LED vs Conventional on tour lighting plots

We have started down the hole of LED vs Conventional. I know the collective thought is LED. We are strictly a roadhouse and I'm still seeing conventionals spec'd on all the riders and anything LED or moving is provided by the tour. For those of you that have experience with touring if you were the tour ME and you came into a house full of LED pars where you had conventional S4 pars spec'd on the lighting plot what would be your thoughts? Would you roll with the punches or would you want the venue to provide what was spec'd on the lighting plot. My thoughts are I would want what was spec'd on the lighting plot for various reasons.
 
Generally speaking, I'd be perfectly happy to have an LED rig in place of a conventional one provided that they could be laid out to serve the same purpose. When I write a tour spec for conventionals, it is because I assume 99% of houses are only going to have that available.

This might come down to a bigger question of what type of shows tend to come through your house.
 
well..... I'm not really in your situation, But If i asked for S4 Par's and and the venue said, Sorry we only have ETC Desire D60's Lustr & Vivids, i wouldn't complain. There is potentially more setup required if they are coming in with a console/patch/show file designed for "stupid" fixtures that you just drop gel in. Meaning the added setup of turning the ETC Desire's in to a fixed color instrument may not be viable with the time available.

If the options is what's I've speced (S4 Par) or some cheapo 99$ LED parcan. I want my S4 Par.
 
I imagine we will soon begin to see a shift in this as LED's become more prevalent in house stock, but there's something to be said about the point above regarding intelligent fixtures. If I'm touring with them and I set them up I know how I expect them to work. If I bring a show into a rig that I didn't set up which today is Rush Pars and tomorrow is Rogue's and then Mac's and on and on, I may not have the time I need to make the tweaks before curtain... so while I doubt you would find many complaints about better equipment it may be more of a logistical hurdle than a technical preference.
 
I've helped flip a couple a roadhouses over to LED and usually this debate has come down to whether the road act is pre-programmed or not. If it's busked, programmed day-of, or represents a small or artistically static portion of the plot (front light, typically), no big deal. If the tour LD has to reprogram their whole show file top to bottom and they load in the same day they perform, then there could be some headaches. Really depends on the kinds of tours you're bringing in.
 
It's a conundrum for sure.

On one hand, the touring act should know well in advance, if they advance, that Brooklyn has some D60's in place of S4 Pars (I wish). So burden on the road act to choose or not to play that venue based on whether the house can meet the rider specifications.

OTOH, it's unlikely the act will cancel based on this, the agent is going to convince the act that the "house can deal with this".

Then you (as the tour LD) might well be sitting at a console and racing thru cues as you attempt to make the show look like it did the night before. If the house has it's act together, they will maybe leave in place SOME conventionals, so it's not a complete re-write. As example, I have essentially a 3 color backlight system. If moving to D60's, I might dump 2 of those systems, but probably would even leave 2 conventional systems in place, replacing with LED's the 3rd. I may never really use the conventionals for in-house stuff, but if a road act needing 3 systems rolls in at least 2 systems are ready and I can always park the LED's at a color that matches the road act 3rd color.

The cyc lighting is a bit more troublesome. I'm hoping to find out if it's possible to breakdown a set of ColorForce II's into 3 different color groups, as if it were a 3 color cyc. Then and if the wash is adequate, you can simply just park a group in a matched color and use the same channels as the touring act needs. I've no clue if this would work and doubt it would if you were using Altman Spectra Cyc's or ETC ColorSource Cyc units.

I'd be curious as to Kyles response, if he see's this, as to how they deal with LED cyc lighting at The Egg They have original CF's I believe.
 
It would seem that with good quality LEDs, all it would take is some pre-load in work to perhaps configure the house stuff to work like conventional.

As a one to one match, it's easy. It's for when you've eliminated a bulk of your conventionals and replaced by LED's that matching with color transitions to what the show cue file wants, that it becomes time consuming.

I recall hearing of a few years back that a tour of The Lion King was going out, this time with ETC Selador cyc lighting. They set up 2 cyc's at Hudson Scenic, one with the conventional lighting as done on Broadway, the 2nd side-by-side with the LED package, then spent a month cuing.
 
FWIW, the worst case scenarios I've encountered are shows where they have multiple colors from tungsten fixtures such as two colors of high sides from each direction, and the design relies on being able to play with the blending of those colors. This can be harder to adapt day-of than color down washes or cyc lighting.
 
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I imagine we will soon begin to see a shift in this as LED's become more prevalent in house stock, but there's something to be said about the point above regarding intelligent fixtures. If I'm touring with them and I set them up I know how I expect them to work. If I bring a show into a rig that I didn't set up which today is Rush Pars and tomorrow is Rogue's and then Mac's and on and on, I may not have the time I need to make the tweaks before curtain... so while I doubt you would find many complaints about better equipment it may be more of a logistical hurdle than a technical preference.

In the rock and roll market, this has been the case for a decade. LD's are used to getting different fixtures each day. I'm sure theater LD's are not far behind in adapting. Usually, in the music industry, the opposite problem exists. The entire show is programmed with only moving lights then you show up to a state fair with a 120k rig.

I am not an ETC programmer, but in MA its actually pretty easy to clone LEDs or moving lights to replace conventionally fixtures. Planning ahead for this scenario by pre-programing with a few "dummy fixtures" can help a lot. I know ETC is king in theater, and while I don't have much experience programming them, I would assume similar solutions are available. Smart planning and initial programming goes a long way. If people are not prepared for this yet, then they probably have some catching up to do, as LED renovations are happening quickly across the market.
 
It would seem that with good quality LEDs, all it would take is some pre-load in work to perhaps configure the house stuff to work like conventional.

This is not that hard if the tour is okay with only having the RGB LEDs ad ignoring white/amber etc. Not Ideal because often those extra LEDs are needed to create good colors. I have either patched all the other channels dimmers parked at zero or 100, depending on the attribute or even just give the tour the addresses for RGB then merge that through my console that had all the other dimmer/strobe/white/macros set to "open" or "off.

I have only needed to do these things for people using incredibly archaic consoles, like a nearly 20-year-old AVO.

Anyone who has programmed a touring show that does not carry cyc lights in the last 5+ years would be delinquent in their duty not to have both conventional and LED fixtures in their show files
 
Well... yes thats true, music touring tends to be much more flexible primarily based in its busking nature. (Not to be read as easier, but different) With the commonality of by type pallets, filters and standardized fixture profiles a skilled operator can do the things you describe.

but if we're talking about design where color, shape, direction, mood and movement are all key factors, by swapping the gear you've now changed the intent of the show...

So we go back to the earlier posts of it depends on the type of show coming in to the venue...

Music they'll probably be very happy... theater is probably gonna have a hard day... not impossible, but not easy.
 
Well... yes thats true, music touring tends to be much more flexible primarily based in its busking nature. (Not to be read as easier, but different) With the commonality of by type pallets, filters and standardized fixture profiles a skilled operator can do the things you describe.

but if we're talking about design where color, shape, direction, mood and movement are all key factors, by swapping the gear you've now changed the intent of the show...

So we go back to the earlier posts of it depends on the type of show coming in to the venue...

Music they'll probably be very happy... theater is probably gonna have a hard day... not impossible, but not easy.

To imply that the majority of music lighting is busked, and that color shape, mood etc. are somehow not considered in music is both incorrect and insulting to the designers. All of the top shows out there are meticulously cued and these days it's very common for them to be triggered by timecode. Yes, some shows are completely busked, but most still have very specific cues, just because it is not run from one single cue stack does not make it any less deliberate or artful.

The theater industry has always been slow to adapt to technology, but to say that adapting theater show to an LED light rig is causing a severe burden on people, is a poor excuse for either not being a good programmer for not doing a good job initially programming a show.

In rock and roll, people figured out long ago that it was not going to be financially and logistically possible to have the exact same gear every day, on all but the largest tours, and even those play festivals sometimes and have to make compromises. In theater, people became used to only using dimmers for the most part, and always having at least comparable conventional fixtures everywhere they went. Now when people get something BETTER than what they are used to, they still complain about it.

Theater people need to stop using "art" as a cop-out for not keeping up with technology, or get left behind as theaters adopt all led rigs, especially with color mixing, and moving lights.
 
Theater people need to stop using "art" as a cop-out for not keeping up with technology, or get left behind as theaters adopt all led rigs, especially with color mixing, and moving lights.

Remember that typically theater of drama or musical, rarely see the kind of budgets of even medium sized R&R tours, thus while wanting the latest and greatest gear, usually can’t afford it.

The technology is used when budget allows, just differently and usually in smaller venues, so maybe less of it. When a budget allows and/or conditions require it, a Broadway show may consist entirely of Movers and LED’s, so the technology is used.

Part of the OPs question and the reason for the post, was how do tours adapt. The same way that a R&R tour not carrying a rig adapts, with pre-planning, skill and artistry. No question that live act LD’s have that artistic talent and bring it to the event, cued or basked. That was never in question or suggested.
 
Remember that typically theater of drama or musical, rarely see the kind of budgets of even medium sized R&R tours, thus while wanting the latest and greatest gear, usually can’t afford it.

The technology is used when budget allows, just differently and usually in smaller venues, so maybe less of it. When a budget allows and/or conditions require it, a Broadway show may consist entirely of Movers and LED’s, so the technology is used.

Part of the OPs question and the reason for the post, was how do tours adapt. The same way that a R&R tour not carrying a rig adapts, with pre-planning, skill and artistry. No question that live act LD’s have that artistic talent and bring it to the event, cued or basked. That was never in question or suggested.


Touring LDs will adapt, or they will not have jobs. An LD asking for conventional CYC lights because they don't know how to adapt is like the production manager asking for a typewriter and a fax machine so they can advance their next show.
 
To imply that the majority of music lighting is busked, and that color shape, mood etc. are somehow not considered in music is both incorrect and insulting to the designers. All of the top shows out there are meticulously cued and these days it's very common for them to be triggered by timecode. Yes, some shows are completely busked, but most still have very specific cues, just because it is not run from one single cue stack does not make it any less deliberate or artful.

The theater industry has always been slow to adapt to technology, but to say that adapting theater show to an LED light rig is causing a severe burden on people, is a poor excuse for either not being a good programmer for not doing a good job initially programming a show.

In rock and roll, people figured out long ago that it was not going to be financially and logistically possible to have the exact same gear every day, on all but the largest tours, and even those play festivals sometimes and have to make compromises. In theater, people became used to only using dimmers for the most part, and always having at least comparable conventional fixtures everywhere they went. Now when people get something BETTER than what they are used to, they still complain about it.

Theater people need to stop using "art" as a cop-out for not keeping up with technology, or get left behind as theaters adopt all led rigs, especially with color mixing, and moving lights.

I think part of the difference is that a lot of the music acts that use a house plot have an actual LD. A lot of the theatrical shows don't, it's a SM that calls the focus, and someone that knows just enough to patch their console, hand the house LD a thumb drive with the show file, or help walk the house LD through programming the show on the house console.
 
I think part of the difference is that a lot of the music acts that use a house plot have an actual LD. A lot of the theatrical shows don't, it's a SM that calls the focus, and someone that knows just enough to patch their console, hand the house LD a thumb drive with the show file, or help walk the house LD through programming the show on the house console.

There should be no problem at all with adapting to an LED rig if its the house LD programming on a house desk. If the stage manager says to make the cyc purple, what difference do the fixtures make as long as the end result is the same?

If a tour has sent out an SM that know just enough to patch dimmers on a touring desk and is not actually and LD or Programmer, then the tour does not have enough clout to demand a different light rig, and have set themselves up for failure. Why would you spend money on a lighting console before a lighting person? Cross through that entire production rider and send it back; they will still do the show. Beggers can't be choosers.
 
well this took quite the turn while I was in a preview... David Jones no one is calling you out here, you make a lot of good points. it would be nice if theater tours could afford to travel with designers, but to be honest they don't really need to. Wouldn't you agree that's not the reality of the convention of theater design?

And having done both types of tours, rock and roll gigs are usually far more complex in operation so the elements of design I would argue are actually more vital and difficult with a multi stack moving light rig than a "theater" show. Once a theater show leaves tech and it's one cue stack and a go button with a stage manager in your ear it becomes pretty robotic. I used to tour with a guy who checked in on headset by saying "pbgb" push. Button. Get. Banana.

And you're right if a venue can't handle a show or the other way around then they shouldn't do it. I operate a mostly theater venue with almost all LED moving lights and we do spend a lot of time translating shows to our rig. We use an ETC board for theater and a Martin for busking/music. Which is incredibly rare here in the city to own your own gear, especially LEDS and movers, so almost everything in NYC is rented... I think that's one of the best things about what we do. There are conventions, general rules and practices, but you can also throw it all out the window and make it up as you go. Art should never be an excuse, but it should be a reason we continue to do it and to do it better tomorrow than you did today.
 
There should be no problem at all with adapting to an LED rig if its the house LD programming on a house desk.

It just takes time and sometimes you don’t have much.

I’ve seen Cyc washes for a visiting Russian ballet company use 3 washes with Lee 164, Lee 201 and L106. So a med. blue, lt. blue and a red. The ONLY way to match the desired looks to an LED strip set is cue by cue with the show SM/LD trying to match to what the conventionals are supposed to be. It’s not all bad, I had one LD tell me that was very happy to see LED’s as she got the backdrops closer to what she really wanted rather then what the ugly gels provided.
 

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