Question for High Schools: Deeper apron or deeper US?

Yeah but a 6' door lets you get most grand pianos through - maybe not every bosendorfer. The problem with high schools in the US is that when they build, they have money. After that, until the next bond issue in 10-25 years, zippo. It is unfortunately a now or never situation. I've helped with replacement schools where the one being torn down had dimmer rack space for "future" modules, never added. With few exceptions I have found spending any money for preparing future equipment of almost no value. I don't think that's good necessarily but I'm not going to change the way school facilities are funded.

An accessible route from audience to stage is mandated in US by ADA and building codes. Your facility is apparently not compliant with the laws of the land.

PS - Just to clarify - you only have to have an accessible route if there is otherwise a route. Stairs from row 1 to stage are not required but if provided, someone in a wheelchair must be able to do same without leaving the auditorium.

Bill, I'm curious about this one - has this always been the case or is it a new interpretation? Our auditorium was redone about 7 years ago and there is no accommodation for this (it is also the only performing space in the district that has an accessible stage at all, but that's another can o' worms)

Chris
 
Bill, I'm curious about this one - has this always been the case or is it a new interpretation? Our auditorium was redone about 7 years ago and there is no accommodation for this (it is also the only performing space in the district that has an accessible stage at all, but that's another can o' worms)

Chris
Chris - re stage - ADA - accessibility, I think very early 2000s - like 2002?. I'd have to go through paper files to be sure. If a route from auditorium to stage there has to be an accessible route. Ditto orchestra pits - has more than doubled the cost of simple pits.

Both in building code and ADA regs.

Lots of buildings are designed and constructed that don't meet applicable codes and standards - law - for many items besides ADA.
 
Chris - re stage - ADA - accessibility, I think very early 2000s - like 2002?. I'd have to go through paper files to be sure. If a route from auditorium to stage there has to be an accessible route. Ditto orchestra pits - has more than doubled the cost of simple pits.

Both in building code and ADA regs.

Lots of buildings are designed and constructed that don't meet applicable codes and standards - law - for many items besides ADA.

Thanks Bill - I had a feeling that might be the case - so much fun to work around those types of issues!
 
Lots of buildings are designed and constructed that don't meet applicable codes and standards - law - for many items besides ADA.

Is there a reasonable fix for this, without major structural changes? I can't see it being possible in my space without rendering the floor-level pit useless. Even a small accessible lift would take up enough space that our chorus risers wouldn't fit, in addition to the fact that it would obstruct view for many.

We have traditionally used the ADA ramp in the adjoining corridor for this purpose.
 
Major structural changes is hard to define but without seeing it or at least plan and section, no idea what is possible.

First question would be is the first row/pit served by an accessible route.

Your best option may be a portable. Check here: http://ascension-lift.com. These cost more than the least expensive lifts designed for install, but do things that those don't. One of the biggest design problems with conventional lifts is the tower and rails that always stay high, 42" above stage. When I design with these in mind, I try to design in a storage niche, under the stage usually.
 
My issue with a large thrust is getting actors to walk down stage of the main when it's open. For some reason they refuse to break the plaster line, which keeps them further away from the audience. I'd rather have a shallow thrust, and a second traveler US of the main for when I needed additional depth down stage.
 
As been said already, I want enough space in front of the main curtain to be able to do community forums and school presentations that require only a speaker and possibly projection screen.
I also have school events where they will hand out senior awards/scholarships and will have the seniors line up on stage in groups for applause from the audience.
As seen on the attached photo, I like the amount of space I have. The only major issue I have is there is no entertainment downlight. In future renovations I'm working to have replacing the architectural cans in the cloud with a motorized lineset with power and DMX.
It is 50' across with 8'ish outside to 15'ish at center.
 

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As been said already, I want enough space in front of the main curtain to be able to do community forums and school presentations that require only a speaker and possibly projection screen.
I also have school events where they will hand out senior awards/scholarships and will have the seniors line up on stage in groups for applause from the audience.

I would also add its going to depend on how the school staffs and manages the theatre. Will there be a staff member or student there anytime it used that would know how to close the mid stage, provide decent light and so forth. Where I went to school most of these civic or school events were held with no tech on site. Janitor would unlock the theatre and leave to the other end of the building. It would just be house lights and people who knew nothing about even closing a main curtain.

If there is a full time tech/staff that can set the stage and lighting, drop a mid-stage main and so forth every time the space is used then I would say take it upstage. But if it's ran as a "your on your own" outside of larger productions, you have to make it as easy as it can be and keep the non-trained away from the expensive stage equipment.
 
For my two cents, it is extremely useful to have enough of an apron to do an in one scene while the scenery is shifting upstage. ( without having to rig a show curtain ).
When we did our renovation we ended up with an apron of between 6 and 8 feet ( curved stage). 25 feet from plaster line to cyc and it is very tight as we have no fly system and typically use wagons.

If it were me I would resist more apron than this.

Note that our apron has side entrances ( actor does not have to fight through the curtain). As well as a dedicated side light and top light position. IE it needs just as much light as the rest of the stage.

I'm late on this but wanted to comment. My theater has the world's poorest excuse for a "pit" so small and only 8" lower than the first row in the house. It's only been used once and I doubt will ever be used again. As a result we always use the apron with the pit cover on. At the edge of the proscenium my apron is 6' deep, it curves out to become 13' deep at center. I find this just about perfect. With the projection screen located just behind the grand, we have enough depth to do a panel discussion with people at tables which are slightly angled. Or we sit a group of guest speakers on stage in a curved chair arc where they can see the person speaking and the projection screen. Although during shows, yes the apron is only used for a quick transition scenes while we change the set upstage, but there are MANY other things we do at the school. In fact there is probably an equal number of events with the grand closed the whole time as ones that use the full stage. It would be very difficult to pull off many of the things we do, if the apron was only 6' deep.

On the flip side, it seems like EVERY renter wants rear projection on an upstage screen. I simply don't have enough stage depth to pull that off given the current technology available and the laws of physics. So, a little more depth would be nice.
 
I still not understanding why having 12' in front of a curtain - that is maybe 6-7' us of plaster line - is any different than pushing it all in front of plaster line and main curtain. It seems like so much space in front of main that is hard or difficult to light and have scenery on is a negative. But then I'm all about the plays.
 
I think it has to do with a feeling of being 'out there', up close and intimate with the audience. Note that this is a feeling that may not be based on actual distances or other measurable facts.
 
I think it has to do with a feeling of being 'out there', up close and intimate with the audience. Note that this is a feeling that may not be based on actual distances or other measurable facts.

I certainly agree with this thought process. Our space has been praised and criticized for its intimacy. In most cases, it does help pull the audience in to the action, where the set exists out on the thrust as well as behind the main. In other cases, it can be a pain to block and to light. Luckily, we have pretty good lighting positions — you just have to be mindful that standard McCandless doesn't really translate without a few adjustments. I usually do a warm/cool front light plot with LED sides which I either for color and toning. A grid above our thrust is great for specials, moving lights, or upstage/platform areas.
 
Having spent decades in a space with a very deep (29' from main curtain) pit/apron, my thought is to not do this configuration as a standard design. Having a large orchestral pit is useful, it just becomes a huge nuisance as a playing area unless the area above is considered part of the technical stage space with appropriate rigging and lighting.

Ours isn't, it's a solid acoustical ceiling essentially. Thus my back light is a shallow angle 1 Electric. No overhead lighting at all and if an event chooses to use the pit at same level as stage, PLUS play the stage, it's a huge problem for lighting.

As well, we frequently deal with artists that want the use of the main curtain, yet also want to play the pit and cannot comprehend that the main curtain, being so far upstage, does not function as a main. What they really want is a main DS at the pit edge. They cannot understand how you can "reveal" with a blackout and lighting.

So I'd kill for a stage with a 7-8 ft. apron only, then everything up onstage behind the main.
 
I still not understanding why having 12' in front of a curtain - that is maybe 6-7' us of plaster line - is any different than pushing it all in front of plaster line and main curtain. It seems like so much space in front of main that is hard or difficult to light and have scenery on is a negative. But then I'm all about the plays.
I have about 7 plays or musicals a year on my stage depending on the number of feeder schools that come in. I have at least double that in talent shows, parent nights with panel discussions, awards and graduations, poetry slams with a DJ on stage (believe it or not), and class presentations of various types. All of these make extensive use of the apron. There have been many times that I have wished it was 13' deep all the way across, rather than tapered in the corners.

Yes you can't put a set out there. Yes it means exposed lights (nobody ever complains about the lights). But we use it ALL the time. And when it is play time we use it a lot to cover set changes.
 
Plays were only a small part of what my high school theater was used for. Probably 3/4 of the events in the theater were in front of the main curtain. The 10-12 feet was plenty of space for a speaker, awards ceremony, or small choir. Also our sets were usually built on the stage since most of our already small shop space was used to store standard flats and platforms. So being able to close the main curtain and easily cover all that ugliness up was great.
 

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