Mixers/Consoles Recording live on location

My name is Reggie Hogan, I live north of Atlanta (Acworth, Ga) I'm looking for some advice on capturing live video and audio feeds. What is the best way of capturing live sound. What type of feed and what media type are best. What type of rig should be used ie Protools, Dat, ADAT? Live music recording production from within a large venue is what I'm referring to mainly. How would a protools rig be setup in a situation like this, recording using 20 to 28 live channels. (vocals and instruments)

Biggest question to ask is: what is your budget?

Many amateur and intermediary engineers will record their mix live either directly from the board (matrix or auxiliaries) or split their signals to a dedicated console and processing straight to ADAT/CD/Mini-Disc. This is how it's been done for years and many still do it that way.

With advent of the computer and its portability, more and more engineers are no longer recording with linear-systems (mix to source) and instead using DAW (digital audio work stations) + hard drive systems.

The DAW method is great for live because it cuts down on gear (computer + interface vs. console + processing for almost every channel) and you don't need dedicated engineer/tech for it. With a DAW setup, you can get away with as little as laptop and a small rack with your interfaces and some optional simple analog processing (comp/gate/limiters) for the overly-dynamic audio sources (kick, snare, poorly mixed video feed, etc) that won't play nicely with your interface's preamp. The processing isn't always needed, but if you're recording a live event and a sources clips your preamp, there's no going back. Ever hear that saying "garbage in garbage out?"

Also, with a DAW, you can mix and remix your recording to your heart's content. Mixing through a DAW gives you a much wider range of processing and effects options for practically little to no cost because it's software (ie: cheaper to produce software effect than to produce a physical unit, ship it, stock it, sell it, etc).

I'm not totally sure what you're asking, so I'll keep it short and sweet. Add in details in your reply.

Capturing live audio?
A few room mics to capture room ambience and audience. Ideally, you'll want a snake splitter and feed all the sources in their native state to your DAW rig's interfaces/preamps. If you're short on inputs/processing, you can have the FOH console feed you the grouped-sources (drums in one feed, guitars in one feed, bass in one feed, etc) via subgroups/auxiliaries/matrices/direct-sends. If the FOH live rig is not capturing or mixing their audio great for whatever the reason, you can always bypass it and feed your DAW rig with your own mics. This can get enormously complicated and can create a lot of clutter.

Capturing video?
Take a feed from the video source. Be sure to have a direct box as well as wide variety of adapters and signal converters on hand to be prepared for whatever type of audio feed the video crew will give you. Despite all the advancements in digital broadcasting standards and video, there are still some video crews out there that'll feed you unbalanced signals in form of RCA, 1/4", 1/8", etc. It's almost 2010 and some in the video world are still discovering balanced audio. There are do-it-all kits/interfaces you can buy that are specifically designed for pro-audio professionals to accept audio feeds from video folks.

Basic schematic of a DAW recording rig:
[Computer] ---data cable--- [Audio Interface/Preamp] ---xlr/trs--- [Mic/Source]

You'll want a computer with a modern processor such as a core 2 duo, core i7, or xeon running in the 2ghz range or better. Because of your 21-24 inputs you'll likely be using plethora effects and you'll want to avoid latency issues for mixing/recording, go ahead and stuff the computer with as much ram as it can hold. You'll want ample hard drive storage and then some to back it up. If you're going the laptop route, run your external drives via eSATA.

While I love protools, they're extremely proprietary as a DAW system. Their entry-level/intermediate LE-line is expensive and won't satisfy your input needs. With 21-24 inputs, you'll need HD-line protools hardware and software. The HD-line gear is the among the best and is terribly expensive. I can't justify that being cost effective for live recording system unless you plan on commercially distributing and selling your recordings. An protools HD rig is a serious studio beast that is useful for more advanced live setups (think Rolling Stones).

With that, I'd recommend you consider solutions from one of the core audio-interface manufacturers such as MOTU, PreSonus, Focusrite, Apogee, etc. Apogees stuff is amazing and works beautifully with the Mac + Logic-Pro combo, but it's pricey. I tend to prefer MOTU and PreSonus because they deliver the best bang for the buck. Also, the MOTU and PreSonus gear easily daisy chains to handle larger volume of inputs.

The bare components of my personal rig consists of the following:
-late-2007 model Macbook Pro w/ 2.6ghz Core 2 Duo + 4GB ram
-MOTU 896HD 8-channel 24-bit/192khz Firewire Audio Interface
-Apple's Logic Studio (Logic Pro, Mainstage, Soundtrack Pro, etc)
-Firewire cable

If I were in your position and needed to record 21-24 inputs, I'd pick up two more MOTU 896 interfaces and daisy chain them. This would give the ability to record a total of 24 inputs. Since I'm mostly a studio guy, I don't know about latency issues with recording 24 simultaneous tracks. I usually record no more than 6-8 tracks at a time and I have no problem. However, when I'm mixing down (after I've recorded) 20-30+ tracks with full effects and procesing, my laptop shows it. I'll have to freeze tracks to free up system resources and keep latency to a minimum. You may just benefit from a more powerful desktop if you're going to regularly be recording and mixing down 21-24 live sources with lots of effects because powerful laptops are pricey.

As far as software, use whichever works the best for you. They all work well. Just make sure it's compatible with your interface. Most use something along the lines of "Core Audio" drivers. Some DAW software do things better than others, but it ultimately comes down to personal preference. I use and learned Logic Pro because I was able to receive it for steep discount. I've heard great things about or have had good experiences with the following MOTU's Digital Performer, Reason, Cakewalk, CuBase, Neundo, Sony Acid/Soundforge, Ableton Live, etc

Here is another take on all this:

After dealing with all sorts of PC setups in a live environment and really looking at this area in great detail, my suggestion is the following:

On location I use either a single or for more tracks multiple Alesis HD24 units. These are 24 track Adat or Analog input devices that record to a Hard drive, AND they have an interface (HDPORT) that allows you to transfer the hard drive to your computer system. This allows you to record with a reliable device but the Import and mix down using Protools LE (Le limits the number of tracks that you can RECORD but in LE 8 you can playback 48 tracks Pro Tools 8 Overview

I know a lot of folks that use this to work on a Tools project in expensively and port ably

My suggestion is that basically you record three things on the audio side
One is record a two track mix of the board, two is record a stereo venue mic setup, and also record the individually inputs. ( so with a single HD24 you can record 20 tracks of direct input, and 4 tracks of "mixed"

Again just a suggestion but this gives you IMO the most flexibility
the direct inputs can be via a splitter, or direct outs on the mixer

For video, it depends on what you intend to do with the video. Again after a lot of testing and work in this area, I settled on using a Panasonic DMR EH55 DVD hard drive recorer this is NOT in HD.

For HD recording you could look at a pc solution with a Capture card (you need to check what feed you are getting on the video, the HD options are HDSDI Analog Componant or HDMI. HDMI currently is a pain in that the cables are expensive and tend to be distance limited

I tend to do a live mix, but capture the individual feeds on the for later if I need them (which usually I do not) So for my SD setup
I use a Panasonic MX50 with video splitters feeding 5 Panasonic DMR HD55 units so that I get a final record and all of the inputs also.

Anway just some suggestions on ONE approach, you really need to look at your requirements, budget, if you are going to be doing it ALL your self or are you working with feeds from other operations etc

Sharyn

reginaldh1 said:

My name is Reggie Hogan, I live north of Atlanta (Acworth, Ga) I'm looking for some advice on capturing live video and audio feeds. What is the best way of capturing live sound. What type of feed and what media type are best. What type of rig should be used ie Protools, Dat, ADAT? Live music recording production from within a large venue is what I'm referring to mainly. How would a protools rig be setup in a situation like this, recording using 20 to 28 live channels. (vocals and instruments)

Click to expand...

Your questions seem to cover a broad range.
20 to 28 channels suggests multitracking to me. Since you mentioned Protools, I would lean towards one of their larger interfaces and a laptop for portable work. 002 rack would give you 8 analog inputs for smaller events and then use the ADAT inputs for 24 (i think) more inputs for larger gigs. Straight recording with no plug-ins or extra processing should run stable on a laptop.

If you don't have a thing specifically for Protools, there are several other similar programs. Audition is one that we use here at school when we are outside the studio. We feed the 2nd side of a splitter to some MOTU preamps and then go into a laptop via firewire 400. I've recorded 24 tracks that way just fine. I still like Protools better than Audition for it's mixdown features, but for simple edits in a mostly PC environment Audiotion isn't bad.

You also mentioned DAT recording. I haven't used DAT in years. DAT, like a CD is a two track (stereo) recording. At least with the CD I can listen to the recording on the way home. (who has DAT machines in their car?) Typically a two track recording would be fed from a mix buss or or a matrix, and whatever you mix the first time had better be good, because there is no way to go back and change it. If you want a board recording, I would at least go to a CD recorder that records WAV files so I have a standard playback medium.

Whatever you end up with remember to record as high a sample rate and bit depth as you have memory and processor to deal with. You can always dither it down to 44.1/16 when you make you final disc but most DAW effects sound better at higher sample rates.

Matt

Make sure you have permission to record. I do quite a bit of work in Acworth at Theatre on Main. Perhaps we can meet up and talk about your application more.

reginaldh1 said:

My name is Reggie Hogan, I live north of Atlanta (Acworth, Ga) I'm looking for some advice on capturing live video and audio feeds. What is the best way of capturing live sound. What type of feed and what media type are best. What type of rig should be used ie Protools, Dat, ADAT? Live music recording production from within a large venue is what I'm referring to mainly. How would a protools rig be setup in a situation like this, recording using 20 to 28 live channels. (vocals and instruments)

Click to expand...

mixmaster said:

Your questions seem to cover a broad range.
20 to 28 channels suggests multitracking to me. Since you mentioned Protools, I would lean towards one of their larger interfaces and a laptop for portable work. 002 rack would give you 8 analog inputs for smaller events and then use the ADAT inputs for 24 (i think) more inputs for larger gigs. Straight recording with no plug-ins or extra processing should run stable on a laptop.

If you don't have a thing specifically for Protools, there are several other similar programs. Audition is one that we use here at school when we are outside the studio. We feed the 2nd side of a splitter to some MOTU preamps and then go into a laptop via firewire 400. I've recorded 24 tracks that way just fine. I still like Protools better than Audition for it's mixdown features, but for simple edits in a mostly PC environment Audiotion isn't bad.

You also mentioned DAT recording. I haven't used DAT in years. DAT, like a CD is a two track (stereo) recording. At least with the CD I can listen to the recording on the way home. (who has DAT machines in their car?) Typically a two track recording would be fed from a mix buss or or a matrix, and whatever you mix the first time had better be good, because there is no way to go back and change it. If you want a board recording, I would at least go to a CD recorder that records WAV files so I have a standard playback medium.

Whatever you end up with remember to record as high a sample rate and bit depth as you have memory and processor to deal with. You can always dither it down to 44.1/16 when you make you final disc but most DAW effects sound better at higher sample rates.

Matt

Click to expand...

The Digi 002 will only support 8 channels of ADAT input bringing your total to 16. However only 4 of the 8 analog inputs are preamps which may be a problem depending on your source. Also I assume you really meant the Digi 003? The 002 is no longer manufactured by Digidesign.

Unless you are completely set as using Protools as your DAW I would recommend hardware from a different manufacturer, The 00X series seems rather crippled in features for its price point. I do agree that the MOTU hardware is great. A MOTU 896mk3 flanked by 2 8 channel ADAT pre's seems like it may fit your needs. Plus the 896 has some very cool dsp and standalone features.

As for a DAW if you are mac based you may want to look into Logic studio it is a pretty good overall studio package.

Let us know more info so we can help!

The problem is in getting the right feeds. If you want to take feeds off of the FOH or monitor consoles, the console's channels will need direct outputs that are pre insert and pre EQ. This is not a standard configuration, thus you are not likely to find this anywhere. So you'll need to carry your own splitter and either console or rack of mic preamps. You also need either a hard disc recorder (Mackie, Alesis, Tascam) with analog inputs, or a bunch of A-D converters and a computer with appropriate software (Audacity, Sonar, Digital Performer, ProTools). OR a splitter, the Roland digital console, and a PC with Sonar. IF you can get them to use your console for the show, you won' need the splitter.

If you have a mackie board, then the trick is to insert the 1/4 inch jack part way (mackie talks about this on their manuals) and then you can feed line in on the Alesis HD24 for instance

If you make up a splitter at the mic level side of things then one option is to get 2 or 3 Behringer ADA8000's which have 8 mic pre's to adat
You could use a specifically made up splitter or you can use split Y cables on the xl's

I have also used Yahama boards with Adat output cards, they give you the option of direct out from the pre's to the adat interface


While Protools is not my favorite it is the most common and the most likely to be used in a pro environment, and allows for work on LE to be used on a HD system.

Again there are a variety of options

Sharyn

SHARYNF said:

If you have a mackie board, then the trick is to insert the 1/4 inch jack part way (mackie talks about this on their manuals) and then you can feed line in on the Alesis HD24 for instance

If you make up a splitter at the mic level side of things then one option is to get 2 or 3 Behringer ADA8000's which have 8 mic pre's to adat
You could use a specifically made up splitter or you can use split Y cables on the xl's

Sharyn

Click to expand...

Be aware that "direct-out" trick with many Mackie consoles, will occupy the insert jack (split send/return TRS) which ultimately gives up the ability for the FOH mix to run serial effects/processing such as comps/gates/limiters. With 24 inputs, I'll assume most would prefer to leave the inserts free for processing.

In many cases, running phantom power sources such as DIs and/or condenser microphones to multiple sources via split snake, the actual split becomes more complicated than just a y-cable. In many live productions the main snake will have a handful output legs for FOH, Monitors, Recording, Video, etc. What happens if all run phantom power? What if an input the mixer in the video truck is miswired? At the risk of boring everyone with a science lecture, I'll keep in short and sweet. Generally, XLR should be split using dedicated "split snake" or "split box" or "xlr distro" with both transformers to maintain proper impedance for each signal and iso's to isolate the each signal from feeding each other noise or phantom power. These boxes will often have phantom power supplies built right in for each input because it isolates the power coming from the various consoles its outputting too.

A simple google search will yield many quality iso-transformer split snakes and distributors. Most of the quality snake manufacturers offer a wide range of xlr-splitters and offer custom integrated splitting/distribution options you can spec with a new custom snake.

I guess there are two schools of thought, one is that at any level of production the only approach is to super high end perfect solution. Sure If you are Metallica for instance and you are recording each concert for immediate transfer for download mp3 for the fans, you want the finest solution, along with the mega buck pa etc etc.

I think we also need to look at practical solutions that are priced realistically to this audience. There are many levels that can be used to get a split input, some more perfect than others, but most of the time budget dictates the method chosen. so the choice becomes wait until you have the megabucks for the perfect solution or come up with a practical solution that meets the budget constraints

Here is a link to a thread on PSW talking about split snakes and the need for transformers.

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/478357/0/?srch=split+snake+transformers#msg_478357

For clarification when they talk about hard split it is a non iso transformer split

Sharyn

Since it does not seem to have been explicitly put, ProTools LE, by design, will only take 18 simultaneous record inputs. Any more than that and Avid make you go to a HD rig with associated price tag.

Honestly, with digital stage boxes and snakes, the need for transformer splitting is declining. You still feed broadcast (if they aren't digital stag boxes) off transformer iso feeds given a choice.

There seems to be some misinformation about passive splitters. They are as simple as connectors and a transformer (per channel) with ground lift switches normally. There is not much impedance matching going on, they are 1:1 transformers... There is also no iso, the transformer performs that function - there is only a magnetic coupling between the input and output and nothing electrical. With passive splits, one console will provide the phantom normally, who it is varies. With active splitting, the splitter will provide the phantom because there is not direct return path from console to input in any splitter I'm aware of.

itis correct that Pro Tools LE has a 18 Input simultaneous record limit BUT what folks are doing is using for instance a Alesis HD 24 or multiples of them which record to a hard drive and then transfering the recorded files to your Protools LE project, in this Config, LE will support 48 tracks,it is ONLY a simultaneous record issue.

Sharyn

I just got done with a situation that worked very well, for as best as i can tell a fairly reasonable price using a soundcraft mixer with 6 group outs, a yamaha digital mixer and a zoom portable recorder with a mac as the extra meters/recording device.

The soundcraft was the house mix, the yamaha was the recording mix. The groups were being passed from the soundcraft into the yamaha, and from the yamaha via firewire to logic on the mac with the zoom acting as an interface. Worked great recorded multi tracks wonderfully and was easily and quickly transferable.

but I gotta add if you have the cash protools interfaces are infinitely better.

So am I correct that the actual recorded project was 2 tracks?
Sharyn

Nope had each of the tracks we were mixing on the yamaha so in our case we had vocals, foley, band mix, verb and audience mics. The zoom just acted at an interface to the laptop from the board. It wasnt actually using it as the actual recording device. You can have as many tracks as your board can send into logic

I should note in our case we were limited to 6 channels total into the recording console because we were using the group outs from the live mix board to the recording console.

So using the Zoom as the recording interface only, then you had 4 individual tracks on the PC that are then able to be remixed? Just curious, Usually I try to get as many seperate tracks (stems) on the PC so that later on I have the flexibility to re alter the mix. Reason is that unless I have a very high degree of isolation from the actual venue (in other room or outside truck etc), the bleed thru can tend to make getting the mix not quite right.

Sharyn