information available they would be out of business.

It would be interesting to hear what "Whatrigger?" has to say on the topic since he flies people on a daily basis... I'll PM him and point this thread out.

Hey Rigger there's such a catch 22 of how you get trained to fly people when it's too dangerous to train people how to do it... Care to comment on how you got trained to fly people?

On the problem of schools and community theaters taking terrible risks and flying people without knowing what they are doing... If people like you shared "the secrets" would it make it safer or even more dangerous?

 

[What Rigger?]

Wow...this is a great one. Okay, see my comments/replies in uhm...let's see now...Red.

Just to add one other point to the discussion. If Foy and ZFX made the information available they would be out of business. Foy, ZFX, Hall Associates, Branam, FTSI, and the like mostly don't put the info in writing for liability issues. Imagine if some doofus got "The Manual by Hall Associates"(I'm making that title up) and misread the instructions and kills somebody. Guess who's going to jail besides the doofus? Guess who's going out of business? .

It would be interesting to hear what "Whatrigger?" has to say on the topic since he flies people on a daily basis... I'll PM him and point this thread out.

Hey Rigger there's such a catch 22 of how you get trained to fly people when it's too dangerous to train people how to do it... Care to comment on how you got trained to fly people? There is a Catch 22, it's true. Here's how I did it: children's theater (shudder). In my early 20's (when the earth was still flat), I worked for a children's rep company that did Oz and Peter Pan every 16 months or so. Got to know a guy on the Foy crew. We kept in touch, but it was actually EIGHT YEARS AFTER our initial meeting that I hit him up for a gig. Times and companies had changed, so I never worked for Foy- but instead another party which shall remain nameless. So previous experience as a client, where I was well trained, led me in the door of Flying Company X, where again I was MORE fully trained on all the different systems, factors involved in flying, etc...then a couple years later I got tired of being on the road, etc...and got a flying job at a fixed location. But that's another rant entirely. Point being, getting into flying people/things is like getting into the business period: it's timing, connections, and HUSTLE HUSTLE HUSTLE. If you want it badly enough, you WILL find the way.

But if you haven't been trained, don't try it. People WILL die, and YOU WILL GO TO PRISON WHEN (not "IF") YOU F*CK IT UP! Don't believe me? I refer you then to the Great White/Station nightclub fire.

On the problem of schools and community theaters taking terrible risks and flying people without knowing what they are doing... If people like you shared "the secrets" would it make it safer or even more dangerous?It would be MORE dangerous because you're sharing info with people who don't have the mindset to respect the knowledge and what it can do, both good and bad. Ego gets in the way, and then you have some dad who thinks he knows better because he's a volunteer stagehand and full time drywaller and death follows quickly.
There are no "secrets", there is only PHYSICS. You think math is pointless in high school, right? WRONG! I friggin' LOVE geometry, calculus, etc...nowadays. It makes me look like a wizard to most folks. Flying and rigging is not a destination, it is a journey. The education and training NEVER stop. You NEVER learn it all, and there is always somebody who knows more/better/different than you. You are a servant of the harshest mistress: GRAVITY. Humble yourself before her, and try to be like that dude on Kung Fu, sort of the 'warrior poet' if you will. (Yes, England forever. Scotland a wee bit longer.) The real knowledge one needs to do this is guarded jealously by us because YOU must prove your worth, and that you are dedicated to the path. We're not gonna roll up and drop it all in your lap because after all, it's not like we're changing the alternator on your truck here. We're hanging people and things in the air and death is a real consideration to all involved. Any community theater/high school theater SCHMUCK who thinks that they know enough to do it 'on the cheap' or 'on the sly' is just an arrogant b@stard willing to take a chance with YOUR LIFE first- before his! These people know NOTHING and you must run, not walk, away from them. Consider this also: most flying in America, in terms of the actors, is done by children/young people. When you go to Home Depot to buy your sh*tty, Chinese made wire rope, shackles and pulleys, you are gambling with THE LIFE OF AN INNOCENT CHILD.

There is a reason when I walk in your door to rig your system, the first thing you MUST provide me with is a $1,000,000 insurance policy and liability waivers for all involved. There is a reason I come at a rate of $500/day plus expenses and per diem. It's called "safety, quality, and experience". Also? I am a red-hot aerial choreographer, and you ain't. Your flying looks like crap without me. Arrogant? No, 'cause I can back it up. But enough of my ego: let's not fool ourselves, because in a lot of states, the waivers don't mean s#!t, and if you screw up, the lawsuits are gonna happen anyway. Are you, as a novice, ready to go to court? Do you have the resources (aka "MONEY!!!") to defend yourself and your organization? As a client, it's not 'too dangerous' to teach local crew how to operate and inspect a system. Did it all the time, and the best crews were usually the high school crews, followed closely by the IATSE crews. You will be taught well, but you won't in most cases be given enough info to be dangerous. Even Peter Foy's guys screwed it up sometimes. Here's from his obit in the LA Times:
In a risky business, his flubs were astonishingly few. One time, the flamboyant Liberace was dragged instead of flown offstage when an inept technician was at the controls. On another occasion, Foy’s assistant was so mesmerized by the sight of Peter Pan in flight that he forgot what he was doing and sailed Martin right into a brick wall.

Martin wound up with a broken arm but returned to the set the same day.


Oh god, where was I? Lemme catch me breath...

I'm not tryin' to scare anybody off. Call me an idiot or any other name you want, I've heard 'em all. But in 6 years of doing flights full-time, I HAVE ZERO INJURIES to cast or crew. So bring it. If anyone wants more info on how to get into flying, feel free to PM me.

((whew...puff, puff, pant, pant))

Here endeth the rant.

 

[gafftaper]

Thanks Rigger, let me ask you this follow up since you are the expert... If one of our young friends wanted to get into flying the first step would be to become a really good rigger. So how would you recommend they set them self up for a career in rigging?

I'll start to answer my own question with links to the resources I know of:
1) Jay Glerum, Harry Donovan, and/or Bill Sapsis host traveling seminars. 4 days and It'll set you back $1000.
2) [URL='http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0809327414"]Jay Glerum's[/URL] Book
3) Harry Donnovan's Book. Much more expensive than Glerum's but worth it as they compliment each other. Think of this as the advanced book.

 

[Hughesie]

Delegation goes down, responsibility goes up

It's not my fault i killed him, i was just following orders

remember kids all rigging topics on cb are created in a hypothetical manor and not for how to guides for rigging, electricity and ground lifts are dangerous things and you might kill yourself but with rigging mistakes other people die not you. so don't do it

 

[gafftaper]

remember kids all rigging topics on cb are created in a hypothetical manor and not for how to guides for rigging, electricity and ground lifts are dangerous things and you might kill yourself but with rigging mistakes other people die not you. so don't do it

Don't forget there are lot's of ways to kill yourself too with bad rigging. For example a poorly loaded arbor in a runaway could cause stage weights to rain down on your head or you could launch yourself into the loading bridge.

There are so many ways to die in theater...

 

[Footer]

rigging mistakes other people die not you. so don't do it

I'll disagree with that one, you try sitting on a beam all day with a harness on and pulling up baskets that weigh 30#. There is a reason you get hazard pay while rigging.

 

[Hughesie]

Fine,

Rigging that is done for a show related nature such as flying people can hurt others, but footer those baskets can also hurt people IF YOU drop one

 

[What Rigger?]

Gaff! Sorry for the delay. Rigging flights on tall ships is killing me this week. Arrrrgh! like a pirate.
Once again, me in RED

Thanks Rigger, let me ask you this follow up since you are the expert... If one of our young friends wanted to get into flying the first step would be to become a really good rigger. Not necessarily. When hired by Flying Company X, I had no formal rigging training and the mindset was "you follow these steps EVERY time and you'll be fine". So how would you recommend they set them self up for a career in rigging? If not through a flying company, then Google local rigging companies (fact: in LA there is a company called "Icarus Rigging". IMHO, worst name ever for a rigging company) and see if you can intern/be the shop b*tch, or contact your local IATSE hall and get on the list, and turn down NOTHING. Some locals are better than others on training. You might be able to take a class or two and be put on the list. I've seen it happen.

I'll start to answer my own question with links to the resources I know of:
1) Jay Glerum, Harry Donovan, and/or Bill Sapsis host traveling seminars. 4 days and It'll set you back $1000. Hail Jay, Harry, Bill and Rocky Paulson. Keep in mind though, that even these EXCELLENT seminars have NO hands on component, and you WON'T be going up 100 ft. That comes on the job, usually at your local arena.
2) [URL='http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0809327414"]Jay Glerum's[/URL] Book EVERYone should have Jay's book. I carry it at all times because...
3) Harry Donnovan's Book. Much more expensive than Glerum's but worth it as they compliment each other. Think of this as the advanced book.

I can NOT carry THIS book everywhere all the time. Although I hear if you can memorize Harry's book you MIGHT pass the ESTA exam. Might.

The thing with rigging is this: all the books in the world don't mean richard if you don't go out and learn to apply it in the real world. Books don't make you a good climber or let you practice balancing on an i-beam 100ft up with no handrail and 60lbs of chain whipping beneath you. So seek those who know, and like I said before, if you're sincere about this, eventually the knowledge will come to you, you'll go home alive, and none of your sh*t will ever come down until you go back up to send it in.

And just to belabor a point: if the lighting is bad, people are green. If the rigging is bad, people are dead. Yes?

Again, anybody interested in this field, please feel free to PM me and I'll probably bore you to tears.

Rock and/or roll!