Digital Snake

We are upgrading our snake from a move of our sound desk from upstairs to down stairs. We are currently using the Yamaha M7CL48 for our mixer, but we are using one of our card slots for aviom in ear mixes. We are in need of a digital snake to get from the stage to the desk. What would be the best suggested solution for this? The digital snake made by Yamaha is perfect, but you need three open card slots to use all three and we only have two.
 
Not sure if it works for you, but we are going with Focusrite's Red Net. Not really a digital snake per se, but check it out for yuks if nothing else. Sends out Dante which Yamaha should be able to use.

As always, your mileage may vary.
 
Nothing is going to be better then going Dante with Yamaha stage boxes. If you don't go that route you won't have control of the pres on the desk. For an installed situation I would just run the copper.
 
We are upgrading our snake from a move of our sound desk from upstairs to down stairs. We are currently using the Yamaha M7CL48 for our mixer, but we are using one of our card slots for aviom in ear mixes. We are in need of a digital snake to get from the stage to the desk. What would be the best suggested solution for this? The digital snake made by Yamaha is perfect, but you need three open card slots to use all three and we only have two.

The problem is that each card slot is hardware restricted to 16 in and 16 out, so you cannot have more than 32 channels if you retain the aviom card.
If you need 48 channels, you will need to involve analog at some stage, either analog outputs to an outboard Aviom input unit, or analog outputs from the digital snake feeding analog inputs in the desk. Remote preamp gain control will likely be lost...
 
Nothing is going to be better then going Dante with Yamaha stage boxes. If you don't go that route you won't have control of the pres on the desk. For an installed situation I would just run the copper.
We are in a installed situation, but were looking for the easiest way of running lines to a new booth and digital snake seemed to be the way to go. However if copper is more affordable and is on par with quality I would be interested in a suggested brand for a 48 channel snake.
 
We are in a installed situation, but were looking for the easiest way of running lines to a new booth and digital snake seemed to be the way to go. However if copper is more affordable and is on par with quality I would be interested in a suggested brand for a 48 channel snake.

Digital is very easy if everything is compatible. If everything is not digital is a HUGE headache. I love digital snakes for touring. For install, I much prefer an old fashioned analog snake simply because analog snakes are compatible with every console.

So, as far as what to buy, I assume you are also going to need return lines, most likely 16. So, a 48x16 snake. How "installed" do you want it to be? Do you want to have a nice patch panel in your current booth or do you just want to leave a stagebox or fan up there and drop the lines down as easily as possible? Whatever it is, a 48 channel snake is not a shelf item. Give your vendor of choice a call and have them get you a quote from Whirlwind. Odds are you will end up with a 56 channel mic line snake with a 12 channel return snake or something like that. It also depends on if you want multi-pin connections at each location. All in, you will probably spend 5 grand depending on distance. You could also on the cheap loom a few 24 channel snakes together and do what you want. All just depends on how clean you want to go and how permanent you want the move to be.
 
Footer has some good suggestions.
We actually have both digital and copper. I would also suggest running some CAT6 lines alongside too - perhaps a few strands of single and multi mode fiber?
Something to think about while running lines - future proofing.
Whirlwind is good. We also love REDCO.com. Dave Berliner has always great wire and a good price.
Probably worth getting a few quotes for the bean counters.

HTH & WMMV
 
Copper is definitely the way to go when it comes to price. A 250' Whirlwind Medusa 48-in, 10-out will probably run you about $3500-$4000 (depending on how much your dealer's markup is). A 16ch Aviom A-net system MSRP is about $7000. Plus with copper, you don't have to worry about having external devices to manipulate gain, or compatability if/when a console gets upgraded. Definitely look into pulling future cabling in, CAT6a and fiber are good suggestions. Digital snakes are only going to get more common, especially with brands like Yamaha directly integrating Dante into their boards.
 
If I'm not mistaken, there are a few consoles using coax for their snakes too, so depending on whether you'll ever see those, or need to run video down there, some SDI grade coax could be a wise move...
 
What I'm seeing overlooked in the discussion of analog infrastructure is the method of routing that up to the control booth from the in-house mix position. Copper can be (relatively) inexpensive, but only if the means exist to route that where you want without much hassle. If no suitable trough/conduit/pathway exists, it's much easier to have one new CAT5E or *CAT6 cable run than it is to run 64 pairs for mic lines/returns.

If you did go analog and purchased a snake, make sure it's a fan-to-fan snake. The previously mentioned Medusa product is box-to-fan, which you'd then need another 48+10 cables to go from the box into your existing mic line runs and returns. Don't go this route.

If you do need to go through conduit, a pre-made solution will not work for you and you would need someone to pull the wire and field-terminate it onto panels. Not a big deal, but don't rule it out as it is a cleaner solution for an install than having a portable mic snake permanently routed around their theater.

I would forego the coax unless you need it. Someone else brings a console into your space with a coax or fiber digital transport from their console to their stage boxes, they'll be bringing their own snakes. For that matter, they'll be mixing from the in-house mix position. Should you buy a new console that requires it, you can add it then and build it into the price of that project at that time.

(* tempting to think you'd be future-proofing by installing CAT6 instead of CAT5E, but be warned that shielded CAT7 is about to be the next big thing, at least for video-over-CATx cable because of the impending move to 4K video)
 
@Chris15 Typically that transport is using MADI, I know the old Digico D5 used it, probably the newer SD series uses it too.

@MNicolai If he was looking at a digital snake system, there would be a interface box on each end. So there would be double the amount of cables needed, as opposed to a box-to-fan. Also, 4K video already works great on shielded CAT6 using HDbaseT.

@Luke Flowers There are a ton of variables (as you can tell by reading), and more info would help, such as cabling path and length, what you're plugging into the stage end, etc...

Also I didn't even think of asking - which Aviom card do you have in your M7? Because theoretically (I'm not an Aviom expert), if you installed a total of 3 6416Y2 cards, you can use the snake abilities of A-net, and you still have all of the outputs needed to drive your ears. Obviously you'd still need the snake boxes on stage as well, but this solution may fit what you really want.
 
@MNicolai If he was looking at a digital snake system, there would be a interface box on each end. So there would be double the amount of cables needed, as opposed to a box-to-fan.

I was referring to if he used an analog snake instead, and to extend his existing analog infrastructure up to the booth from the in-house mix position, rather than add new infrastructure all the way from the stage up to the booth.

The product you mentioned, Medusa, is analog box-to-fan, which may require an extra set of cables on the in-house mix position end to tie in with the existing analog infrastructure. An analog fan-to-fan may eliminate that need depending on what his existing analog infrastructure is. Difference between needing one extra set of cabling on one end, and not needing an extra set at all.

If it was a digital snake with boxes on one or both ends, yes each end with stage box requires cabling to-and-fro.

Also, 4K video already works great on shielded CAT6 using HDbaseT.

For some distances, yes. For longer distances, it requires shielded CAT7 or fiber. That's neither here nor there though -- I was only remarking that a lot of people thought putting in CAT6 while they were putting in other cables would prevent them from ever having to put in anything else. Won't be too long before CAT6 isn't enough though, especially since we're receiving a lot of indication from our manufacturers' reps that 4K is merely a brief stepping stone into 8K.

Back on topic:
The Whirlwind ES4TD may be one of the more inexpensive digital snakes available. You can get 3 transmitter/receiver pairs that'll do 48x24 total. As with all audio stuff though, get a quote. Don't just order online or you may end up paying more than you should.
 
Last I heard, 70 metres on Crestron's over specced cable was te max at 4K, 50m on anything else.
Single Mode fibre should have enough bandwidth for anything in the foreseeable future, subject to impurities, it theoretically has an unlimited bandwidth...
Just a shame the transceivers are not as cheap as copper...

Weren't Avid at one point using a coax based snake protocol that wasn't MADI?

I maintain my position that the only properly future resistant option is empty conduit with draw string...
 
@Chris15 You're right, the D-show's stage rack uses dual coax, can't find the protocol though. And absolutely right with the conduit, if I'm putting a job together, I leave at least an extra 2" at any mixing position or control room to facilitate future cabling (or for when the sparky puts in two 2" conduits instead of the two 4" I called for haha)

@MNicolai I'm not going to speculate on which way the OP wants to route his cables. The OP asked for a stage to desk snake, and that is what I suggested. And the Medusa line of snakes is a perfectly acceptable product for that. Also, the DS328T/R and the DS168T/R would be a cheaper option than the ES4TD, with basically the same feature set, even though neither of them have any sort of remote HA control (use a tweaker at each end to adjust gain)

4.2.2 4K is spec'd in HDbaseT 1.0 to run up to 100m. Every cable recommended by the HDBaseT Alliance is either CAT5e, CAT6, or CAT6a. No mention of CAT7 anywhere(which isn't surprising, considering there is no spec for it yet) My DMC-E says that the Crestron DM will run 4K over their 8G cable up to 100m, but we've never done it yet. Obviously fiber is a completely different animal. Now if we're talking about 4.4.4 TRUE 4K... start breaking out the quad-SDI runs haha.
 
We probably should be splitting this off into a new thread, but...

When I did my DMC-D-4K, they were talking 70 metres, apprently the lab testing is showing that in anything but perfect conditions, the long lengths are just putting out too many errors. The threshold for a fail is a mere 1 bit error per billion, which when you're running at 8.9 Gbps (for 4:2:0), by my quick maths, is about every hundred milliseconds...

The answer for 4K is already in our hands - fibre, even at 17.8 GBps for 4:4:4 4K@24, 8 bit.
I know Crestron don't yet have product for 4K on fibre shipping, I don't know about others.
There's work being done on using SFP as the lnk between the fibre and the electronics, so that could be a useful step forward, ESPECIALLY if they use off the shelf 10G ethernet SFP modules, economies fo scale and all that... (Or maybe they should just start thinking 40G transceivers for 8k video...)

Now, if only someone could come up with a fibre connector that's as easy as RJ45 for a non technical user to use and doesn't cost a couple of grand a connector like expanded beam which does mostly meet that requirement...
 
We are upgrading our snake from a move of our sound desk from upstairs to down stairs. We are currently using the Yamaha M7CL48 for our mixer, but we are using one of our card slots for aviom in ear mixes. We are in need of a digital snake to get from the stage to the desk. What would be the best suggested solution for this? The digital snake made by Yamaha is perfect, but you need three open card slots to use all three and we only have two.
Depending on your needs, it may actually be cheaper to replace your console with one that is designed for a digital snake. If you don't need 48 channels, a Behringer X32 with stage boxes would be <$5,000. An Allen-Heath GLD system can do 48 channels and would be ~$10K, or possibly close to $0 if you trade in your M7.

Just something to keep in mind before spending $8000 or whatever on either the Yamaha Rio boxes and Dante cards or a 3rd party snake system (not to mention the head amp control issues).
 
Depending on your needs, it may actually be cheaper to replace your console with one that is designed for a digital snake. If you don't need 48 channels, a Behringer X32 with stage boxes would be <$5,000. An Allen-Heath GLD system can do 48 channels and would be ~$10K, or possibly close to $0 if you trade in your M7.

Just something to keep in mind before spending $8000 or whatever on either the Yamaha Rio boxes and Dante cards or a 3rd party snake system (not to mention the head amp control issues).

The problem with that idea is that they have an Aviom system already for their ears, and I don't believe any of those consoles have a-net expansion.
 
The GLD is an under-appreciated system, IMO. The built-in Aviom output saves a pile of money, and with the integral snake, you're not paying twice for I/O. It sounds great, is super feature packed, and once you get the hang of the flexible control surface, you'll never go back to a fixed-architecture system like an M7.
 

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