musical theatre sound mixing and equipment

Greetings, all.

I’m the new arts chair (as of last fall) at a school with a well-established musical theatre program, but little budget to staff the tech end of things. I’ve done a fair bit of lighting design through the years, so I’ve been able to cover that myself, and we farm out the set design/building (same for costumes). That leaves sound, of which I know fairly little.

Since every parent needs to hear every peep that Junior utters on stage, we usually run every one of our 25 wireless mics. We know how to get them working, have a system for dealing with mic cues in the script, and are pretty good at riding the faders so that soloists are heard, etc. What we know nothing about, however, are issues like EQ, latency, and fx processing. Some of the issues we grapple with are that we get feedback too often (mostly when the stage is full of singers), the kids can sound tinny, and there sometimes is an undercurrent of static (pink noise, I’m told), etc. Basically, we just want them to sound better.

I have a few questions for you audio pros:

1. Can anyone recommend a text, a YouTube video series, a summer workshop, or some other source for securing a decent basic education on mixing live sound for theatre?
2. We don’t have the funds to hire an outside audio engineer for the runs of our shows, but have heard that getting someone in to “EQ the Room” might help to improve the overall sound quality. I’d like to get a couple bids on such a visit from local outfits, but don’t yet know enough to be a smart shopper. What does an “EQ the Room” visit entail anyway? What would the scope of services be, how long might it take, and how much might we expect this to cost?
3. The one bid we’ve gotten so far describes the service offered as follows: “Our objective for the system tune is to get the PA system to sound as flat a possible. This would be achieved by using Real Time Analyzing software and placing high-end reference microphones at different listening positions. The EQ is then sent to achieve the best sound possible amongst these listening positions. Unfortunately due to your system’s limited processing capabilities this can be quite difficult. We are limited to preset settings on your current EQ units. But I’m sure we can get it to sound better. Ultimately, I would advise to get a professional processor installed to allow for greater flexibility for the system tune.” The fee quoted is $500 for an approximate two-hour visit. Does the process, and the fee, sound kosher?
4. I assume the EQ the Room operation is different and separate from EQ’ing the mics? We find that the sounds coming out of the 25 wireless mics varies enormously, in everything from volume/gain to natural v. artificial sound, tone, sense of distance, and understandability. Some of this is tied to mic placement (we use country style mics) and the vocal production of the individual singers, but what can we do with the mic gain, EQ, and fader levels to help create a more unified result?
5. I found an old email between my predecessor and a commercial audio firm, which at the time was suggesting that the school purchase a BiAmp TesiraFORTE Digital Audio Server, which they claim would allow us to EQ the room. We never bought one, given the $1600 price tag (current sound equipment inventory below). Should we in fact buy one of these things? If so, is that the one to get, or are there better (and cheaper) suggestions for our needs?

CURRENT INVENTORY:

(1) Yamaha QL5 digital mixing console

(2) DBX 2231 Equalizer/Limiter with Type III NR graphic equalizer/limiter

(1) DBX Driverack PA+ loudspeaker manager

(1) Rio 3224-D digital stage box / Dante

(4) EV CPS2 power amplifier

(1) Crown Power Base 2 power amplifier

(14) Shure ULX-D1 G50 Wireless Belt Pack

(14) Shure ULX-D G50 Wireless Receiver

(11) Shure ULX-D1 H50 Wireless Belt Pack

(11) Shure ULX-D H50 Wireless Receiver

(2) Shure UA844+SWB antenna distribution system

(10) Shure ULX D2 G50 SM58 Handheld Wired Microphones

(2) EV force monitor

(1) JBL Cabaret Model 4602B monitor

(6) EV Speakers (don't know the models – not very accessible!)


Any advice you’d have to share would be most welcome.


Stuart Rosenthal

Miami, FL

There are a plethora of videos on YouTube. I happen to like Ascension Worship #TechTuesday . He does tend to focus on the Behringer X32 series, but the method is similar for just about any digital board.

EQ'ing the room deals primarily with just the Mains (speaker) response . Using RTA software amd generally some form of Pink or White Noise generator they will establish a baseline for how the Mains sound in the room and adjust the input of the Mains to normalize the overall frequency response for the best possible sound from your speakers. This EQ is applied after the output of the mixer before the Mains.

EQing a Mic or an instrument is about recreating and reinforcing the best possible sound for that piece of kit (mic/instrument).

I am betting with the QL5 you can apply the mixer's internal EQ to the output of the board to achieve what you need / want.

I'll let others chime in on the rest.

Stuart R said:

We don’t have the funds to hire an outside audio engineer for the runs of our shows, but have heard that getting someone in to “EQ the Room” might help to improve the overall sound quality. I’d like to get a couple bids on such a visit from local outfits, but don’t yet know enough to be a smart shopper. What does an “EQ the Room” visit entail anyway? What would the scope of services be, how long might it take, and how much might we expect this to cost?

Click to expand...

Generally if I'm hired to tune a PA there is some negotiation about what I'm doing. Is it a flat re-tune? Am I there to also move speakers into more ideal locations?

Stuart R said:

The one bid we’ve gotten so far describes the service offered as follows: “Our objective for the system tune is to get the PA system to sound as flat a possible. This would be achieved by using Real Time Analyzing software and placing high-end reference microphones at different listening positions. The EQ is then sent to achieve the best sound possible amongst these listening positions. Unfortunately due to your system’s limited processing capabilities this can be quite difficult. We are limited to preset settings on your current EQ units. But I’m sure we can get it to sound better. Ultimately, I would advise to get a professional processor installed to allow for greater flexibility for the system tune.” The fee quoted is $500 for an approximate two-hour visit. Does the process, and the fee, sound kosher?

Click to expand...

If I were asked to re-tune a PA and not touch speakers, I'd probably charge $500 whether it be two speakers or 20 speakers -- it's not about the work as much as it is about getting paid a fare day rate. Generally I run tuning sessions in 6 hour chunks and charge about that for a 6 hour slot, but with as few speakers as you have two hours seems about right, this isn't Broadway where we need to tune 100 boxes in 6 hours.

Honestly with how few speakers you have, if you aren't planning on adding any more PA I would say you don't need a system processor. I only say this in the most budget of designs, but it looks like you have at most 6 speakers in your main PA. Your QL5 has 6 Matrices...use the Matrix as a system processor and have them tune on the PEQ of the console. It's what I do when I design shows on a budget -- but I know some contractors who dislike it because you can see the work they did out in the open simply by punching the Matrix up and looking at the EQ and punching the Outport setup and looking at the delay timing. Not the hardest thing to transfer to an external processor at a later date when you get the budget for that.

Stuart R said:

I assume the EQ the Room operation is different and separate from EQ’ing the mics? We find that the sounds coming out of the 25 wireless mics varies enormously, in everything from volume/gain to natural v. artificial sound, tone, sense of distance, and understandability. Some of this is tied to mic placement (we use country style mics) and the vocal production of the individual singers, but what can we do with the mic gain, EQ, and fader levels to help create a more unified result?

Click to expand...

Yep, separate procedures. Go and zero out all your mic transmitters and receivers and then go read up about Gain structure. When I'm doing a musical I'm generally going to keep all my input faders at 0dB and then punch the mics on to my DCA's. I'm going to set the DCA to -10dB and then have my performer give me a baseline dialogue volume that I adjust my Head Amp Gain to match across all performers. If I find they are super dynamic and clip the RF Transmitter as they sing, I knock their transmitter down a few dB, add it back at my Head Amp and I keep my DCA at the same level. The issue here is in setup and making sure you are adding and taking away gain at the correct points in the system for the most natural sound with the best signal to noise ratio.

Stuart R said:

I found an old email between my predecessor and a commercial audio firm, which at the time was suggesting that the school purchase a BiAmp TesiraFORTE Digital Audio Server, which they claim would allow us to EQ the room. We never bought one, given the $1600 price tag (current sound equipment inventory below). Should we in fact buy one of these things? If so, is that the one to get, or are there better (and cheaper) suggestions for our needs?

Click to expand...

Like I said, you could EQ the room right now with what you got. I'd honestly toss the DBX 2231 and the DriveRack PA+ in the trash. If you want a super budget friendly suggestion -- while it is old, I suggest hunting around for a gently used Yamaha DME64N or DME24N and a DANTE-MY16-AUD YGDAI card. They are nearing End of Life, but like most Yamaha stuff I anticipate it'll kick on for a long time. You can pick them up used for very cheap. The DME acts as your system controller, and then you use Dante to route the processed outputs back to your Rio3224 as analog outputs. I do that on the majority of the shows I design. The DME can be as simple of a processor as you want, or it can be as complex as you want -- it's a workhorse of a box.

Aw, hell, Muzic; I needed to read that *last* week.

Nicely put, though, and I concur with everyone who says that between the QL-5 and the Driverack, it oughtn't take any extra gear, as long as the engineer knows both boxes, at least in passing.

One clarification: you mean that you run the mic input channel faders at unity, and the DCAs which control them in the current scene at -10, for a net channel gain of -10 after the trim?

Just to have headroom in mixing?

The preferred EQ for flattening a room is the model D9.



I will give you a quick piece of advice regarding feedback with lots of singers: NOM. Number of Open Mics. Doesn't matter if they're lav/body mics or SM58s on stands... 25 open mics with the same relative gain *will* present potential feedback issues. The solution? Turn them down. This is one reason the male & female ensemble singers get DCA grouping. Giving specific advice regarding input channel EQ settings is probably not best done until you have other issues dealt with, starting with the input side...

Different mics/packs sound different? Ugg. So many places for problems to creep in but start at the source - the microphone elements themselves. Audition a few of your wireless systems and find 1 or 2 that sound *relatively* natural to you with perhaps just a high pass filter on the console input channel, set to around 180Hz (Yamaha has shallow HPF slopes). Using that transmitter pack, try out all your microphones using the same settings, physical placement of mic element, etc. You'll find the worst offenders this way. Flex the cable near the mic and run it between your fingers for the length of the cable, to the connector at the transmitter pack. Listen for pops, clicks and other noises while you do this. You may find a couple more bad units. Now that you've got your mics sorted, test the individual transmitter packs & receivers using 1 known-good mic. If possible patch (and re-patch) the receivers to the same input channel you used for the mic tests or at least copy that input's gain, EQ and HPF filters and paste those setting to all the wireless mic input channels. Set all the transmitter packs for the same input level (chances are a few are different and may be contributing to other problems you're having). Set all receivers to the same audio output levels. Now audition each transmitter/receiver pair - again you're listening for outliers. Once you've determined if you have any transmitter or receiver problems, this is where you may want to re-read @themuzicman 's post above (probably a couple of times and ask questions!) There was an extensive discussion about *where* in the wireless mic signal chain gain belongs over at ProSound Web, http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,166108.msg1532204.html#msg1532204 is Kevin Maxwell's response that is pretty much spot on.

What makes mics sound different or die off? Being dropped and banged into stuff; having cables wound around transmitters; hair spray, makeup, spirit gum; SWEATY actors are the main culprits. Chances are good you've got some sweat-outs and/or makeup clogging the tiny wind screens. I'm sure you'll get good advice regarding cleaning and repairs if you post model numbers. You can also check with Countryman (if I understood you correctly) regarding evaluation & repair.

I'll try to get back on your list of questions but regarding the proposed scope of service - the language scares me. "High end microphones" and "RTA" specifically. That they don't specify their reference mics means they probably aren't "high end" (and how high end they need to be is another discussion) and the RTA is time-blind... you're looking for FFT -Fast Fourier Transform- analysis with competent interpretation. The bigger question is "what are we trying to measure", regardless of FFT or RTA? Flat is not linear, the latter being preferred IMNSHO, but how is this measurement session to accomplish this? I'd pass on this right now until you have other things taken care of.

More later.

You got one sentence, Tim, on "flat" vs "linear"?

No, never mind, I just found it in Kevin's writeup.

Linear just means "flat EQ handles", no?

The point of the main room EQ is to tame the acousticals you're stuck with, no?

Jay Ashworth said:

Aw, hell, Muzic; I needed to read that *last* week.

Nicely put, though, and I concur with everyone who says that between the QL-5 and the Driverack, it oughtn't take any extra gear, as long as the engineer knows both boxes, at least in passing.

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As a SYSTEMS engineer who mixes... I say that system control belongs in a stand-alone box that should be generally inaccessible to the end user. Especially in schools and public facilities with staff that are not audio professionals.

Sure. But you're talking about a "system" constraint, not an "audio" constraint. I don't disagree with you, but it's good to make the distinction here, I think, for Bailey's purposes.

Jay Ashworth said:

You got one sentence, Tim, on "flat" vs "linear"?

Click to expand...

Linear, paraphrased from Robert Scovil (AVID guru, mixer of Bands You've Heard Of®) "What comes out of the console electrically, comes out of the PA acoustically."

Jay Ashworth said:

Sure. But you're talking about a "system" constraint, not an "audio" constraint. I don't disagree with you, but it's good to make the distinction here, I think, for Bailey's purposes.

Click to expand...

I'm not advocating the disallowance of using console functions, only that the stuff to make the system work as designed and approved by whoever is paying for the installation (or its subsequent service) needs to be out of reach of the vast majority of typical operators.

Also, relying on the console to do system processing means the PA no longer works (or doesn't work as designed, at least) should a console substitution be needed.

I'm not a fan of the low end dbx Drive Racks but I'd rather have that in an installation* (locked out) than use the console's output processing.

* edit ps -"provided it was otherwise suitable for the task"

TimMc said:

Linear, paraphrased from Robert Scovil (AVID guru, mixer of Bands You've Heard Of®) "What comes out of the console electrically, comes out of the PA acoustically."

Click to expand...

Ok; that's within 5% of the comment Kevin made.

I'll assume here that why you say this ties in with "don't do the room EQ in the board". With which, as I say, I don't disagree, but not everyone can do it that way.

Jay Ashworth said:

One clarification: you mean that you run the mic input channel faders at unity, and the DCAs which control them in the current scene at -10, for a net channel gain of -10 after the trim?

Just to have headroom in mixing?

Click to expand...

Yep, input channel faders at unity and then a DCA throw to -10 for vocals. If you are adjusting your head amp to allow for this then as you program things to flip in and out of your DCA's your throws should be consistent across all channels. This allows you to mix from muscle memory with eyes on the stage/script and not stare at your hands. You'll find that this is standard on a lot of the larger musicals as most people can consistently throw -10 without trying, and it is a general good rule-of-thumb baseline. It also gives you the best fader resolution which is super important when 1 or 2 dB is the difference between too loud and too quiet when trying to get a mix just right.

TimMc said:

As a SYSTEMS engineer who mixes... I say that system control belongs in a stand-alone box that should be generally inaccessible to the end user. Especially in schools and public facilities with staff that are not audio professionals.

Click to expand...

I'm a systems engineer too, but I also know that sometimes you do some unideal stuff to get a job done on a budget. You have to make due with what you got, and a simple tuning like they want is something you can pass off in a simple console file, backup to Dropbox and USB sticks, and easily notate on paper. It's easy enough to write down what's going on with a few 4 band PEQ's and the Outport delay. Yea, it doesn't account for subbing in a rented console -- but CL's and QL's are ubiquitous enough these days that if their console does tank, that's the most likely substitution.

If it was a complex routed system like I'd put on an Off-Broadway or Broadway show then yea -- I want it all sitting in a Galileo or DME that whatever mix engineer happens to be on the show 6 months down the line can't touch -- but this is like 6 speakers in a poorly funded room. You do what you got to do with what you got.

Exactly.

Now, on the fader thing, you make a difference between fading around -10 and fading around 0? Isn't there *more* resolution if 0 is your center point?

Jay Ashworth said:

Exactly.

Now, on the fader thing, you make a difference between fading around -10 and fading around 0? Isn't there *more* resolution if 0 is your center point?

Click to expand...

If I start my vocals at 0dB then 1: I need to look at my hands because it's not a natural throw and 2: On a vocalist who is a loud talker but quiet singer I'm going to run out of gas real quick. I don't need the resolution on the talking, I need it on the singing and a singing baseline is somewhere between -5 and 0, as soon as the orchestra starts I need to overcome their natural sound. which puts your fader in an ideal place for maximum resolution in a song.

I'm apparently misunderstanding what A Natural Throw is, and why it depends on the baseline.

Probably just a terminology mixup — it’s how far the fader is moving in distance from its lowest point to its useful “on” position. The reason I fuss over the -10 is because that’s a fairly natural physical movement for your hands to make when mixing fast dialogue line by line. It also happens to set the mixer up for success with very minute changes come song time.

I am big on max resolution during songs because a musical mixer is a human compressor as well - musical theater tends to shy away from compressors on channels. I’ll insert one as a last-ditch e-break if it comes to it, but I need natural movement of the faders for quick dialogue and the ability to make tiny tiny changes on dynamic songs.

From -Infinity, to -10?

That's a couple inches on my board.

Jay Ashworth said:

From -Infinity, to -10?

That's a couple inches on my board.

Click to expand...

2.25" on most consoles

Stuart R said:

Greetings, all.

I’m the new arts chair (as of last fall) at a school with a well-established musical theatre program, but little budget to staff the tech end of things. I’ve done a fair bit of lighting design through the years, so I’ve been able to cover that myself, and we farm out the set design/building (same for costumes). That leaves sound, of which I know fairly little.

Since every parent needs to hear every peep that Junior utters on stage, we usually run every one of our 25 wireless mics. We know how to get them working, have a system for dealing with mic cues in the script, and are pretty good at riding the faders so that soloists are heard, etc. What we know nothing about, however, are issues like EQ, latency, and fx processing. Some of the issues we grapple with are that we get feedback too often (mostly when the stage is full of singers), the kids can sound tinny, and there sometimes is an undercurrent of static (pink noise, I’m told), etc. Basically, we just want them to sound better.

I have a few questions for you audio pros:

1. Can anyone recommend a text, a YouTube video series, a summer workshop, or some other source for securing a decent basic education on mixing live sound for theatre?
2. We don’t have the funds to hire an outside audio engineer for the runs of our shows, but have heard that getting someone in to “EQ the Room” might help to improve the overall sound quality. I’d like to get a couple bids on such a visit from local outfits, but don’t yet know enough to be a smart shopper. What does an “EQ the Room” visit entail anyway? What would the scope of services be, how long might it take, and how much might we expect this to cost?
3. The one bid we’ve gotten so far describes the service offered as follows: “Our objective for the system tune is to get the PA system to sound as flat a possible. This would be achieved by using Real Time Analyzing software and placing high-end reference microphones at different listening positions. The EQ is then sent to achieve the best sound possible amongst these listening positions. Unfortunately due to your system’s limited processing capabilities this can be quite difficult. We are limited to preset settings on your current EQ units. But I’m sure we can get it to sound better. Ultimately, I would advise to get a professional processor installed to allow for greater flexibility for the system tune.” The fee quoted is $500 for an approximate two-hour visit. Does the process, and the fee, sound kosher?
4. I assume the EQ the Room operation is different and separate from EQ’ing the mics? We find that the sounds coming out of the 25 wireless mics varies enormously, in everything from volume/gain to natural v. artificial sound, tone, sense of distance, and understandability. Some of this is tied to mic placement (we use country style mics) and the vocal production of the individual singers, but what can we do with the mic gain, EQ, and fader levels to help create a more unified result?
5. I found an old email between my predecessor and a commercial audio firm, which at the time was suggesting that the school purchase a BiAmp TesiraFORTE Digital Audio Server, which they claim would allow us to EQ the room. We never bought one, given the $1600 price tag (current sound equipment inventory below). Should we in fact buy one of these things? If so, is that the one to get, or are there better (and cheaper) suggestions for our needs?

Stuart

Click to expand...

Yes, $500 is a fair rate for someone to RTA the room -- I would ask them to clarify which software they plan on using and have them provide the engineer's certification in that software. in addition to "flattening" your PA, they could also tell you if all of your speakers are operating properly. Most room "tunings" I've been commissioned to do over the years revealed a speaker component or two that were blown...

As for seminars, SynAudCon is the best. it's not cheap, but it is well worth it. If you can find it near you (or in conjunction with a trade show/convention you're already attending), all the better.

As an A/V contractor looking over your equipment list, I would give it a C+. All of your gear is of at least "pro-sumer" grade (Driverack PA) or better (Yamaha console), but the speakers and amps are older models and likely -- even if fully functional -- no longer operating at factory spec (wood degrades, joints become loose, electronics become inefficient with age, etc.) Adding a pro-level DSP unit (Digital Signal Processor) is a good idea, although it may not need to be a Biamp -- BSS, QSC, Symetrix and EV all offer quality DSP units.

If I were offering you system upgrade advice, I would recommend this:

1. See if you can invest in some "smart" amplifiers (that is, audio amplifiers with built-in DSP), then set each amp channel to the factory-recommended tunings (crossover points, slopes, etc.) for the speaker/s that channel is driving. This will ensure you're giving your speakers the very best chance at sounding as good as they can. Yes, you can also achieve this in the DriverackPA, although (IMO) not nearly as effectively as with the new generation of smart amps. Regardless of how you achieve this, then...
2. ...Use a DSP platform to tune your room using a professional contractor to do this. This will be your "permanent" tuning/s -- in other words, you can create one or as many as you like (for example, for all of the different type of events your venue hosts -- speech only, musical, band concert, etc.) -- and your starting point for all future events. Using this (or "these" points, if you create multiple) point (your "square one, as it were), you will always know that you're staring from a good place whenever you begin an event, then...
3. Use the console's internal EQ (which should have been set to "flat" during any of the above processes), tweak each event as needed (I actually spec a dual 31-band analog EQ at FOH for every system I design/upgrade because I find it much quicker to reach an EQ slider - to cut a feedback frequency, for example -- than to navigate through several layers of touch screen buttons, but using the internal EQ or an outboard unit serves the same purpose).

Hope this is useful, mike

If you haven't already realized it or not, your opening a huge can of worms. From my experience most school venue sound is poorly setup. As I think you've realized. I've been called in to fix what a contractor was paid to do.

There are several aspects to "tuning" a SIOUND system. Starting from a general overall configuration, to FOH (front of house) and monitor, to individual microphones.

You always need a starting point and that might be what was meant by a neutral setup. Basically setting the parametric EQs, input & output gains, & GEQs at zero. Then build from there.

Overall sound with the gain structure in the signal path. This is essential. From the input gain if the body packs, receivers, mixer channel gain, master gain, to power amp gain. The setup of your wireless mic kits should be mostly identical. Over time these settings will change so it's best to have the wireless receivers in a locked cabinet.

Once the appropriate volume levels have been found (with headroom), then comes the GEQ. There are free RTA apps that to a pretty good job. Depending on how many GEQs you have will depend on if you create an overall EQ or EQ for individual speakers, speaker groups, or FOH zones. You need at least 2 GEQ channels, 1 for FOH and 1 for stage monitors.

Once I'm happy with the GEQ settings I do a ring out. Most people don't do this but it shows you how much volume you can get before feedback. For ring out, I take 5 or 6 wireless microphones and set them on a chair middle stage, say channels 1-6. Set the channel faders and master faders at the top of the unity range on the console (headroom). First bring up ch. 1 until I hear feedback. Using the RTA I see the offending frequency, bring that frequency band down until feedback stops, then back up a bit but before ringing starts again. Then increase the channel input gain (not the fader) until ringing starts again and repeat. Eventually you should see multiple frequency bands start to ring at the same time. Stop and have someone speak in to the mic and readjust the gain to appropriate vulume level.

After channels 1-6 are set, turn them all on at the same time and repeat.

I use the channel parametric EQ settings for sound quality on that channel...not too bright but not too muddy.

Also use the low cut button on all mic channels. Human voices have a very hard time getting below 120 Hx so this won't hurt the sound quality but may help cut low frequency feedback.

There is an art to doing this, and nit everyone is an artist...

As far as noise when the full cast in on stage with their wireless mics open...tricky. First I'd put on headsets and listen to each channel to see if I can find the offending channel(s). Then. (With all wireless kits on) re-scan for a different channel. If that doesn't fix it, good luck...you may need to bring in an RF spealist from Shure.

I'd love to come out to Miami and get your system running properly. I have family in FL. But with airfare I'd have to charge you $2k.