dimmer or circuit problem

I

itie

Active Member
hi guys,

so my theatre has an old problem but it finally became a problem i want to solve. whats happening is circuit (not sure if that is the right name) to the lights are starting to stop working. at first i didnt know if it was a dimmer problem, board problem, fixture, or circuit problem. i switch boards, and fixture and still have the bad circuits. i finally got the chance to check the dimmer and they seemed fine, so i pulled a dimmer that knew worked and swapped it with one that wasnt and it still didnt work. now i am left to assume that it is the line going from the light to the dimmer. what i have been doing in the past is running a cable form a free dimmer but now we are running out of dimmers. so if you guys have any thoughts on what could be causing it i would much appreciate the advise. oh and our theatre is only 5 to 6 years old.

thanks
giovanni
 
I take it your dimmers are semi-permanently wired to the waylines going to the lanterns? We have the occasional issue with waylines not working, and 99% of the time it's at the socket end - a wire that's come loose, usually - plugs get smacked in with a bit too much force and they loosen over time. Get a sparky in to check the waylines - both ends, and if the problem is not there then it's a little more complex, but I'd suspect that it'll be at one end or the other.
 
im sorry i dont know what a wayline is. and we have colortran dimmers im almost positive that they are i96 series. i thought that it might be the socket near the fixture but the last channel that went out is doubled. im not sure how it was done but we have two 124 on the cyc (some of the other cyc channels are doubled to) that no matter what would always come up together. so i know they are coming from the same dimmer. well when both channels went out at the same time i thought that was odd if it was a socket problem.

thanks
giovanni
 
I am thinking a wayline is what a stateside technician would call a "pigtail"
that would be the 3'/1m cable and plug coming from the wire raceway.
apparently some of your dimmer outputs are wired in "parallel", so you may have more than one plug for dimmer 124
You are likely right that the problem is not both plugs so it may be that there is a problem in the raceway or in the junction box connecting the multi-cable to the raceway (ether end)
so you should try to get a school maintenance request in to track the problem down.
 
Allow me to translate from NZ to USA...
kiwitechgirl said:
I take it your dimmers are [-]semi-[/-]permanently wired to the [-]waylines[/-] circuits going to the [-]lanterns[/-] fixtures? We have the occasional issue with [-]waylines[/-] circuits not working, and 99% of the time it's at the [-]socket[/-] receptacle end - a wire that's come loose, usually - [-]plugs[/-] connectors get smacked in with a bit too much force and they loosen over time. Get [-]a sparky[/-] an electrician in to check the [-]waylines[/-] circuits - both ends, and if the problem is not there then it's a little more complex, but I'd suspect that it'll be at one end or the other.
Click to expand...
 
It certainly sounds like it is the circuit feed. Just one more thing to check, have your electrician check the bus the dimmer hook to, sometimes that gets too much dirt or arcs creating a bad spot on the buss. If the wire between the dimmer and light is good then it may be the buss. Also where it is doubled the connection in the wireway that connects the first to second may be bad.
 
Some more clarification could be helpful. We can assume that it is a permanent install with permanent raceways with parallel pigtails, but we don't know that for sure from the information the OP has given. Maybe the circuits are SO homeruns. Maybe the two cyc lights that come up together are just two-fered. Some definitive information on these unknowns may reveal a very simple and obvious solution without having the OP bring in a electrician to dig around in the dimmer rack.

-Tim
 
sorry if this seems like a "duh" idea but i just had it happen to me not too long ago, Have you tried swapping the fixture your using to test it with, could just be a burnt out lamp. I say this because I was just in the theater today and went to go turn on a fixture, it wont work. So i go check the dimmer rack, rack shows its receiving signal, hmm... swap out dimmer packs, same problem.... it was only when another person came in asked what i was doing then asked, Did you check your light? then i thought "duh", so I also agree with xander, more clarification is needed. Particulary, What model/make is the dimmer rack, was it professionally installed or is it home brew, and last but not least have you checked the rack to make sure that its receiving signal (should have a light on the rack itself that is solid or flashing when receiving signal from the DMX line).
 
This may not apply to your situation, but a school that I occasionally do work for called me and described a similar problem. I did all the typical troubleshooting without finding a solution and was forced to atypical things. On a wild hunch, I sat down in front of the desk, and checked for parked dimmers. Nobody at the school knew what a parked dimmer was, but somehow, there they were.

Usually, I start by troubleshooting the things that break often. This time, I wish I'd started with the easiest to fix.

LtheC
 
Dang, never thought about a parked dimmer. Wouldn't you have to have two parked to kill a module?
 
Last edited:
mstaylor said:
Dang, never thought about a parked dimmer. Wouldn't you have to have two patked to kill a module?
Click to expand...

I'm not that familiar with Colortran dimmers, or their operation when "doubled" so I couldn't say. Let me ask you a few questions...
If I understand correctly, they are in modules with 2 dimmers each, and two circuits that are bad both run to the same module?

Are there any user connections on the bad circuit, between the dimmer rack and the cyc light? I'll assume there is one, where the fixture plugs in to the circuit. (any patch bays, fan-outs, fan-ins, twofers, extention cables, or connectors of any type that can be used to break the circuit without tools)

How many circuits have gone bad, over what period of time ?

Is there a control module for the dimmer rack?

So far you have...
Checked the lights plugged in to the circuit by plugging them into another circuit?
Swaped the dimmer module connected to the circuit with a known good one?
Swapped the board out with another board?
(Did you load the patch on to the new board from a disk created by the first board, or by hand, or was the second board in a clear, default state for the test?)

If you get the bad circuits to work, please let us know what the solution was.

LtheC
 
Lampie makes a good point, if you switch boards, I would use a factory one to one patch to ensure there isn't something corrupted in your patch.
The order of troubleshooting should be:
1) swap the bad light plug to a known working circuit.
A. if the light works then plug the other light into the old bad circuit.
B. if the light doesn't work then check the lamp, then the plug.
C. if the original working light doesn't work in the bad circuit then go to the dimmers.
2) at the dimmers check the breakers.
A. plug the nonworking module into a known slot.
1. if it doesn't work check the portion of the dimer that contacts the buss for burn marks or pitting.
B. if it works, plug the working module into the bad slot.
1. if it doesn't work check the buss for burn marks or dirt.
3) switch boards using a one to one patch.
A. if it still doesn't work then bring the board down to the dimmer rack and use a seperate DMX cable to check the patch again.
4) Call support for your board and tell them what you have done.
 
mstaylor said:
Lampie makes a good point, if you switch boards, I would use a factory one to one patch to ensure there isn't something corrupted in your patch.
The order of troubleshooting should be:
1) swap the bad light plug to a known working circuit.
A. if the light works then plug the other light into the old bad circuit.
B. if the light doesn't work then check the lamp, then the plug.
C. if the original working light doesn't work in the bad circuit then go to the dimmers.
2) at the dimmers check the breakers.
A. plug the nonworking module into a known slot.
1. if it doesn't work check the portion of the dimer that contacts the buss for burn marks or pitting.
B. if it works, plug the working module into the bad slot.
1. if it doesn't work check the buss for burn marks or dirt.
3) switch boards using a one to one patch.
A. if it still doesn't work then bring the board down to the dimmer rack and use a seperate DMX cable to check the patch again.
4) Call support for your board and tell them what you have done.
Click to expand...

The one thing you missed was to try a known good light on the circuit in question.
 
That was 1a just phrased weird.
To kicknargel, a control module would fall in the call support region. I would suggest most even try swapping dimmers around but in this case he had already done that.
 
wow thanks for all the help. ill try and answer all your questions.
[/The order of troubleshooting should be:
1) swap the bad light plug to a known working circuit.
i did that and it works
A. if the light works then plug the other light into the old bad circuit.
the other works but not plugged into the old bad circuit
B. if the light doesn't work then check the lamp, then the plug.
new lamp
C. if the original working light doesn't work in the bad circuit then go to the dimmers.
2) at the dimmers check the breakers.
all good
A. plug the nonworking module into a known slot.
did it and it works
1. if it doesn't work check the portion of the dimer that contacts the buss for burn marks or pitting.
B. if it works, plug the working module into the bad slot.
did it and it doesn't work.
1. if it doesn't work check the buss for burn marks or dirt.
3) switch boards using a one to one patch.
done still no luck
A. if it still doesn't work then bring the board down to the dimmer rack and use a seperate DMX cable to check the patch again.
4) Call support for your board and tell them what you have done.]

on a side not we had county electrician in the theatre for a blown lamp problem and i got the vibe from him that he wasn't going near anything with the stage lights. when i told him some of the circuit weren't working he offered no help.

and this is what i have tried.
1)different light boards
2)different dimmers
3)plugged the light into a working circuit and it works
4)plugged working light into bad circuit and it doesnt work.

thanks again
giovanni
Click to expand...
 
mstaylor said:
That was 1a just phrased weird.
To kicknargel, a control module would fall in the call support region. I would suggest most even try swapping dimmers around but in this case he had already done that.
Click to expand...

i turned off the dimmer before i did it, and i wanted to make sure it was not that. i am wondering why it is a bad idea to swapped dimmers?
 
Some techs have no real knowledge of what they are doing and as such they should leave it alone. Many times it is a HS student asking and they are generally restricted from doing such things by their school. If you have some knowledge and make sure you are killing power before swapping then it isn't a problem.
In the OP I knew he had done some of my list of troubleshooting but wanted to cover the whole list.
As far as the school electrician, some guys know what they know but don't want to venture outside their comfort zone. I had a problem with a generator leaking power to ground on a show for a local municipality. I called the city electrician and he refused to touch it. He said he had no knowledge of generators and I needed to fix it. I did but he should have come in anyway.
 
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