Design Another hypothetical for all the lighting guys

JonCarter

Well-Known Member
OK, all you lighting guys, here's another hypothetical for you:

You've been employed to design the electrical system for a new theatre. The facility is now under design and planned for completion and opening will be 01 JAN 2020. The plant is to be a 500-600 seat proscenium facility, and according to the architect, tentative lighting positions will be two ceiling coves (one of which will have space for arcs & their operators--which one?), two side-of-house positions on each side of the house, a light bridge just upstage of the P/L, 3 upstage electrics, a cyc electric ~6' DS of the back wall, a cyc light pit also 6' DS of the back wall, and 3 or 4 lighting connection positions on each of SR & SL stage house side walls (or floor pockets) for towers, floor units, or whateve the future LD calls for. (You will have the architect's ear and can modify this if you want.) You may plan as many circuits at each location as you like. There will be a projection/light/sound booth at the back of the house with room for, say, 3 arcs, projection equipment and control equipment for lighting and sound. Now., the GOOD PART. You have NO BUDGET to design this--dream big. Would you:

1) Plan a "traditional" system, with dimmers located (in a dimmer room somewhere--don't worry about that) and dimmed circuits up the yingyang provided at all locations, OR,

2) A "DMX-controlled system, with constant power (both 120V and 240/208V) available in quantity at all locations with DMX control circuits a\vailable at all locations in quantity such that daisy chain limitations are of no concern, OR,

3) A mixture of dimmer-controlled circuits AND constant power (both 120V and 240/208V) available in quantity at all locations with DMX control circuits a\vailable at all locations in quantity such that daisy chain limitations are of no concern at each location..

Now, which would you choose and why would you choose it? Or, what would you add/subtract form this, and why?
 
Depends on users. If it's a high school, I strongly lean towards distributing relay controlled power and data. I find 4 to 6 circuits per electric is probably adequate. I'd prefer to keep distro to minimal cost and spend the available funds on fixtures.

For most projects, I find the hybrid systems difficult to justify in new build, because they have all the costs if both - large feeds, many circuits, many receptacles, high cooling loads, dimmer rooms, fibreglass borders, etc.

University level - depends on program. Professional - probably still necessary to maintain quartz capabilities - at least today. Not for long is my guess. And if all new, I'd propose solo dimmers at the quartz lights so still just relay power and data.
 
OK, all you lighting guys, here's another hypothetical for you:

You've been employed to design the electrical system for a new theatre. The facility is now under design and planned for completion and opening will be 01 JAN 2020. The plant is to be a 500-600 seat proscenium facility, and according to the architect, tentative lighting positions will be two ceiling coves (one of which will have space for arcs & their operators--which one?), two side-of-house positions on each side of the house, a light bridge just upstage of the P/L, 3 upstage electrics, a cyc electric ~6' DS of the back wall, a cyc light pit also 6' DS of the back wall, and 3 or 4 lighting connection positions on each of SR & SL stage house side walls (or floor pockets) for towers, floor units, or whateve the future LD calls for. (You will have the architect's ear and can modify this if you want.) You may plan as many circuits at each location as you like. There will be a projection/light/sound booth at the back of the house with room for, say, 3 arcs, projection equipment and control equipment for lighting and sound. Now., the GOOD PART. You have NO BUDGET to design this--dream big. Would you:

1) Plan a "traditional" system, with dimmers located (in a dimmer room somewhere--don't worry about that) and dimmed circuits up the yingyang provided at all locations, OR,

2) A "DMX-controlled system, with constant power (both 120V and 240/208V) available in quantity at all locations with DMX control circuits a\vailable at all locations in quantity such that daisy chain limitations are of no concern, OR,

3) A mixture of dimmer-controlled circuits AND constant power (both 120V and 240/208V) available in quantity at all locations with DMX control circuits a\vailable at all locations in quantity such that daisy chain limitations are of no concern at each location..

Now, which would you choose and why would you choose it? Or, what would you add/subtract form this, and why?
Everything you just said, really dates you... No offense... ;-)

I assume when you say "Arcs" you mean followspots. I don't think anyone has designed a theatre with a "cyc electric" or a "cyc pit" in decades. Half out membership probably has never seen either, and I certainly wouldn't design a modern theatre with them today.

With an opening date of 2020, I would spec most of the system in today's LED fixtures. Given the price point today and the fact that they are becoming more affordable, by the time you are actually ready to buy, you can probably get something newer, better and less expensive. I would play about 80/20 LED to conventional. I would probably put a single, 96 dimmer dimmer rack in and then a mixture of relay and constant power throughout the space.

Assuming that you are building a theatre with a fly loft, I wouldn't insall any dedicated electrics with raceways. I would divide up the overhead circuits into mults that can be dropped from the grid. I would terminate the mults in 19-pin socapex connectors and have drop-boxes that mate. This would allow you to easily make any batten an electric as needed by the design. While slinging mult every show can be a bummer, it is a lot more of a bummer to have to cable across from a dedicated raceway. I would include at least 3-4 wall boxes/floor pockets on each side of the stage, each would get stage pin and a parallel socapaex connection.

I would make sure that there are multiple 208v circuits available in any location you may want to put a followspot. Having 208v around is useful and it can easily be broken out to multiple 120v circuits if needed. IN any case, it is better to pull the copper during construction rather than discovering you want it later as a retrofit. You can never have too much power, you only pay for what you use!

One of the most important things though is getting in the correct network infrastructure. Every new lighting desk operates on a network, and you really want that network to be separate from the building LAN (and probably also from sound). I would want the primary processing and distribution rack to live in the booth. Rack would house console CPU/backup unit, main network switch gear, and probably POE injectors. If housing a CPU for the system, it should also have KVM in the rack. I would then send network drops anywhere I could think of in the theatre, probably two-port boxes in every location. I would make sure that there are drops in each FOH position, box booms, coves, upstage and downstage on each side of the stage, and a few in the grid. I would make sure to get network runs to wherever my office was going to be, and the tech-table position in the house. I may also include some in the back of the house. I would put a satellite distribution rack on the grid with UPS, network switch, and possibly a rackmount DMX gateway. Generally I would opt for portable gateways and just drop network cable and hang gateways as needed. Also included in the lighting network package, I would opt for enterprise class wireless equipment. Something like the Ubiquiti Unifi system with access points placed as needed throughout the space.
 
As a simple answer, I don't think I'd put a dimmer anywhere, unless I had incandescents as part of a separate recital configuration needed.

I'd put DMX controlled relay's everywhere and if I had incandescent S4's I'd equip each one with an ETC S4 dimmer, plus a bunch of spares.

Then obviously a complete inventory of color changing capable LED's in all types, ellipsoidals, Pars, as well as moving wash and moving profiles.

And a ton and more of Ethernet and DMX gateways.
 
I would still put in a dozen or so dimmed circuits, for the occasional practical, Christmas lights, etc. I think the Sensor3 rack with some relay modules was a good suggestion.
And while the need for 240/208 is disappearing, perhaps plan for a 3 phase disconnect. So should you ever rent anything 'old fashioned' you can rent the power distribution to go with it.

Also dont forget houselights. If you're sticking with incandescent you'll need dimmers for those. Or preferably spec some DMX fixtures with good low end dimming.
 
The guy from Tait wins for spending the most money.

The question of central or distributed DMX nodes is an interesting one. I've gone back to putting DMX nodes in a rack, and running DMX on Cat5 to lighting positions. I also distribute a fair number of network taps, and do the console on ethernet. The advantage for centralized DMX nodes besides significant cost savings is configuration and servicing over their lifetime. Much easier to do that in one clean, comfortable, floor level environment than off a catwalk or lift in many places. And if you want more net than I provided or newer technology demands it, simple upgrade since pipe, wire, and boxes are there.

Rob - put in a dozen or so portable dimmers and save the dedicated circuits. More flexible and lower cost. and as far as house lights, hard not t o do LED for simply the relamping issue. I refuse to put incandescent where it can't be accessed easily for last minute relamps and the cost of that access is usually way more than the initial cost of LED.

And don't forget the user. A typical band director or drama teacher in a high school is not going to be able to use a lot of what we might like as technicians - not the training nor the time.

Last - most of my projects have an electric dedicated for sky drop lighting. Only have designed two cyc light pits, and one fell to budget and got a 1/4 round ground row.

I also question the racks with switches and UPSs and such being in the control room. Too often they make noise - if not initially then later. And why would you want to not allow a piece of gear to be integrated because it had a fan? I find a separate room that has convenient access desirable. Can be in the same room with av racks in some cases.

Still have to know the user to know what makes sense.
 
The guy from Tait wins for spending the most money.
Just remeber I spent 10 years as a regional theatre ME (thats non-profit). I know what it is like to scrape by, but let me tell you, I wasn't going to back down when it was my turn to get capital for a new lighting system there, and I am glad I didn't because they spent four times as much on the new sound system... (and they pinched every penny on my system, I was lucky that I got what I asked for, and I had to do half the install myself)
 
Everything you just said, really dates you... No offense... ;-)

I don't think anyone has designed a theatre with a "cyc electric" or a "cyc pit" in decades. Half out membership probably has never seen either, and I certainly wouldn't design a modern theatre with them today.

Not sure what you have against cyc pits and cyc electrics ( unless we are talking about different things). In virtually every house I have every worked in which has it's own equipment, we know where the cyc is going to be ( as far upstage as we can get it). We know based on our fixtures where the top lights want to be ( sure this can change - so drop boxes are not necessarily a bad idea, but it still functions as a cyc ellectric ).

As for cyc pit - you like always having to have a ground row? Using today's fixtures, putting an upstage pit that is ( say ) 1-6 deep and 3 feet front to back does not add much cost, and makes lighting the bottom of the cyc a lot easier. ( and with pit covers - it does not restrict your options).

Can you elaborate?
 
Not sure what you have against cyc pits and cyc electrics ( unless we are talking about different things). In virtually every house I have every worked in which has it's own equipment, we know where the cyc is going to be ( as far upstage as we can get it). We know based on our fixtures where the top lights want to be ( sure this can change - so drop boxes are not necessarily a bad idea, but it still functions as a cyc ellectric ).

As for cyc pit - you like always having to have a ground row? Using today's fixtures, putting an upstage pit that is ( say ) 1-6 deep and 3 feet front to back does not add much cost, and makes lighting the bottom of the cyc a lot easier. ( and with pit covers - it does not restrict your options).

Can you elaborate?
In what working theatre is the cyc ALWAYS in the same place? That is amazingly limiting. What if you are doing a small show and want the scenery further downstage? What about "wing and drop" shows with multiple drops on various linesets? Ultimately, its the same reason I wouldn't install dedicated raceways. It is inevitable that the designers will do whatever they want and generally ignore the "house positions," which ultimately makes having house positions more hassle than they are worth. I mean, if you are hanging a rep plot with softgoods that never change, that may be different.
 
In what working theatre is the cyc ALWAYS in the same place? That is amazingly limiting. What if you are doing a small show and want the scenery further downstage? What about "wing and drop" shows with multiple drops on various linesets? Ultimately, its the same reason I wouldn't install dedicated raceways. It is inevitable that the designers will do whatever they want and generally ignore the "house positions," which ultimately makes having house positions more hassle than they are worth. I mean, if you are hanging a rep plot with softgoods that never change, that may be different.

I would say we very infrequently move our cyc. This is a 2400 seat road house and will strike the cyc when a tour needs the pipe for painted drops. If an event needs a cyc, ours gets used and on the standard pipe. Partly because the electric and MR16's that light the cyc have the units focused for the cyc at that position.
 
Type/programming of facility? Who operates it?

I will say I _hate_ floor pockets. They're never where you need them to be/have the right combination of circuits/etc. Can't put a floor over them (dance or show deck) and still use them.
 
Type/programming of facility? Who operates it?

I will say I _hate_ floor pockets. They're never where you need them to be/have the right combination of circuits/etc. Can't put a floor over them (dance or show deck) and still use them.
I agree. I think that in several theaters I worked in early on they were always full of water had an influence - but I hate what they do to wagons and feet. I try to do drop boxes from a gallery above.

Made up electrics versus fixed depends on the users and uses. Regional professional theatre and b-way style road houses - made up probably. High school or university without a theatre program - fixed seems desirable. I don't think the hs band director is going to move electrics nor has the rigging skill and lighting skills necessary to do it.
 
In what working theatre is the cyc ALWAYS in the same place? That is amazingly limiting. What if you are doing a small show and want the scenery further downstage? What about "wing and drop" shows with multiple drops on various linesets? Ultimately, its the same reason I wouldn't install dedicated raceways. It is inevitable that the designers will do whatever they want and generally ignore the "house positions," which ultimately makes having house positions more hassle than they are worth. I mean, if you are hanging a rep plot with softgoods that never change, that may be different.

At the heart of this is the fundamental question: What kind of theater is this going to be and which types of events will be hosted here?

Both for academic theater and for smaller roadhouses, my experience is that dedicated electrics are safer and reduce overhead by streamlining turnaround time between shows. The flexibility of anything-can-go-anywhere-anytime is great for regional/rep theaters and higher-tier university programs or roadhouses where a 6-truck show will park for 3 weeks. That flexibility comes with a higher price tag though and puts a heavier burden on staffing, storage, and operating costs. It means more time and people required for shlepping bricks, more crew needed for load-ins and load-outs, more cables swinging in the air for things to get caught on, requires a walkable grid --- none of which is immovable when its the appropriate solution for the project -- but when it's not, now you've just hampered an organization by requiring them to spend an extra $50k every year on add'l staffing for turnarounds between events.

I've seen a lot of 5- or 6-electric shows adapt to a 4-electric house system without missing a beat, or where the house system does the heavy lifting and a couple drop boxes supplement it on other battens. Usually the only ones to complain are the LD's where the ball got dropped somewhere along the way on the advance work and they were caught by surprise the day-of.

There are many flavors of theaters and of theatre-with-an-"re" out there. One size doth not fit all.
 
I would say we very infrequently move our cyc. This is a 2400 seat road house and will strike the cyc when a tour needs the pipe for painted drops. If an event needs a cyc, ours gets used and on the standard pipe. Partly because the electric and MR16's that light the cyc have the units focused for the cyc at that position.

And I won't let anyone move or strike our cyc... so it is always where it is. Its the only soft good that no one gets to touch.
 

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