Fresnel Help, and LED Replacement Suggestions

Hi Guys,
I know there has been allot of talk around the lighting world for a while now about LED fixtures.
Well after going through some of our existing Fresnels I am noticing allot of old wiring that I am having to repair.
I also saw that new retrofit product from vision smith. Unfortunately our fresnels are the BTR/BTR sockets which that wouldn`t necessarily work.
With the older fixtures wiring having to be repaired due to old wiring and safety reasons, I am looking at 2 options, either replace the fixtures outright either with a DMX 7 color LED Fresnel, or a White LED non DMX Fresnel that can plug into one of our existing dimmers, or some other retrofit like the visionsmith. It might be more cost effective in the short term to do a retrofit and replace the wiring in our existing fixtures but I am not sure.
We primarily use the fresnels as overhead color Wash's and are 1K fixtures.
We are running on a limited budget, as its an old theater and have other building issues as well as stage issues were trying to deal with, while at the same time, the lighting is moving up the list as becoming more of a safety issue.
I say the 7 color LEDs, as a full replacement option, as I was at a conference where I saw ETC source 4 7 color wash's and was impressed with the color mixing., However it would mean a complete overhall, including switching our dimmers out to non dims, plugs, dmx cable runs as well as a dmx splitter, which is something I don`t think we can afford.
Was hoping some one here could recommend some products or solutions for us to look into,
Also On a side note replacing some of the sockets can some one here tell me the size of screw they use to mount the socket to the sliding tray. I have new sockets but unfortunatly the mounting screws are damaged and can`t find replacements anywhere. Howvere I am told they are smaller than a 4 30 fine thread?. Were using an strand medium flood prefocused fresnel.
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated,
Thanks,
soundguy99

Fixing wiring on a fixture versus converting to color mixing LED is like comparing a ford fiesta to a Bugatti. Find out what money the theatre has for you to spend in the next 6-12 months and that's what you got. If a conversion is in the future my view point for low budget groups is stretch what you got now as far down the road as you can. Good LED will only get cheaper. Start the discussion with the powers that be that they should start thinking about a lighting overhaul in the next 5-10 years and start planning for it financially.

I don't know about the LEDs as we rewired all our fresnels 7 years ago. I remember the screw issue, and ended up cleaning the old screws really well, because they damaged the brass threaded sleeve in the new sockets if they didn't thread in smoothly.

Now looking at LED to replace those.

Believe me I understand about putting a band aid on the problem isn`t going to solve it, but looking at these old fixtures with the wiring corroded and falling off the terminals, In the mean time it the best we can do.
Would it be nice to do a complete overhaul, yes but we don`t have 100K. and to switch to LED that would mean switching out our 10 year old dimmers to Non Dim, adapter AC on all of our electrics, an Optical Splitter for Separate DMX chains to each or our pipes, cabling including AC and thats all on top of the LED fixtures themselves. Something we can`t just do at this point. However we can`t leave some of those older fixtures in there either in the condition they are in.
Now Aaron for you comment

Aaron Clarke said:

Good LED will only get cheaper

Click to expand...

Heres my Answer to that: "Price Points don`t change Technology Does". Let me explain, being around technology for as long as I have, I have noticed something, Weather its home electronics, computers, or Production Gear, Buying a Premium product (leading trend) today, you will always pay a premium for. Buying a current Trend product is at another Price point. and Finally Buying an older product will always be at a discounted Price. Now products come and go, and as newer products come on to the market, they will pass through each of those price points, from premium to current, to discount, each time. So products currently trending right now, at one time we paid a premium for, and a current product 1 or 2 years from now will be at a discounted price. My point is although the product appears to get cheaper, it really doesen`t, the only reason a specific product gets cheaper is because it becomes old and eventually obsolete. I don`t know about you, but personally especially with electronics I find that once you start buying out of date products, just because they are cheaper, you don`t get any return back on your investment and you find yourself always having to replace them, sometime sooner than you want, when you don`t have the money.
Sorry if thats sounds a bit aggressive but my GM always uses that argument with me, and I always think of it as a repeatable excuse to put off dealing with a problem to a later day that will never come, only to reuse that excuse again. It Drives me nuts.
So back to this LED thing, Like I said we can`t afford a complete overhaul right now, and yet I can`t let those fixtures stay in that condition, for 5 - 10 years, due to a number of reasons much less a safety hazard due to electrical fire. So I need another option.
Hence asking for something that I can get on a cheaper scale that would work with our existing system (dimmer), that would replace the older potentially more dangerous fixtures. The idea being spend a small amount now, to save for a much large investment later, where we can look at current trends making an investment that will last for the next years to come.
One question, if we were looking at a retrofit option like the visionsmith, would I still need to change out my AC, and in either case would I see a power savings as it wouldn`t drawn as much power from my dimmers.
Youre are obviously going to see a saving not having to buy bulbs but I don`t know about the power consumption itself.
Again thanks for the comments, and I apologize for the rant.
Thanks,
Soundguy

So it sounds like an immediate upgrade is not on the table but something you need to get the money people planning for. How you go from here I would say largely depends on the time frame for full overhaul so you may want o get a ball park before moving forward.

In the meantime you have basically two options.

1) Fix the existing fixture or
2) Replace fixtures

For option 1 it be helpful to know exactly what fixture and exactly what is wrong. If a full upgrade is only a few years away I'm sure the members here can help address how to fix the specific concerns you have. Fixing what you have is the best solution if a full upgrade is near. Also, if you truly have a fire risk, you will need to do it ASAP or take the fixtures out of service regardless of what you do. If you truly have to put fixtures out of service see if you can scrap up some used fixtures at reasonable price to hold you over.

I'm going say it right out I don't think using a LED conversion on your existing fixtures is the right solution in any case. Your fixtures sound like they need re-wired either way, and if that's the case you have to ask what are you getting out of adding LED? Unless you're looking at 10-20 years before they are put out of service I don't think you will see any savings with going LED. Also, if the fixtures are in as bad of shape as you hint at you're going to have a expensive light source in a fixture that is on its last leg.

Option 2 can go a few ways.

-You can replace with conventional fixtures, new or used. This will get you the most life out of your money IMO. There is nothing wrong with conventional when the infrastructure already exists. This pushes back the most money to spend later.

-Replace with LED fixtures that are dimmable on dimmers but can convert to DMX down the road

-Replace with top of the line color mixing LED and rig together the power and DMX you need.


In the real world you're probably looking at a hybrid of all of the above.

First, how much money do you have an when
Second, how many fixtures can you reasonably save.
Third, now that you know what NEEDS replaced and how much money you have, and when more money will come, you can decide what's next.

If you need to replace 10 fixtures with $1000- your probably buying used.
If you only need to replace 2-3 fixtures and you are given $1500 now, plus $1500 extra a season, you can start a slow transition to LED


As for my LED will only get cheaper comment. I completely agree, but I'm talking apples to apples. It will be less costly to get the same quality of light/fixture that is considered top end today in 10 years. Of course there is always advances but I feel that true theatre quality lighting is what is offered on the top end right now. A low budget outfit will likely never have top end. So by giving it a few years you will get the same quality without spending the top of the line price scale.

The only correct solution is the one you choose. There any many directions to go and none of them are wrong. Money will be your deciding factor.

Aaron,
Youre right the full replacement is not on the table right now, and to be honest you can`t even call it a full replacement, because our front of house fixtures and dimmers are less that 10 years old, and are conventional, so I don`t need to change those.
The main ones I need to change are about the stage for color wash's. Could I replace with other conventional fixtures maybe, although, the idea of an led where I don`t have to replace bulbs, and save money in the meantime, sound better if its possible.
Also I can always take out the LED's and either re sell them or use them some where else on my rig as I make the complete conversion.
Ideally Replacing with dimmable led fixtures is the option I was wanting to go with all along, and the reason I posted this post. I am just not familiar enough with all of the new led products coming on to the market, things are moving so fast its a bit tricky to keep up with everything, so I was looking for suggestions.
As for repairing them I do realize that especially on a larger scale (ie 20 fixtures or more as an example), and me and managment have talked about that very thing. At some point the cost to repair them in terms of parts and labor is just as much as replacing the fixture. I just happen to have bran new bulb sockets left over from the old stage manager, that I thought I would make use of in the mean time.
With everything else going on in the building, I am trying to find those products/solutions, that are financially reasonable enough that when presented to management they might just be motivated enough to approve it.
Its not an easy battle, as I am sure many other people who work in theater can attest to. As a technical person who cares, I see the electrical wiring, the safety issues, and all of the other technical problems, but in order to get any moment on dealing with any of those things, you need to offer products for reasonable prices and propose it to management in way they won`t get offended by, so it can move up the priority list and actually get done. You have to be careful not to present it as new toys but a necessity I can only think that this is what a lawyer goes through. I know the Technical, I know whats wrong, but I still need to build my case in a way, that I will get a verdict in my favor..lol
The only good thing out of this, is that they have seen some of these fixtures, and starting to recognize the comments I have been making for the last few years, so if nothing else its starting the conversation.
I am now trying to back up that discussion up with product research and practical solutions, so it doesn`t get put on the back burner and move back down the priority list again.
Please keep in mind they also just went through this 10 years ago when they did another lighting upgrade to get a dimmer system, new FOH lights and a new console, so considering all other the other priorities, (being mechanical, electrical, physical, and even audio), its a tough sell to ask them to do another major overhaul to the lights when other priorities have waited allot long to be completed.
In saying that, as I have experienced, if you are smart,do your home work and are reasonable about the price, I think you can buy quality products that are slightly "trending leading" with out paying a premium for it, and will give you a better and longer return on your investment, which is why I am reading and posting on here and other places.
But in the meantime, I agree an led that can plug into an existing dimmer outlet would be a great solution, and if it has the optional DMX, even better. I could run 3 or 5 pin dmx from my console as I am running Cat 5 from it for my fixtures right now, leaving me 2 5 pin dmx universes left over. I don`t necessarily need to run an optical spliter, even though it would save me on cables. I think the bigger issues is not to have to convert my dimmers over to non dims if I don`t have to.
So if you guys can recommend some products for me to look into that would be much appreciated,
My only thought is I would like to have a lense type fixture. From the ones that I have seen I feel they have a smoother wash light. Also our trim for our lights is 26 feet above the stage floor, if youre thinking about brightness.
Thanks again for any and all help,
Soundguy

I feel your struggle. I just recently got back into the lighting game after taking 10+ years off...I feel like it has been 100. The theatre I'm working with is rounding time for some upgrades as well so I've spend a few months read, talking and asking.

Here is the knowledge I can throw your way that I've learned. Talking to some friends that work at a top theatre lighting company with three letters start with a vowel here's the information I can offer.

I'd steer clear of trying use "long term $$ savings by converting to LED" to justify any purchases. Right now LED fixture cost is high enough that it will offset the savings compared to conventional fixtures. ETC even admits to this in their own white paper regarding LED lighting in theatres. Savings right now for LED primarily comes from reduced infrastructure costs, not energy or bulbs. The only real reason to use the word "savings" to sell an upgrade is if a grant or loan relating to energy use reduction can be used to help fund the conversion. This is the way a number of schools and non-profits are funding lighting system upgrades. You're are welcome to use the cash savings argument if you want, (I won't tell) but if your financial people are real number crunchers or do their own homework they may find out there won't be a significant cost savings and you might lost some cred.

That said, I don't want my previous comments to sound like I'm saying 'Don't go LED'. If you can swing it financially, even if it means taking longer to get you where you want to be, go for it. I'd approach it like I approach spending on my own things: Don't settle for the thing you don't want just to save a few bucks, you'll never be happy. Be patient and get what you really want.

I personally would skip conversion of existing fixture all together and take that off the table. I think you're just asking for trouble in the long run and you'll never be happy about it. Also, I doubt you would see much re-sale value down the road in a converted fixture. I'm going to say buy new so you have something reliable that will last.

I don't have much suggestions on an actual LED option for replacing a 1k fixture. The theater I work with sits at about 18' trim and right now my vote for us would be the ETC Colorsource Par. I know I'd get the intensity I want from that without seeing it. You though may want get a short list together of fixtures and see if a demo can be arranged in your space. In regards to power, the nice thing with powercon in/out is you only need one or two constant power feeds so depending on your dimmer system it would probably be simple and not too costly to throw a relay or constant module in. For our sensor rack I would just swap one module, giving me two circuits, out on each electric and that would cover our basic wash). Or even have some constant outlets installed and run some SO to the pipe. With DMX, a reasonable DMX splitter and some cable would get you running. May not be pretty or perfect looking but it would work.

The other thing to think about is control. Would your current board handle these fixtures in a way that your programmers/designers/operators could use them to full capability. The shows at the community theatre I work at is almost all ran by amateurs and I noticed right away that expanding much beyond where we are now (icues and color scrollers) would be above their head without a lot of training.

If you want some strong suggestions for fixtures I'd suggest posting a new thread just on that AND searching existing. I recall some good recent discussions up this alley. This thread may be too broad in original posting to really get the attention of the people that would have suggestions.