Using ladders in a set design

This just feels wrong, but it would look great. Is there a safe way to incorporate ladders into a set design instead of stairs? We are building a show that needs to go into multiple spaces and it has a 3 different platform heights, and ladders would make it all look fantastic and not obscure the cyc-

Thanks!

-rj

@

Uncle Dirtnap said:

This just feels wrong, but it would look great. Is there a safe way to incorporate ladders into a set design instead of stairs? We are building a show that needs to go into multiple spaces and it has a 3 different platform heights, and ladders would make it all look fantastic and not obscure the cyc-

Thanks!

-rj

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@Uncle Dirtnap It would certainly work for me, but then I love ladders and am comfortable on them.
Thoughts:
1; The ladders should extend four to six feet (or more) above the levels they're accessing so performers may safely ascend to the required heights with two hands still on the ladder when stepping sideways on to your platforms as well as for ease of exiting the platforms.
2; Consider anchoring all four legs of every ladder solidly to the deck to keep the ladders accurately in position and eliminate any possibilities of the ladders shifting, folding or falling over. This would also make it more difficult for maintenance staff or a visiting trades-person to borrow your ladders during the run of your production.
3; I'm envisioning your ladders positioned SR or SL of your platforms and at 90 degrees such that performers are facing either US or DS while on the ladders then easily stepping sideways when exiting or re-mounting the ladders.
4; A few years ago, Theatre Aquarius in Hamilton, Ontario, mounted a production calling for two, pristine, 8 or 10 foot ladders in a gleaming natural unfinished wood finish. Aquarius was finding newly constructed wooden step ladders difficult to source until they learned the local Mennonite community in the nearby Kitchener-Waterloo area were still fabricating top quality wooden ladders to order.
4a; The set and LX designers found themselves at odds regarding their ladders with the director and set designers LOVING the clean look of the gleaming, near white, wood while the lighting designer was finding the ladders the glaring centre of attention especially when needing to light a performer's lengthy monologue being delivered while blocked several steps up a ladder.
Edit 1: If you aren't fond of the notion of screwing your ladders to your deck, you might entertain cutting a sheet of 3/4" plywood to the dimensions of your ladder's foot-prints and bolting or screwing a 2" back-flap hinge between each ladder's leg and where it abuts the 3/4" plywood. The plywood would serve as a rigid spreader and a layer of cast-iron weights from your fly-system would serve to keep the ladder fairly firmly in position. If cast-iron weights aren't readily available in your venue you may find sand bags, cloth or plastic, suitable.
Edit 2: @Uncle Dirtnap I've re-read your original post and noticed your mentioning "show that needs to go into multiple spaces". With this in mind, I'd suggest 2" back-flap hinges WITH SNUG FITTING YET EASILY REMOVABLE hinge pins as a solid, yet readily detachable, means of securing your ladders to 3/4" plywood portable base plates serving as solid, rigid and stable bases which could be quickly and conveniently weighted to keep them in place, stable and secure yet still capable of being quickly struck, folded and packed in a touring application.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

This could work but I think you have to do some extra ladder work. Jiust like a sword fight needs its specisl sessions, you should schedule some ladder only rehearsals, probably talk about three points of contact, and generally train the performers to work safely on ladders.

Yeah to me it's a design, training and access control thing just like so many other things we do. Do every single thing @RonHebbard said, do instruction followed by supervised rehearsal under work light, then an orientation and half-speed rehearsal with full tech, then full out. All staff get instruction as to whether or not they're allowed to use the ladders (only trained users, only for performance purposes) and someone inspects before use. Consider whether you need to lock out or post signage on the ladders when not in performance.

How high are we talking here?

Do landings have guardrail protection?

I like a spotter on com in a wing to always have eyes on this sort of thing with all staff advised that the spotter or talent may stop performance (with a big f-ing yell if needed), call for work light and so on to address things like an A-frame with only three feet on the floor or a costume snag.

But I work with college students and not the circus.

Edit: I'll add in my experience the hardest part of this sort of thing can be convincing not even the scene designer (if that isn't you) but the director and performer that doing this in a performance is different and more complexly hazardous than just going up to change a lightbulb or clean the gutters at home. The demands of performance, plus the sensory issues with show lighting and sound and costumes - don't forget the costumes - make it a bigger deal than people sometimes realize.

Might be wise to crack open your backstage handbook to page 237 (third edition). 50-65 degrees is the danger zone when it comes to ladders. It gets awkward to climb in that range. Be mindful about ladder width as well. Some people like their hands on the rungs, some people like to slide their hands up the rails. Too wide a ladder and that gets awkward.

I saw a ladder as scenery one time, made out of 2x4 and 1 1/2" dowel for the rungs. Rather than drilling a 1 1/2" hole through the 2x and threading the dowel through, this idiot carpenter ran a drywall screw through the 2x and into the end grain of the rung. Don't be like that guy.

Also, like Ron said, you want the rails to extend beyond the height of the platform so you've got something to hold onto when mounting/dismounting. ITS VERY TEMPTING to notch the rail so it can hook onto the platform edge and give a good tight surface to screw to, DON'T DO IT. It weakens the rail and the cantilevered section will break off when someone needs it the most. Add blocking to fill the gap

And good clearance behind ladder to any and all obstructions. OSHA requires 7c center of rung to obstruction.

If stiles are not really high above top landing like ron notes, then put a "stop" at top so hands don't slide off. Ive fallen backward twice when my hand slid right off style.

BillConnerFASTC said:

And good clearance behind ladder to any and all obstructions. OSHA requires 7c center of rung to obstruction.

If stiles are not really high above the top landing like Ron notes, then put a "stop" at top so hands don't slide off. I've fallen backward twice when my hands slid right off the stiles.

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@BillConnerFASTC And you're publicly admitting this for the future benefit of woman and man-kind? Bravo Mr. Bill, good on you!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

Without the guardrail, you have the possibility (requirement?) of people descending the ladder facing away from it. That would be a deal-breaker for me, and most likely for the people who insure me.

Step through, side step, or step across? All have different challenges.

Wow, I have a great deal to think about. I was trying to design without the space a full staircase takes up... I see it's very possible but noth ing to enter into casually.

I was leaning toward the steeper stair ladder hybrid, look like an attic ladder. I need to give it some serious rethinking.

As always, thanks you for wisdom.

-rj

Maybe ships ladder? Usually a ships ladder has handrails separate from the stiles. Would be safer than straight ladders.

Uncle Dirtnap said:

Wow, I have a great deal to think about. I was trying to design without the space a full staircase takes up... I see it's very possible but noth ing to enter into casually.

I was leaning toward the steeper stair ladder hybrid, look like an attic ladder. I need to give it some serious rethinking.

As always, thanks you for wisdom.

-rj

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My thinking is always that if it benefits the production and the safety concerns can be dealt with, even if they seem daunting at first, then I put in the time to make it happen and document the whole thing so then I've added to my bag of tricks something I can pull out and use again and again down the road. It'll only make your head spin once and then when the need comes up again you can pull your old hazard assessment and safety plan and just ask what's the same and what's different this time? This is definitely a prime example - ladders on set are a pretty regular request, along with generally putting performers at height, so do a really good job this time and you'll make another show or shows easier.

BillConnerFASTC said:

And good clearance behind ladder to any and all obstructions. OSHA requires 7c center of rung to obstruction.

If stiles are not really high above top landing like ron notes, then put a "stop" at top so hands don't slide off. Ive fallen backward twice when my hand slid right off style.

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That would explain a few of your posts! Seriously, hope you landed on something soft (diva? Divan?)

Well, I'm certaimly not a hard ass.

Ben Stiegler said:

That would explain a few of your posts! Seriously, hope you landed on something soft (diva? Divan?)

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Why not have both?

-rj

Uncle Dirtnap said:

Why not have both?

-rj

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So would that be a soft landing on a diva on a divine divan?

I once produced a version of Pirates of Penzance that had a ladder as part of the set:



You can see the ladder at the back, coming down from an upper floor window.

Here's a shot of people climbing down — sorry for bad photo angle, this is a still from a video taken from the lighting box!



In all we brought about 15 chorus members down it. The ladder was screwed to the stage at the bottom and clamped to a beam at the top, and there were handholds behind the set to use when getting on to it. It was optional for the cast to go down the ladder — others entered from the side door — but most of the chorus ended up wanting to do it!