Temporary relocation of sound booth. Help!

Hi All- I'm really torn with how to temporarily relocate our sound booth for an evening drama/performance at my church. We have a presonus StudioLive 24.4.2, with firewire (it's not an AI, so no network). Our current sound room is in a bad location, and we are planning on relocating to a set of risers in the sanctuary to better monitor and mix the performance. We'll be about 40' away from the original booth.

We really only need to be able to do some small adjustments and mute/unmute the board and play some music through itunes. Probably only looking to control up to 8 channels. The mac mini that we have is connected to the soundboard via firewire, and we've used Universal Control on it before to make adjustments on the soundboard that way.

I was originally thinking about relocating the monitors, keyboard and mouse to the remote location. HDMI is easy to get over that distance, and USB wouldn't be a challenge either. Only problem is that we rely on using the board through the remove control software only, and I wondering about a stability issue, and that we're just limited to a mouse, not like hands on an actual sound board. This would be really easy to move, but the tradeoff is usability.

The second option would be to put in a 8 channel snake to go from the soundbooth to our temporary location. The temporary snake would basically go from the snake that already comes into the soundbooth, and we'd just disconnect the soundboard and mac mini (for itunes) and put them in the temporary location. So we'd have 8 channels running to the temp location from the soundbooth and then use the TRS jacks on the snake to run our main mix and monitor mix back to the soundbooth to the amps.

How would you guys go about doing it? Can't run a temp snake right to the original pickup points from the permanent snake, as it'd be a trip hazard. Sound amps are in the sound room.

My first thought for a temp setup with that number of inputs would be to run a snake direct to the stage. If that's not an option I'd go with your 2nd of patching a snake from the mixing spot to the patchbay or permanent booth and moving the console. I don't know about you, but the list of things I'd rather do before mixing a live show using a laptop is theoretically limitless. If you were to go that route, HDMI has signal degradation after about 15-30'. You'd need some sort of repeater or balun to switch it over to Cat 5 to get your monitor over a 40' run. Same with USB, I think you get 15' out of that if memory serves me.

If you're really set on not moving the console you might want to look into some sort of remote desktop option. If you're doing this on a Windows machine it's pretty straightforward with RDP, but again you're now running a show on a laptop...remotely. If it's over WiFi all bets are off when you're audience shows up and floods the WiFi bandwidth with their phones. Run ethernet to the temp location, setup a laptop and RDP into whatever computer is running Universal Control.

I'm assuming the Presonus doesn't have a digital snake?

StradivariusBone said:

My first thought for a temp setup with that number of inputs would be to run a snake direct to the stage. If that's not an option I'd go with your 2nd of patching a snake from the mixing spot to the patchbay or permanent booth and moving the console. I don't know about you, but the list of things I'd rather do before mixing a live show using a laptop is theoretically limitless. If you were to go that route, HDMI has signal degradation after about 15-30'. You'd need some sort of repeater or balun to switch it over to Cat 5 to get your monitor over a 40' run. Same with USB, I think you get 15' out of that if memory serves me.

If you're really set on not moving the console you might want to look into some sort of remote desktop option. If you're doing this on a Windows machine it's pretty straightforward with RDP, but again you're now running a show on a laptop...remotely. If it's over WiFi all bets are off when you're audience shows up and floods the WiFi bandwidth with their phones. Run ethernet to the temp location, setup a laptop and RDP into whatever computer is running Universal Control.

I'm assuming the Presonus doesn't have a digital snake?

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I completely agree with not wanting to do it through the mac mini using the control software. It'd be the worst case scenario as I keep playing around with this idea. I just don't like the idea of being that far away from the actual sound board if there is an issue. I also agree with running directly to the stage with the snake, but i think the route it would have to go would be a trip hazard, and I don't want to invest in a bunch of unnecessary cable tracks, etc.. plus I'd have to be running a cable the opposite direction to the soundroom anyways to pick up the amps.

I was just trying to come up with a way of not having to connect/disconnect the entire board (24 channels, aux ins, etc..) every time for a practice up until the event. Moving a monitor keyboard and mouse would be much easier, but as stated, that comes with many other problems.

If it were me, I would take this as an opportunity to plan out the use of this other location as a second optional FOH location. Even though this is a one night event, it sounds to me like you will want to use this better location again in the future.

So, if you will only ever go to this position, then a 50' snake sounds reasonable. 8x4x50' or preferably 16x4x100', depending on your budget and whether or not you are willing to pick up a used snake (my snakes were both purchased used, < $100 each, and they have worked flawlessly for years).

Then, decide if you want to pick up and move the Presonus board (which I assume isn't light) or purchase a smaller board. If the latter, then I would suggest getting an iPad friendly board such as the Mackie DL1608 or Behringer XR18 ... both are in the $600 range. Then you have complete freedom to roam around the entire room as you mix, regardless of which sound booth location you are using

Is it really that much of a hassle to run a snake for all your line/mic runs? Vs running a USB extension as other stuff (as others have mentioned). If a trip hazard is the concern (can you not use tunnels?) why can you run the USB and HDMI but not the audio cables?

Aaron Becker said:

Is it really that much of a hassle to run a snake for all your line/mic runs? Vs running a USB extension as other stuff (as others have mentioned). If a trip hazard is the concern (can you not use tunnels?) why can you run the USB and HDMI but not the audio cables?

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To run a snake from the sound room to the temp location would be as easy as running USB and HDMI, because they would all take the same path. Running a new snake from the temp location to where the other snake terminated, would be an issue of trip hazard. The existing snake terminates near the "stage" and goes through walls to a 2nd floor sound room at the back of the sanctuary with a tiny 2'x3' window for us to try and hear out. We want to put a temporary sound booth on that back wall, on the first floor in the sanctuary, so all the cabling practically drops out of the window to the new location (doesn't really, but that's the easiest way to explain it).

If we run a snake to the new sound booth, we'll have to get another sound board just to mix the channels we need for the performance. Relocating the existing sound board will cause a multitude of problems, unless we move it back and forth for practices and then the performance. That's why I was considering on just extending the interfaces to the Mac and using the firewire control software to mix the performance. This year, the performance isn't that complicated as past. We're only needing to play some itunes songs and unmute choir mics. There isn't a whole lot of mixing involved. But in the future we can be looking at up to 8 wireless mics and multiple scenes and more complex mixes for the choir.

Photovor said:

To run a snake from the sound room to the temp location would be as easy as running USB and HDMI, because they would all take the same path. Running a new snake from the temp location to where the other snake terminated, would be an issue of trip hazard. The existing snake terminates near the "stage" and goes through walls to a 2nd floor sound room at the back of the sanctuary with a tiny 2'x3' window for us to try and hear out. We want to put a temporary sound booth on that back wall, on the first floor in the sanctuary, so all the cabling practically drops out of the window to the new location (doesn't really, but that's the easiest way to explain it).

If we run a snake to the new sound booth, we'll have to get another sound board just to mix the channels we need for the performance. Relocating the existing sound board will cause a multitude of problems, unless we move it back and forth for practices and then the performance. That's why I was considering on just extending the interfaces to the Mac and using the firewire control software to mix the performance. This year, the performance isn't that complicated as past. We're only needing to play some itunes songs and unmute choir mics. There isn't a whole lot of mixing involved. But in the future we can be looking at up to 8 wireless mics and multiple scenes and more complex mixes for the choir.

Click to expand...

Got it now. Sorry to hear that cables for a performance are considered a trip hazard, though - what a bummer! Sounds like your short-term solution is your best bet (the ones you have already outlined) but perhaps a more long-term solution would be something to look into, like having two mixing positions wired in, etc? I'd at least look into the cost of doing it, mixing through a window is never fun.

I'd get a Mackie DL1608, Airport Express and run off of iPads, use Airplay to stream playback from your iOS device to the Airport Express, and use the headphone jack from the Airport Express to two channels on the DL. No need for a sound table -- you can sit, stand, roam wherever you want.

Aaron Becker said:

Got it now. Sorry to hear that cables for a performance are considered a trip hazard, though - what a bummer! Sounds like your short-term solution is your best bet (the ones you have already outlined) but perhaps a more long-term solution would be something to look into, like having two mixing positions wired in, etc? I'd at least look into the cost of doing it, mixing through a window is never fun.

Click to expand...

Yeah, hasn't been fun for the past 10 years. If we had a permanent space in the sanctuary I'd gun for that. Also, what makes it a trip hazard is that to get the snake to the stage area, it'd have to run through one walk way, through about 15 pews and then about another 10' open walk way. It'd certainly be shorter than daisy chaining snakes. But we'd still have audio runs coming from the sound room too because that's where the wireless mics come in at. Not my ideal configuration for sure, but this is what happens when a retired electrician volunteers to install sound in a new church. You should see our "floor boxes" for audio breakout.

jkowtko said:

I'd get a Mackie DL1608, Airport Express and run off of iPads, use Airplay to stream playback from your iOS device to the Airport Express, and use the headphone jack from the Airport Express to two channels on the DL. No need for a sound table -- you can sit, stand, roam wherever you want.

Click to expand...

I've been looking at this, but the presonus isn't that far off. The AI's are more equipped for this task, but we can still run the universal control app off of an iPad to control the board, but it just relies on the mac mini being the bridge. I just have a hard time relying on iPads and wireless control of a sound board.

Get a 50' snake, patch it in, throw it out the window, and you are off and running. Its really not a big deal to hook up 24 inputs and a dozen drive lines every day. If its well labeled it will take at most 3-5 minutes. Leave it connected in the booth at all times and just coil it under the desk.

Now I am not really a sound guy so if this is wrong that is ok.
If you need to hear the output can't you just use headphones from the desk?
Ok so now I will hide in the background again and try to learn more stuff.
Regards
Crisp image

Crisp image said:

Now I am not really a sound guy so if this is wrong that is ok.
If you need to hear the output can't you just use headphones from the desk?
Ok so now I will hide in the background again and try to learn more stuff.
Regards
Crisp image

Click to expand...

Headphones don't tell you what it actually sounds like in the room.

Footer said:

Get a 50' snake, patch it in, throw it out the window, and you are off and running. Its really not a big deal to hook up 24 inputs and a dozen drive lines every day. If its well labeled it will take at most 3-5 minutes. Leave it connected in the booth at all times and just coil it under the desk.

Click to expand...

Any such way of keeping the

josh88 said:

Headphones don't tell you what it actually sounds like in the room.

Click to expand...

Crisp image said:

Now I am not really a sound guy so if this is wrong that is ok.
If you need to hear the output can't you just use headphones from the desk?
Ok so now I will hide in the background again and try to learn more stuff.
Regards
Crisp image

Click to expand...

As Josh88 mentions, that's exactly right and what prompted this whole temporary move in the first place. Being above the speaker plane and having a small window doesn't give us enough clarity to really hear what's happening. We have studio monitors that let us know how the mix actually sounds, but that mix sounds completely different when applied to the whole room. Looks like we'll end up funding a second smaller sound board and just using a snake to extend what we already have. I only want to patch what we need and not have to connect and disconnect a full soundboard a bunch of times.

josh88 said:

Headphones don't tell you what it actually sounds like in the room.

Click to expand...

@Crisp image That would be akin to finessing your LXQ's based upon what you're seeing on a black and white video monitor sourced from an infra-red sensitive camera taking a cover shot of a stage flooded with IR.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

Thanks @josh88 @Photovor and @RonHebbard that makes perfect sense. I can now tick the "I learnt something today" box.

Photovor said:

... but this is what happens when a retired electrician volunteers to install sound in a new church. You should see our "floor boxes" for audio breakout.

Click to expand...

I'm sure I've seen equally worse floor boxes. I've cleaned up my fair share of messes that others left. But in the moment, those didn't feel like they were leaving a mess at all, and probably felt they were doing a favor. Best of luck to you, whatever you decide. I've generally found if you make an attempt to hide the cables, or make them the least amount of trip hazard possible, people generally don't mind.

I actually "donated" some cables to a church 4 years ago for a "2 week test" by the music directors - the snakes were taped against a wall and ran around 100 feet from the old music area to a new one. That "two week test" is still in place today. Everyone seems to have forgotten it was "temporary." I should send them a bill for those cables... thanks for the reminder!

Aaron Becker said:

I'm sure I've seen equally worse floor boxes. I've cleaned up my fair share of messes that others left. But in the moment, those didn't feel like they were leaving a mess at all, and probably felt they were doing a favor. Best of luck to you, whatever you decide. I've generally found if you make an attempt to hide the cables, or make them the least amount of trip hazard possible, people generally don't mind.

I actually "donated" some cables to a church 4 years ago for a "2 week test" by the music directors - the snakes were taped against a wall and ran around 100 feet from the old music area to a new one. That "two week test" is still in place today. Everyone seems to have forgotten it was "temporary." I should send them a bill for those cables... thanks for the reminder!

Click to expand...

@Aaron Becker Realize when you submit your invoice, they're going to consider your "two week test" as an example of your professional workmanship / installation. Which is more valuable to you, the money, the cables or your reputation?
Neither my business nor my "monkeys" to paraphrase your salutation.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

RonHebbard said:

@Aaron Becker Realize when you submit your invoice, they're going to consider your "two week test" as an example of your professional workmanship / installation. Which is more valuable to you, the money, the cables or your reputation?
Neither my business nor my "monkeys" to paraphrase your salutation.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

Click to expand...

Ron-

Thanks for your insight. My comment was very much tongue in cheek, though I doubt it came across that way over the interwebs. (Also, it wasn't "my" test.) I have plenty stellar reputation with said establishment and have zero intentions of sending a 4 year old bill.

Great day!

Rent tan 8/4 snake Snake and small mixer - drop the snake down from the booth and away we go!

Do not rush into the "final solution" if the event is close - renting is very cost effetive compared to rushing an install solution and then finding that you made a heap of incorrect assumptions