Can A Fire Marshal Ban Haze???

I had an event last year where the towns fire marshall got pretty pissed because we were using what he called a smoke like effect (ultra tech hazer) which he said could create confusion. We decided not to use it further for the last two nights of the show so we would not create a big fight. Now I might have a gig at the same venue and my question is, can I fight this? We used the haze in a light maner and never used thick smoke where it would inpair vision. It was light haze only. I read though as many fire policies as I could online for the town and could not find anything reagarding to theatre or any type of effects. Can the fire marshall just do what he wants or do I have a fight??

The fire marshal can do whatever they want when they want. If you fight it your show could get shut down for any violation they can find. Don't fight it. In my building we have to get clearance from state fire to do any atmospheric effects. Don't push it. If you want to have a friendly dialog about it way in advance of the gig, go for it. Keep it positive though.

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Footer said:

The fire marshal can do whatever they want when they want. If you fight it your show could get shut down for any violation they can find. Don't fight it. In my building we have to get clearance from state fire to do any atmospheric effects. Don't push it. If you want to have a friendly dialog about it way in advance of the gig, go for it. Keep it positive though.

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Wouldn't state overide the town fire marshall?

Footer has to go through the state because he's on state property if I'm not mistaken. Again, don't fight it and (not that you are thinking of it) don't try to side step the local marshall by going over his or her head.

josh88 said:

Footer has to go through the state because he's on state property if I'm not mistaken. Again, don't fight it and (not that you are thinking of it) don't try to side step the local marshall by going over his or her head.

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I'm just suprised, in all these years I never had this problem. I could understand thick smoke but light haze makes no sense. It is what it is I guess.

their jobs are to interpret the laws and codes to best protect public safety. some AHJ's opinions differ in how exactly to do that. Using this as an example, some may be fine with haze in a theatre some may react like you've seen. Some could require a person stand fire watch during events. It all depends on the AHJ and the situations. The best thing you can do is play nice and stay friendly because as Footer mentioned they could shut you down at the drop of a hat.

I work in an arena in one town that won't allow any effects including dry ice. They cite it will set off the duct detecters. In my arena we are allowed to do whatever we want as long as any pyro is permited and inspected. Haze or anything else is fine as long as we have a fire watch. I work in a third venue that will allow it but you have the safety guy sitting fire watch. Three different counties and two different states.

lightman02 said:

Wouldn't state overide the town fire marshall?

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Yes and no. Both have jurisdiction. However, as stated, my building is owned by the state... on state property. My building is on the NYS capital complex. With that, we have a 8 fire marshals on site, one being on duty 24/7. So, I usually have a fire marshal in my space at least once during any given show.

mstaylor said:

I work in an arena in one town that won't allow any effects including dry ice. They cite it will set off the duct detecters. In my arena we are allowed to do whatever we want as long as any pyro is permited and inspected. Haze or anything else is fine as long as we have a fire watch. I work in a third venue that will allow it but you have the safety guy sitting fire watch. Three different counties and two different states.

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I actually have that same issue. I have smoke heads on my stage, one USC 20' off deck and the rest 65' off deck on the grid. When they trip, firewall comes in, audible alarm goes off.... trucks roll... etc. However, I can go into a bypass that essentially turns off the strobes, audible, and fire wall relays. It does activate a panel onstage and still sends an alarm to the state police dispatch on property. I then have to inspect the head and give an all clear.

HOWEVER.... there are air quality sensors in all of my return air ducts. If one of those sensors gets tripped, HVAC totally shuts down, an alarm goes off in the state police dispatch, and trucks roll. No alarm is signaled in the theatre. Instead, you know it tripped by having firefighters in turnout gear in the back isle. When the HVAC shuts down, that is it for the day. Shows over, full evac, etc. The building can not be open with HVAC shut down and it can not be turned back on until the building clears. So, yes, this is real. It has not happened since I have been in my current job, but it has happened the the last few years.

Its one more reason I never let a road LD run their own haze, instead Mrs. Footer gets to play "haze monkey". Now, tomorrow night I have the bass player from Phish in, so I doubt we will even need to run the hazer....

Footer said:

I can go into a bypass that essentially turns off the strobes, audible, and fire wall relays. It does activate a panel onstage and still sends an alarm to the state police dispatch on property. I then have to inspect the head and give an all clear.

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Do you need to notify the various jurisdictions when you go into "bypass" mode? if so how much notice do they need?

lightman02 said:

Can the fire marshall just do what he wants or do I have a fight??

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I think it likely has to do with allocation of resources. If the fire department sends most of its crews and equipment out to properly respond to the venue size. Those resources depend on each other to properly respond. Then they are unavailable to respond to a real life and death situation when responding to what turns out to be a false alarm. The unknown nature of the alarm puts the fire commander in a very tight position when a second need arises. This Fire Marshal may have been in such a situation before. He just wants to be able to get help to the people who have a real need, when they need it.

venuetech said:

Do you need to notify the various jurisdictions when you go into "bypass" mode? if so how much notice do they need?

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No advance warning really. Just a simple call down to dispatch to let them know whats going on. If we are going to have open flame onstage we do require a fire Marshall to be onstage at all times, however, for haze its not required. They let us run the fire watch.

Once again though, this is a state building. Local laws don't apply. Really, on top of that, state laws also don't apply.

When we go into "bypass", we spin a 6 hour timer... and I set an alarm on my phone to re-set before it runs out. If it runs out, it puts the alarm system into normal operation. Therefore, it is impossible to have the alarm turned off for more then 6 hours if no one its in the building.

venuetech said:

I think it likely has to do with allocation of resources. If the fire department sends most of its crews and equipment out to properly respond to the venue size. Those resources depend on each other to properly respond. Then they are unavailable to respond to a real life and death situation when responding to what turns out to be a false alarm. The unknown nature of the alarm puts the fire commander in a very tight position when a second need arises. This Fire Marshal may have been in such a situation before. He just wants to be able to get help to the people who have a real need, when they need it.

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Well there would in fact be no bypasing the alarm with the show I was working on. They only had heat detection. When we were using the haze, we had the alarm system fully online. Like I said we have done shows there before with haze and never had a problem and never tripped any alarms. He even had a problem with a C02 based hand held conffetti launcher. He wouldn't let them use that either. Seems more of a power trip thing then saftey at this point.

lightman02 said:

Well there would in fact be no bypasing the alarm with the show I was working on. They only had heat detection. When we were using the haze, we had the alarm system fully online. Like I said we have done shows there before with haze and never had a problem and never tripped any alarms. He even had a problem with a C02 based hand held conffetti launcher. He wouldn't let them use that either. Seems more of a power trip thing then saftey at this point.

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As Kyle and Josh stated earlier, it is their interpretation, not yours, that matters. You can fight their interpretation but that creates an adversarial relationship and is probably just going to make things worse. It is generally much better to try to work with them to try to find a solution that satisfies their concerns and works for you.

Also, don't think this is limited to effects. When I worked for an Electrical and Mechanical Engineering firm we often encountered an AHJ that would view something differently than in past inspections. I still remember a hotel that was being sold for which an inspection as a condition of the sale. The AHJ took issue with an kitchen exhaust hood duct condition that had been inspected and approved dozens of times before without comment. Doing what they wanted caused the vibration from the hood and associated airflow to be transferred directly into the rooms above making those rooms exceed the buyers criteria for guest room noise and vibration which in turn made the hotel short two viable guest rooms and threatened the entire sale. The fact that the same installation had been accepted in the past and in other venues was irrelevant, luckily we were able to develop a solution that resolved the noise and vibration while also being acceptable to the AHJ.

When we bypass the fire system, it is just a alarm off type bypass. We place one of my hands to watch the fire panel, if it goes off I am notified and then decide to either allow the alarm through or reset it. It has only gone off once in this condition and it was a kid pulling a fire station. I'm surprised the building that allows the bypass actually burned down once.

so yeah, basically they can claim whatever they want based on their mood and you have no recourse, well except for just doing what you want and hoping they don't want to try and shut you down.

If he was worried about it creating confusion perhaps posting signs warning that "haze will be in use" might ease his concerns?

Also if you keep having issued with the fire marshall, hiring off duty officers to work security can go a loooonng way...

A little education without sounding condescending can go a long way. The job of Fire Marshall is very discretionary and they often err on the side of safety. That's the side I like to err on as well. If you can provide research and examples on what is being done in other venues and is allowable and if you provide samples, MSDS sheets and other supporting documentation for their review you can educate and perhaps even have them change their ruling on the matter.
But if they decide you are causing them problems or questioning their authority they can and likely will slap you down. When your job is having discretionary decision making power having someone question you on that can be a bad play.

Pie4Weebl said:

so yeah, basically they can claim whatever they want based on their mood and you have no recourse, well except for just doing what you want and hoping they don't want to try and shut you down.

If he was worried about it creating confusion perhaps posting signs warning that "haze will be in use" might ease his concerns?

Also if you keep having issued with the fire marshall, hiring off duty officers to work security can go a loooonng way...

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Hello, at our high school when we use pre wecorded warning that we play when we play the "please turn off your cell phone" warning before every show. The warning warns the audience that the show contains effects such as smoke, pyrotechnics, strobe lights, various other atmospheric effects etc...

elliot47 said:

Hello, at our high school when we use pre wecorded warning that we play when we play the "please turn off your cell phone" warning before every show. The warning warns the audience that the show contains effects such as smoke, pyrotechnics, strobe lights, various other atmospheric effects etc...

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That warning still isn't enough to permit you do do some of that stuff without clearing it with a fire marshal however. Just because you warn that you might have streaming jets of fire, your fire marshall probably wouldn't like it. I've had the "flight attendant" announcement at all of my venues, saying turn off cell phones, no photgraphy, and in the event of a fire exits are located at A, B, and C.

josh88 said:

That warning still isn't enough to permit you do do some of that stuff without clearing it with a fire marshal however. Just because you warn that you might have streaming jets of fire, your fire marshall probably wouldn't like it. I've had the "flight attendant" announcement at all of my venues, saying turn off cell phones, no photgraphy, and in the event of a fire exits are located at A, B, and C.

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Very true, the rules on pyro have changed quite a bit since 9/11. Pyro things that were gray areas in the past are now possibly federal crimes. Never do any pyro without discussing what you want to do with your fire marshal and making sure you have a properly licensed technician to operate it.

Good points from everyone. As far as fighting it, I wouldn't recommended it. I shoot pyrotechnics full time. We get an average of 3-5 permits per week, and deal with a Fire Marshal/Inspector for each one. If they don't allow something that is perfectly legal by code (like in this case), we question it and try to work with them on how to accomplish things in a way that makes them comfortable (i.e having standby present, etc.). If it's still now allowed we don't usually fight it and lose they money. If it's a big enough show (usually $10k+) we get our attorney involved. It guarantees they'll hate you forever but it depends on how much business is at stake. It's definitely not a fun situation. Good luck!