Current Ethernet cable specified ?

Switches are a Dell unit I cannot recall - it's an ETC recommended unit with 24 ports and PoE.

Yes, Cat5/6 on units is not an issue with this space. As part of our adjacent new facility - you know, the one scheduled to open in 2014, the consultants specified 18 ETC 2 port portable gateways, plus 10 ETC 1 port gateways. We are also getting a boatload (as supplemental purchase) of Lustre II's (134), Desire D60's (52) another 24 Color Source Pars (added to the 16 in house), plus 30 or so Elation units (LED profiles and washes). The result is a desire to get the Black Box space updated to accommodate some of this gear. When I last did a control cable layout for the other spaces considering the new LED gear, we had Gateways to spare, but that the huge investment in LED can justify the recommendation to update the control cable infrastructure, well actually, to install one for this 3rd space. Ion is getting updated as well and we will recommend either a new CEM3 Sensor rack with 24 PowerThru, or renovate the existing CEM classing to CEM3.

Then we are thinking about a Lyntec motorized breaker panel plus an ETC Echo, simple control setup, to replace a legacy 60 year old 2 pole relay controlled breaker panel that powers room worklights. Nothing fancy needed on this.
@SteveB I strongly support Lyntec and their support. I had one blown up by an IA apprentice who didn't realize Cam-Locks rotated to lock and a neutral T came apart under load blowing up one Lyntec panel's control electronics and 4 or 5 UPS's. Lyntec over-nighted a new control PCB, I replaced it and we were back up and programming our automation and show control without losing any time. None of the Alcorn McBride, Leitch, Crown or Crestron gear lost any of its magic smoke.
Edit: Mistakenly typed AMX instead of Crestron. Oops!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
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@SteveB I strongly support Lyntec and their support. I had one blown up by an IA apprentice who didn't realize Cam-Locks rotated to lock and a neutral T came apart under load blowing up one Lyntec panel's control electronics and 4 or 5 UPS's. Lyntec over-nighted a new control PCB, I replaced it and we were back up and programming our automation and show control without losing any time. None of the Alcorn McBride, Leitch, Crown or Crestron gear lost any of its magic smoke.
Edit: Mistakenly typed AMX instead of Crestron. Oops!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
Ehhhh Ron? Network switches I think, not company switches. Don't think LyntecmLynte network switches.
 
Ehhhh Ron? Network switches I think, not company switches. Don't think LyntecmLynte network switches.
@BillConnerFASTC When @SteveB typed "Then we are thinking about a Lyntec motorized breaker panel plus an ETC Echo, simple control setup, to replace a legacy 60 year old 2 pole relay controlled breaker panel that powers room worklights." I suspected he was speaking of Lyntec, the folks manufacturing and marketing sequenced and DMX controlled breaker panels up to 3 phase 41 pole using Square D motorized 1, 2 and / or 3 pole breakers. They always have to have one pole to power their control electronics, that's why even their 42 pole panel boards only accommodate 41 available poles. Good people marketing good products with great support.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
You're correct. I apologize. Missed a post.

I've gone to Sensor IQ. 48 spaces, any combo of breakers, main lugs, and lots of options and accessories for LED lights. And networked.
 
@ron, yes those are the panels.

We have a slew of them in our new building. Our Barbizon tech. thinks highly of them.

@Bill. I’ll give the ETC units a look as well.
 
From an integrator's perspective...

People still install infrastructure cabling that isn't 6A or better?
I have 3 different brands of 6A or 7 sitting in the warehouse, which gets used depends on the client - several of our higher education clients have preferences for various brands of cabling backbone...
The only 5e we have is used for dumb control - relays, IOs, 232 and the like, nothing ethernet.

There is no commercial sense in maintaining the stock or tooling for lesser cables, the labour component far outweighs the extra cost and certain 6A systems (I'm looking at you Siemon) are far quicker to terminate in the field than most traditional Cat6 terminations further tipping the economics away from 6...

Shielded gives you the versatility to run whatever, now or into the next 20 years.
As far as separate networks, you can if you want, but I think we'll see that in 5 - 10 years time that will be an anachronism, the network will become even more ubiquitous and it will just be VLANs on shared enterprise grade, redundantly powered switches...
 
My experience is that when you step from CAT6 UTP to CAT6A STP you're tripling the material cost of the cabling/jacks. Cable goes from $120/1000' to $540/1000', and jacks go from $8/pop to $20.

Sending 10 cables to a panel? Because of the increased cable diameter, that 1-1/4" conduit you could've used just became a 2" pipe or became (2) 1-1/4" pipes (usually the latter, electricians hate piping 2" and higher). So practically speaking, this difference has the impact of doubling the conduits required.

If you need you a plenum derivative, or an indoor/outdoor derivative to go in/below the slab, you can expect the costs to soar even higher.

I'm all for future-proofing where appropriate, but I don't think all shielded 6A or even unshielded 6A all the time is the way to go. It comes at the expense of blowing up the project budget and having to chop out very tangible items like wireless mic systems or lighting fixtures.
 
+1 Mike. I wonder if lighting control is going to need the speed of 6A or 7 in the life of the system, or are you spending money that has very little likelihood of a benefit.
 
@ron,My experience is that when you step from CAT6 UTP to CAT6A STP you're tripling the material cost of the cabling/jacks. Cable goes from $120/1000' to $540/1000', and jacks go from $8/pop to $20.

So essentially I'd be fine with standard Cat6 all around, 4 systems - Lighting, Audio, Video and Utility.

Got it.
 
+1 Mike. I wonder if lighting control is going to need the speed of 6A or 7 in the life of the system, or are you spending money that has very little likelihood of a benefit.

It will require a quantum change in what we think of as DMX, a serial protocol that moves data at roughly 250kb/sec. USB 1 was faster, and I think MIDI is 2x that speed, both using RS485. ARTnet and similar 'bundling' protocols that allow use of TCP/IP packet-switched networks are, in essence, a kludge until the industry decides on what the next generation or 2 of fixture control will be.

Now that we have fixtures that each use 10% of the addresses in a universe, the "channel per parameter" paradigm needs some work...

LX was fortunate to settle on a digital protocol of any kind, look what happened to audio - no fewer than 5 different digital audio networking schemes in 20 years, none really gaining wide industry acceptance until Dante came along.
 
When Izenour's vision if every luminair being a kind of video projectors, maybe, but installing infrastructure for lighting a long ways off seems not warranted.

We were better off when the average life of a theatre before it burned was 5 years. You stay a lot more up to date and don't spend on speculation.
 
When Izenour's vision if every luminair being a kind of video projectors, maybe, but installing infrastructure for lighting a long ways off seems not warranted.

We were better off when the average life of a theatre before it burned was 5 years. You stay a lot more up to date and don't spend on speculation.

I agree that trying to install infrastructure for unknown future protocols is not a good idea. Burning theatres every 5 years only enriches builders. A 10 year interval is needed to really mature the SOTA. /nudge, wink, satire
 
(responding to the original post)

We throw out the term “Cat 5” a lot, but I know there’s better/improved stuff, I’ve just no idea - Cat 6 ?, Cat 6E ?. What’s currently being installed, it’ll likely be in conduit in a n accessible plenum wall area.

First suggest you read my thread on the subject and the replies I've gotten:

https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/anyone-find-a-vga-extender-that-works.43347/

While Cat6 and "6e" are "better", some of the extenders may not like "better", especially those that transmit analog data; as someone already mentioned above "6e" is not a real standard, although the cable is labeled as such.

Second, some devices NEED shielded cable while other devices say you shouldn't use shielded cable. For instance my XLR extender says to use shielded because it transmits the 4 hots and colds through the twisted pairs, and uses the shield for ground...without the ground you can't use phantom.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have insisted the wiring company use 5e as I requested in the quote instead of letting them talk me into using the "6e" cable. I don't think I would be having the problems I am having if I had.
 
Be sure it's SHIELDED cat6 cable with ethercon wall plate jacks for audio.
 
This is one of those methods that's so flexible it usually ends up giving the user enough rope to hang themselves with. If everything is general purpose, then as Bill pointed out there's a high risk that something will be patched wrong. Beyond that, it's just more time every show because it adds steps to getting the systems online.

The general standard I see, beyond my own designs, is that ports are reserved around the theater for Lighting Net and Audio Net that go back to switches, leaving general purpose UTP and/or STP jacks going back to patch bays with a set number of ports on those patch bays going back to each of the network switches. This way when you need to get a console or a stage box on the network, you know when you plug in that your "Audio Net 34" spigot is always going to be work right out of the box. This also puts the network switches in the back of the rack leaving only the stuff the user has to see on the front of the rack. This makes for more stable systems and makes it much harder for a user to unknowingly take their whole system offline. This also makes it easy to standardize that anything on a network is CAT6 (very little point for 6A in the foreseeable future), and that anything on UTP/STP tie is 6A, which is more likely to be used for bandwidths in excess of 1 Gig.

I would caution that more isn't always better. CAT7 has very few practical uses today. I've only encountered it once. Even making the jump from CAT6 to CAT6A can be pretty expensive but 6A at least has practical applications for point-to-point video. If you're really concerned about flexibility over time, you're better off pulling SM and MM fiber around your venue, which can be used for just about anything. It'll be cheaper overall and easier to install. The primary benefit to copper is that it's natively useable without media converters -- but how much money do you want to drop to avoid converters?
 
This is one of those methods that's so flexible it usually ends up giving the user enough rope to hang themselves with. If everything is general purpose, then as Bill pointed out there's a high risk that something will be patched wrong. Beyond that, it's just more time every show because it adds steps to getting the systems online.

The general standard I see, beyond my own designs, is that ports are reserved around the theater for Lighting Net and Audio Net that go back to switches, leaving general purpose UTP and/or STP jacks going back to patch bays with a set


Consider - More converters , more wall wort transformers, more points of failure tho ...
 
So essentially I'd be fine with standard Cat6 all around, 4 systems - Lighting, Audio, Video and Utility.

Got it.

Yes but do not use the plain Cat6 jacks from Neutrik, use the 6A connectors. This was a mistake by Neutrik; the plain old 6 connectors do not mate with Cat5e or Cat6A connectors. 5e and 6a work together fine though.
 

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