ETCnet resources?

Georgeous

Georgeous

Member
Hi everybody,

So for the last week or so, I have been working on trying to get ETCnet installed in my high school's theater. I understand that it is a long shot, but either way I would really just like to know more about how it works. I understand that it is basically a private network. I guess I just want to know if there are resources out there for like where to put a node, how big my switch should be, and how to set it up to work on an Element.

Sorry if this is confusing,
George
 
Well... it depends. You are correct in that it can be a private network, it also SHOULD be a private network, but it essentially follows the standard rules of networking. We'll need a little more information to provide more information than the Google... What are you trying to do with your network, do you have network devices that you're setting up are you simply operating DMX out of a node instead of a hardline DMX? Since you're using an Element your two universes don't really require a node setup...

my best suggestion would be to work with your school's IT department and computer sciences teacher to learn about basic network mapping and network infrastructure... there are a lot more questions here than answers at this point.
 
So the goal is that we can run cat-5 everywhere through the theater, because currently we can only run things from front of house. We have no way of running lights from side of stage or running cyc lights without running 300' of dmx which we rent for every show. I was hoping to run from the Element to a switch and front the switch I was going to split it 5 ways and then place gateways. I thought that by doing this I could have more places to connect lights into the system. I have a basic understanding of networking, but I'm confused by if the ETCnet works just like dmx in that I can run straight to my dimmer rack (EDI MX) and just convert it from cat-5 back to dmx right before it gets to the rack.
 
Georgeous said:
So the goal is that we can run cat-5 everywhere through the theater, because currently we can only run things from front of house. We have no way of running lights from side of stage or running cyc lights without running 300' of dmx which we rent for every show. I was hoping to run from the Element to a switch and front the switch I was going to split it 5 ways and then place gateways. I thought that by doing this I could have more places to connect lights into the system.
Click to expand...

I think you're headed in the right direction with your idea... Some thoughts on the matter:
DMX can run natively over Cat5e (not to be confused with TCP/IP!!). You could run Cat5e from FOH to the stage and put an opto-splitter at the front of the stage (just terminate the cat5 with dmx ends, maybe a couple of DMX wall plates). The only small downside to this is that there is no RDM when you do this, because of the splitter, not the cable.

Georgeous said:
but I'm confused by if the ETCnet works just like dmx in that I can run straight to my dimmer rack (EDI MX) and just convert it from cat-5 back to dmx right before it gets to the rack.
Click to expand...

ETC Net3is network protocol, not DMX. It works by basically converting DMX to net3 (or net2 or whatever) back to DMX. The conversion is less of a hardware conversion and more of a protocol conversion (because like I said, you can run DMX over cat5e, but Net3, etc., is TCP/IP).
 
ETCNet is a name for ETC's networking protocol. Net3, which is what all the Eos family devices speak, is an IP based protocol that uses sACN and some proprietary packets. In terms of physical networking, the topology and equipment required is no different than any home or business network. All devices on the network should be connected via ethernet switches and/or routers, all devices use Cat5e (or better) cable with RJ-45 connectors for interconnection, and all devices should be given unique IP addresses within the same broadcast network.

So, now your head is spinning from lots of terms you don't really understand... In laymans terms:
The central part of your network is going to be a network switch. I would suggest something with more ports than you think you need, and probably one that can supply POE (power over ethernet) to all or some of the ports. I would also suggest an "unmanaged" switch as it won't require any programming. From the switch, I would make a series of home-runs of Cat5e (or better) cable around the theatre. I would terminate them in wall boxes, possibly with etherCON connectors. When you run cable through the building, keep in mind that the spec on standard networking is 100M (300ft) between devices. Also keep in mind that your cable likely should be run in cable trays or conduit, not just strung willy-nilly through the space.

There are very few devices that currently speak sACN natively, so for most things you will need a gateway (or node) that can translate sACN to DMX. You can of course use those made by ETC, but you can also use third party devices like from Pathway Connectivity. You will need nodes anywhere you want to connect DMX devices to your system, so you will need a node to connect to your dimmers.

Generally, on a show network I would assign each device a static IP address so that I know exactly who each device is. Most of these devices support DHCP, and your console can act as a DHCP server if you prefer. As long as you set IP addresses and subnet masks that allow all the devices to talk to eachother, you should be good to go.
 
Do you have a need for a flexible setup that is not currently available to your space? Typically in most system designs there is a DMX hookup on the stage and in your control booth, but it's sounding like that may not be your case. Having an Element I'm making a general assumption that you don't have a lot of intelligent fixtures which lends to thinking that you don't need that complicated of a setup... also definitely buy the DMX cable, you can buy it outright or buy the raw materials and eliminate that issue straight off.

I think you would benefit from a system analysis and a consultant. Instead of jumping straight to flashy tech, determine your needs vs your current capacity and then determine how best to invest your time and money.
 
So, I have two consultant...kinda. I go to a school where the theater was updated 18 years ago and so they think that it will last until 2030, without putting any money into, last year our dimmer rack died two days before a show and now we are in the slow process of trying to update things. This past May, we purchased four Rogue R2 washes and are in the process of trying to buy SolaSpots. We were gonna buy Mac 700's but they require a lot of maintenance and because we don't have a tech theater program and I am a Senior, we will not have people to maintenance them constantly. The goal, as I said before, is to basically be able to place lights anywhere. I was gonna buy a Pathport Octo, and run dmx everywhere, but I kinda got swept up in the idea of ETCnet (oops). Would you recommend, running cat-5e everywhere from the booth, but keeping the Octo in the booth and creating a DMX patch panel?
 
Georgeous said:
Would you recommend, running cat-5e everywhere from the booth, but keeping the Octo in the booth and creating a DMX patch panel?
Click to expand...

I guess that's user's preference. The benefit of having a splitter near stage typically means less cable. However, if you've got Cat5e in bulk, you can do several home-runs just as @icewolf08 suggest. This might be a better idea since they could possibly be used for Net3 further down the line.
 
The "placing lights anywhere" is I think what's tripping you up. Is it the case that you have no DMX in your space? You may be trying to put a band-aid on a broken leg. Don't worry we've all been in the place of being asked to do more without spending money, at some point you breach the tipping point of spending money on work arounds and shortcuts when you're actually looking at more of a capital project and system overhaul. 30 years is unrealistic in any infrastructure plan including schools. You can present that in a way that will make fiscal sense to the appropriate parties. You may still need a band-aid to get you by.

Our house was wired with one universe which is annoying... but our second universe is one line of dmx from the booth to an opto on the back of the proscenium wall and then a DMX line to each of our electrics, which allowed us to expand our plot options and remain flexible. You could do that with Cat5e too... but I don't typically recommend going the network route with a console smaller than an ION, you're going to run out of useable DMX space before getting a return investment on your peripherals.

And don't be discouraged, the Net3 world of things is very exciting and if you can gain advanced skills and knowledge in that area you can quickly become in high demand and have a lengthy career in the field. I highly recommend that as a career track if it interests you, it's a very cool and specialized area of our world. You get to take the nerdy computer science and kick it's butt with art.... a pretty cool job description if you ask me...
 
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I notice the school is spending a fair bit of money on fixtures and contemplating quite a bit more for multiple gateways. But you are renting portable DMX cable?

Be aware that DMX wants to run on a shielded Cat5-6 cable. It can also do far longer runs than ethernet, which maxes out at 300'.

If you really want to put DMX anywhere at any given time, rather than everywhere simultaneously, you might look at wireless. Staying in the ETC family, a ColorSource relay or two would do wonders for your space.
 
Thank you! All of this information was very helpful. I will work on a more overhaul solution a present it to the school board with the hopes that it gets approved. I have tried the wireless ColorSource relay, there is too much interference and it just gets angry. I have has minimal luck with the Showbaby's, but I am trying to keep it all wired because its just safer. We spend roughly $20,000 on fixture rentals a year and so convincing the school to buy lights is a lot easier than convincing them to overhaul the entire auditorium.

On another note, is there a way to read more about ETCnet? I looked around google, but didn't really find anything, if not ETCnet, just sACN in general
Thanks.
 
Georgeous said:
Would you recommend, running cat-5e everywhere from the booth, but keeping the Octo in the booth and creating a DMX patch panel?
Click to expand...
Our Octo is the most economical Pathport per port. The Quattro has the advantage of putting four ports anywhere on one PoE cable (no power source needed) and still boasts a front panel display to configure remotely. Putting the Octo in the booth is a viable option. Then install modular jacks around the theatre wired permanently with category 5 wire and patch into them as needed. You likely would put in more than eight and just use up to eight but have the versatility on different gigs.

Georgeous said:
On another note, is there a way to read more about ETCnet? I looked around google, but didn't really find anything, if not ETCnet, just sACN in general
Click to expand...
The Wikipedia topic on ACN only talks briefly about sACN. We have a few reference articles on network protocols on our web site. Specifically Lighting Controls Protocols Part 1 and 2 and Lighting Networks 101. Remember, as stated by:
icewolf08 said:
ETCNet is a name for ETC's networking protocol. Net3, which is what all the Eos family devices speak, is an IP based protocol that uses sACN and some proprietary packets.
Click to expand...
That means any desk that speaks sACN will work with an ETC gateway. Likewise anybody's gateway that listens to sACN will hear an ETC console. That's the beauty of standards.

One thing that is very cools about sACN is that on a per source and per universe basis, you can put a priority on the wire. For instance, an architectural controller can be live 24/7 at priority 99 and yield to a theatrical console that comes on every day at 7PM with a priority of 100. Pathport gateways can arbitrate between the sources and crossfade subtly rather than slamming the place into darkness when the console comes on and its GM is down.
 
MRW Lights said:
but I don't typically recommend going the network route with a console smaller than an ION, you're going to run out of useable DMX space before getting a return investment on your peripherals.
Click to expand...

My curiosity is piqued... How do you calculate ROI on peripherals? I'm confused as how you make them pay for themselves. I'd love to hear an expanded thought on this.

Also, if you run out of a channels, it's easier to say "Our current console does not meet our needs. We need a new one." Rather than saying, "I want to install a network so I need a new console." I don't think there's anything wrong with building a network infrastructure regardless of the limitations of the console. It just means that you're looking into the future.
 
Georgeous said:
I have tried the wireless ColorSource relay, there is too much interference and it just gets angry. I have has minimal luck with the Showbaby's, but I am trying to keep it all wired because its just safer.
Click to expand...

ETC has really great tech support that can help get ColorSource relays working. We (City Theatrical) can also help with the Showbaby if you set one up again. Both systems are compatible, and used in several venues that will likely have a higher rate of spectrum use than in your situation. Both systems are really reliable once set up and working. If you give wireless another try let me know.

The ideas mentioned by the others above are good things to consider as you figure out what you want your system to be. It sounds to me like running straight DMX, instead of sACN, is the better option for your situation. I agree that learning the networking side can make you invaluable, however. As you are a senior I would also advise setting up a system that will be simple and durable enough to be used by your successors. Running DMX cable, instead of running DMX over ethernet will probably be more durable and easier to identify and maintain in the long run. If you go the sACN route I would suggest making sure someone at the staff level is involved so it can be kept running when you graduate.
 
Or if you'd like to try a different wireless system that uses different technology, I'd be happy to loan you a couple of RC4Magic DMXio units for comparison. All RC4Magic wireless DMX and wireless dimming devices come with a Lifetime Warranty, by the way.

Jim
RC4
 
icewolf08 said:
ETCNet is a name for ETC's networking protocol. Net3, which is what all the Eos family devices speak, is an IP based protocol that uses sACN and some proprietary packets. In terms of physical networking, the topology and equipment required is no different than any home or business network. All devices on the network should be connected via ethernet switches and/or routers, all devices use Cat5e (or better) cable with RJ-45 connectors for interconnection, and all devices should be given unique IP addresses within the same broadcast network.

So, now your head is spinning from lots of terms you don't really understand... In laymans terms:
The central part of your network is going to be a network switch. I would suggest something with more ports than you think you need, and probably one that can supply POE (power over ethernet) to all or some of the ports. I would also suggest an "unmanaged" switch as it won't require any programming. From the switch, I would make a series of home-runs of Cat5e (or better) cable around the theatre. I would terminate them in wall boxes, possibly with etherCON connectors. When you run cable through the building, keep in mind that the spec on standard networking is 100M (300ft) between devices. Also keep in mind that your cable likely should be run in cable trays or conduit, not just strung willy-nilly through the space.

There are very few devices that currently speak sACN natively, so for most things you will need a gateway (or node) that can translate sACN to DMX. You can of course use those made by ETC, but you can also use third party devices like from Pathway Connectivity. You will need nodes anywhere you want to connect DMX devices to your system, so you will need a node to connect to your dimmers.

Generally, on a show network I would assign each device a static IP address so that I know exactly who each device is. Most of these devices support DHCP, and your console can act as a DHCP server if you prefer. As long as you set IP addresses and subnet masks that allow all the devices to talk to each other, you should be good to go.
Click to expand...

Pretty much nailed it. :)

I HIGHLY recommend going POE as well. if you have the budget to put multiple cat drops throughout your grid, depending on the size. later on, you can just move a node and not have to worry about power, if you want to change up your lighting. Also, put a switch near the board if you can / if you have the budget for another one. it gives you some more flexibility if you want to use Nomad, add another board in addition to your current rig. Or if an outside vendor wanted to use your setup than you don't have to unplug anything for them to tie in.

If you want to learn about the signal, and what the protocol actually is. not necessarily important as long as everything is speaking the same language. but could help solve potential issues. I highly recommend Show Networks and Control Systems by John Huntington, https://www.amazon.com/dp/0615655904/?tag=controlbooth-20 It touches on pretty much all the protocols, plus MIDI and OSC and a lot of other stuff. It's one of those books I think every LD ought to have. Just my opinion of course. I don't know the guy, I just think it's a great tool to have.

You probably already know this but I don't remember seeing it posted so just in case... A very basic setup would look like cat5 out of the board into a switch, cat5 goes from the switch to the dimmer rack, Cat5 also goes from the switch to a node, 5 or 3 pin dmx comes out from the node into a light.
 
Brentgi said:
My curiosity is piqued... How do you calculate ROI on peripherals? I'm confused as how you make them pay for themselves. I'd love to hear an expanded thought on this.
Click to expand...

ROI might not be the best term, but try this. Savings in ongoing labor with a network would include less set-up and maintenance due mostly to the flexibility of the ports. Any network jack can be an input or output, any DMX out can be any universe, multiple universes don't require additional cables, that can be huge past 4U. Additionally; cheaper installation, faster and cheaper repair due to common use gear, monitoring from any location or even several, multiple inputs.

Back to the original topic.
If you do $20K a year in rentals then you have funding far beyond most schools. A "System Modernization Plan" is called for, emphasizing that nothing gets thrown away and long term savings. The admins would probably love to convert the house lights to LEDs, but that would take just such an upgrade. You need to think long term and definitely towards a massive expansion of LEDs. How big a system would it take if you owned all those lights? What if you then rented more? What if you had an all LED rig? (Allow 10 addresses per current fixture.)

You may need more help than we can give. Someone that can come out to the school, that really knows systems. A consultant is best, like me and several others here, but closer. But your rental house might be the best starting point.
 
So, our house lights are already led. Alright, for our largest show last year, we used 809 addresses. All of those lights were rented and it consisted of 71 lights. We currently for most shows just use (2) Mac 700's, (6) Elation sixpar 100's, and a handful of Source fours. We rent the sixpars and the 700's. Our inventory contains about (25) Source 4's ranging from juniors to Zoom's. We have two boards, an ETC Element and a Pathway Cognito2. To be honest, if we had 2-4 moving heads on our beam in front of house that is capable of flying in and out and a few static LED fixtures, then we could stop renting for a large portion of our shows. We do the large event once a year and even if bought all those lights, we would have nowhere to keep them. But by buying 4 moving fixtures, we can take our rented lights number down from 71 to 67 (Big Difference right!). If we wanted an all LED rig, we could do it with our current set up but it would be long cable runs, but it could be done in under two universes. It would just consist of enough to put on shows without having to rent. And yes we have very large budgets, they just don't go to things that matter, many things are often neglected or purely forgotten about at my school.
 
I can see a network would be appropriate. You are close to needing a 3rd universe and in a pure DMX system that would be pretty expensive to add on, just as adding a 2nd is right now. Certainly it could be done, especially if you choose to run 2 consoles at the same time.

If things are getting forgotten then it's time to get more adults involved. Recruiting allies for such a plan can be tricky for a student. You'll have to develop a large pro/con list so you can recite the relevant points to each person. You might also look into sharing this network with the sound system. Safety, costs, time, maintenance, training, ease of use, reliability are all areas to consider.

I'd start with the school IT folks, as far up the chain as possible. Emphasize that you are gathering information on what is possible and what the costs would be. They won't care so much about the benefits, just how much work it will require of them. They will also need to know that the network should be isolated for security and reliability and that overall bandwidth will be limited. They might even have some older switches on hand.
 
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