ZIpstrip wattage usage?

Ravenbar

Active Member
Ran into an issue ordering lamps for our zipstrips. The FPB(65w) lamps we've been using have been discontinued. the recommended replacement lamp is a 75w lamps( I was initially told it was a lower wattage, but upon looking it up, found the FPB is 65w).

Our cyc light setup is (4) zipstrips in series, which according to my calculations is already exceeding the dimmer max of 2400w.

ETX lists the max draw of the fixture as 750w.

My confusion is the calculation for the wattage draw of the fixture.

SHould it be 10 lamps x 65(75)w x 4 units, or shoud it be 10 lamps x65(75)w x 4 units / 10(to account for the 12 v lamps)?
 
...SHould it be 10 lamps x 65(75)w x 4 units, or shoud it be 10 lamps x65(75)w x 4 units / 10(to account for the 12 v lamps)?
the former. 650x4 or 750x4. Both are over-capactiy of a 20A circuit/dimmer.

Our cyc light setup is (4) zipstrips in series, which according to my calculations is already exceeding the dimmer max of 2400w.
I would avoid saying "in series" as ZipStrips use wiring, series inside. Instead say, "Our cyc light setup is (4) zipstrips daisy-chained, in three colors..."
 
the former. 650x4 or 750x4. Both are over-capactiy of a 20A circuit/dimmer.

I would avoid saying "in series" as ZipStrips use wiring, series inside. Instead say, "Our cyc light setup is (4) zipstrips daisy-chained, in three colors..."

Thanks for the reply.

I just sent an email to the head of the show, as she's the one who ordered the lamps and got the email about the lamps being discontinued. Hopefully I misinterpreted and the replacement lamp wattage is 55w, which should put us about at the dimmer rating. Asked her to forward me the email, and expressed my concerns ans gave the wattage calculations as well.

I graduated the HS in 2004, this lighting system was put in in 2008 and the cyc lights were hung at that time. They get used very regularly(and for lengthy periods) and as far as I know they have never tripped the breaker. As they're over the dimmer rating, I will look into splitting them up. Plenty of unused circuits on that section of the grid.
 
As they're over the dimmer rating, I will look into splitting them up. Plenty of unused circuits on that section of the grid.
In that case I would change to the 75w EYC (pretty much the industry standard) although it's a 2000-hour, as opposed to the 65w FPB 4000 hour lamp.
 
In that case I would change to the 75w EYC (pretty much the industry standard) although it's a 2000-hour, as opposed to the 65w FPB 4000 hour lamp.

I'm not even sure how we ended up using FPB's. I can't remember, back when I first started working here, if there were spare lamps and Ihad them order more of the same, or if we had none so I either picked on from the list of told them to get lamps for the zipstrips and the FPB are what were supplied. Maintenance during the year, when I'm not there is nearly non-existent, to the extent my first day or two every year is replacing lamps and getting things functional.
 
Be sure that if you change the wattage you replace all of the lamps. Otherwise the lower wattage lamps will fail relatively quickly due to over voltage
 
Be sure that if you change the wattage you replace all of the lamps. Otherwise the lower wattage lamps will fail relatively quickly due to over voltage

Can anyone explain why this happens? Doesn't make sense to me.

Any other lamp work that wouldn't run into this issue. Looking at replacing 120 lamps if that's the only way and being a HS, they don't like to spend money. I have a hard time getting them to throw away working lamps pulled from arced sockets(with arc damage to the pins).
 
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Can anyone explain why this happens? Doesn't make sense to me.

Any other lamp work that wouldn't run into this issue. Looking at replacing 120 lamps if that's the only way and being a HS, they don't like to spend money. I have a hard time getting them to throw away working lamps pulled from arced sockets(with arc damage to the pins).
@Ravenbar My little voice is telling me not to wade into this but I guess I'm too naive / ignorant to listen to my little inner voice.
For example: If there were ten 12 volt lamps of equal wattage they would also all be of equal resistance; therefore if you applied 120 volts to the series connected string 12 volts would be applied to each lamp. O.K.? Are we both speaking the same language so far?
If some of your lamps were of lesser wattage, they would be of a higher resistance. Therefore when you connected your group of lamps in series across your supply voltage more voltage would be dropped across your lower wattage lamps.
I KNOW I'm going to regret wading into this.
@JChenault Can you help bail me out here?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
Edit: Ron and I were typing at the same time. Mine is a different approach, but both are right as they conform to basic electrical theory. Isn't physics great?

Lower wattage lamps have higher filament resistance. The current in a series string is the same in all of the lamps. The total current in the series string of lamps is inversely proportional to the (hot) resistance of the total string (I = V/R = 120V/R). Mixing in higher wattage lamps means lower resistance, hence more current. Since the resistance of each lamp is a fixed amount, increasing the current in the string means the power dissipated by the smaller wattage lamps increases beyond their rating (P = I R). A filament forced to handle too much power goes poof pretty quickly. Lamps in series have to be matched, which is why series strings of lamps are seldom used except in a few types of theatrical fixures.
 
@Ravenbar My little voice is telling me not to wade into this but I guess I'm too naive / ignorant to listen to my little inner voice.
For example: If there were ten 12 volt lamps of equal wattage they would also all be of equal resistance; therefore if you applied 120 volts to the series connected string 12 volts would be applied to each lamp. O.K.? Are we both speaking the same language so far?
If some of your lamps were of lesser wattage, they would be of a higher resistance. Therefore when you connected your group of lamps in series across your supply voltage more voltage would be dropped across your lower wattage lamps.
I KNOW I'm going to regret wading into this.
@JChenault Can you help bail me out here?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

You don’t need any help. Not only does the theory sound right, it matches exactly what happened to me once when I did this by accident
 
You don’t need any help. Not only does the theory sound right, it matches exactly what happened to me once when I did this by accident
@JChenault and @FMEng I keep remembering back to when automobiles changed to having four of the newer, smaller diameter, headlights; the outer two shifted between low and high beams while the inner two only lit when on high. As the vehicle aged and rusted the ground integrity suffered resulting in some interesting headlight illumination.
Diverging on another tangent: During my electrical apprenticeship I purchased my first brand new car, a 1970 Chevrolet Kingswood Estate wagon. Soon I upgraded my four headlights to a fancy French brand with a razor sharp shaping of their beams. I kept that Chev' wagon on the road for 17 years and felt like I was burying an old friend when I let it go.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
@Ravenbar My little voice is telling me not to wade into this but I guess I'm too naive / ignorant to listen to my little inner voice.
For example: If there were ten 12 volt lamps of equal wattage they would also all be of equal resistance; therefore if you applied 120 volts to the series connected string 12 volts would be applied to each lamp. O.K.? Are we both speaking the same language so far?
If some of your lamps were of lesser wattage, they would be of a higher resistance. Therefore when you connected your group of lamps in series across your supply voltage more voltage would be dropped across your lower wattage lamps.
I KNOW I'm going to regret wading into this.
@JChenault Can you help bail me out here?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

Edit: Ron and I were typing at the same time. Mine is a different approach, but both are right as they conform to basic electrical theory. Isn't physics great?

Lower wattage lamps have higher filament resistance. The current in a series string is the same in all of the lamps. The total current in the series string of lamps is inversely proportional to the (hot) resistance of the total string (I = V/R = 120V/R). Mixing in higher wattage lamps means lower resistance, hence more current. Since the resistance of each lamp is a fixed amount, increasing the current in the string means the power dissipated by the smaller wattage lamps increases beyond their rating (P = I R). A filament forced to handle too much power goes poof pretty quickly. Lamps in series have to be matched, which is why series strings of lamps are seldom used except in a few types of theatrical fixures.

That makes a little more sense. I was figuring lower wattage = lower resistance.

Last night, somewhere in the back of my head a bell went off, and for some reason I can recall ECY being a lamp we used to order. I have the show director order anything I need through the school, so I don't have any record of what we've got in the past. I've asked her to look into if she has any records. Hopefully the FPB's were an oddity rather than what we've always used.
 
That makes a little more sense. I was figuring lower wattage = lower resistance.

Last night, somewhere in the back of my head a bell went off, and for some reason I can recall ECY being a lamp we used to order. I have the show director order anything I need through the school, so I don't have any record of what we've got in the past. I've asked her to look into if she has any records. Hopefully the FPB's were an oddity rather than what we've always used.

EYC maybe ?
 
That makes a little more sense. I was figuring lower wattage = lower resistance.

Last night, somewhere in the back of my head a bell went off, and for some reason I can recall ECY being a lamp we used to order. I have the show director order anything I need through the school, so I don't have any record of what we've got in the past. I've asked her to look into if she has any records. Hopefully the FPB's were an oddity rather than what we've always used.
@Ravenbar When in doubt perhaps you may find it useful to think of it this way: As a lamps resistance goes down it consumes more current. When a filament is cold it also offers less resistance resulting in greater current consumption until it comes up to its normal operating temperature: Thus starting surge or COLD surge. In theory, the lower a lamps filament resistance is, the closer it is to a dead short. An infinitely low resistance would result in an infinitely higher current flow / power consumption. Back in my Aquarius days I had a co-op student who fell into the following trap: His logic was if a PAR64 consumed roughly 10 amps when operating at 100% then surely it had to consume more current to consume the same wattage if / when dimmed down to less voltage. I explained the flaw in his logic would make blackouts prohibitively expensive. Mark Bellini not only caught on but went on to become an electrical apprentice, then journeyman and eventually a provincially licensed Master Electrician and electrical foreman on oil drilling rigs in northern Alberta. If / when a concept is alluding you possibly try taking it to extremes in your mind and see if your logic continues to hold up.
@JChenault Care to comment??
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
Does anyone have a way of identifying MR16 lamps that have no visible markings? In an attempt to identify the lamps in the fixtures, I could only find markings on 1 lamp per fixture and those were relatively new replacements. a couple of the several dozen lamps I checked. Most had no discernible marking. In checking 3 strips, I found 2 lamps with FPB markings(probably recent replacements as I order them by the dozen of half dozen.

On a related note, the lamps that were ordered(FPB's were discontinued so supplier recommended EYC lamps), were EZZ lamps, so a 75w NFL MR16. Not really happy with the supplier but as the lamps will work, it's not worth the effort to raise an issue.

One idea one of the people I work with had is that we could strip out a section of lamps, replace them with new lamps and use the old lamps to fill in blowouts in the other sections, until everything gets changed. Not sure even that's advisable as they're looking for a major upgrade and if anything was going to go to LED, I'd say the zip strips(used as cyc lights and general downlight) are a prime candidate. We'de be keeping the zipstrips, just as we still have the r40 lights they replaced. Last time I saw LED theatre lights was at the 2005 USITT conference(color intensity was impressive, but punch was not), but I know technology has come a long way since then. My biggest concern in this space it the learning curve as I'm only there a couple months a year and otherwise people have a hard time even figuring out how to change a lamp.
 
Does anyone have a way of identifying MR16 lamps that have no visible markings? In an attempt to identify the lamps in the fixtures, I could only find markings on 1 lamp per fixture and those were relatively new replacements. a couple of the several dozen lamps I checked. Most had no discernible marking. In checking 3 strips, I found 2 lamps with FPB markings(probably recent replacements as I order them by the dozen of half dozen.

On a related note, the lamps that were ordered(FPB's were discontinued so supplier recommended EYC lamps), were EZZ lamps, so a 75w NFL MR16. Not really happy with the supplier but as the lamps will work, it's not worth the effort to raise an issue.

One idea one of the people I work with had is that we could strip out a section of lamps, replace them with new lamps and use the old lamps to fill in blowouts in the other sections, until everything gets changed. Not sure even that's advisable as they're looking for a major upgrade and if anything was going to go to LED, I'd say the zip strips(used as cyc lights and general downlight) are a prime candidate. We'de be keeping the zipstrips, just as we still have the r40 lights they replaced. Last time I saw LED theatre lights was at the 2005 USITT conference(color intensity was impressive, but punch was not), but I know technology has come a long way since then. My biggest concern in this space it the learning curve as I'm only there a couple months a year and otherwise people have a hard time even figuring out how to change a lamp.
Take a 12 volt battery (motorcycle, car, something that can handle the current) and a DC amp meter. Put the lamp, battery, and meter in series. See how much current it draws. Provided the battery really was 12 volts, multiply that by the amps and you will know the wattage of the unmarked lamps. Might want to take a voltage read on the battery while it's all lit up as 12 volt batteries are rarely 12 volts!
 
Yes, good idea to do an entire strip as one lamp type.

Curious as to why you would be using an “NFL” which I think should be “NSP” for Narrow Spot. I never used anything but the EYC wide and EYF spot lamps. My strips are 6 across with EYC food and 6 more strips underwing (on double strip hangers) using EYF. This lights a 50ft x 30 ft cyc. We also used either the Rosco R124-125-126or 127 gels with built in linear diffusion, or added R104 to a specific color. The diffusion spreads the beam for better blending.

Agree though that an investment in lamps takes away from the urgency to replace with LED. Keep in mind that along with the price of LED fixtures, you will need to deal with constant power (relays, constant breakers) as well as DMX distribution and than maybe upgrades to or a new console. Our Colorforce II 72” strips are 54 addresses per strip, 324 addresses for 6 strips, and we can run them with 103 addresses per strip. The strips eat addresses.
 
Take a 12 volt battery (motorcycle, car, something that can handle the current) and a DC amp meter. Put the lamp, battery, and meter in series. See how much current it draws. Provided the battery really was 12 volts, multiply that by the amps and you will know the wattage of the unmarked lamps. Might want to take a voltage read on the battery while it's all lit up as 12 volt batteries are rarely 12 volts!

I'll look around and see if I've got the stuff to test with. Thanks.

Yes, good idea to do an entire strip as one lamp type.

Curious as to why you would be using an “NFL” which I think should be “NSP” for Narrow Spot. I never used anything but the EYC wide and EYF spot lamps. My strips are 6 across with EYC food and 6 more strips underwing (on double strip hangers) using EYF. This lights a 50ft x 30 ft cyc. We also used either the Rosco R124-125-126or 127 gels with built in linear diffusion, or added R104 to a specific color. The diffusion spreads the beam for better blending.

Agree though that an investment in lamps takes away from the urgency to replace with LED. Keep in mind that along with the price of LED fixtures, you will need to deal with constant power (relays, constant breakers) as well as DMX distribution and than maybe upgrades to or a new console. Our Colorforce II 72” strips are 54 addresses per strip, 324 addresses for 6 strips, and we can run them with 103 addresses per strip. The strips eat addresses.

Didn't request the "NFL" EZZ lamps. I requested FPB lamps which is what was supplied the last time lamps were ordered. SUpplier emailed and said FPB was discontinued, suggested EYC. Reply was sent, saying yes, send us those. Opened box when the order arrived and found EZZ "NFL" lamps, per attached picture.

Current setup at the school is 3 rows of 4 zipstrips(3cir each). They're set up in groups. the back row is connected on 3 dimmers(overloaded, but been that way since the early 2000's), and the front 2 rows are each broken into 2 sections. They are looking to upgrade the console/dimmers/ect at this time.
 

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Take a 12 volt battery (motorcycle, car, something that can handle the current) and a DC amp meter. Put the lamp, battery, and meter in series. See how much current it draws. Provided the battery really was 12 volts, multiply that by the amps and you will know the wattage of the unmarked lamps. Might want to take a voltage read on the battery while it's all lit up as 12 volt batteries are rarely 12 volts!
@Ravenbar If / when you're doing this, make sure your meter's set to a current range which can safely handle the anticipated current. With today's digital volt ohm milliameters internal over current and over voltage protection is vastly improved from the EICO 4.5" VOM's of the 1950's and 1960's. I made the error of loaning one of my VOM's to a school mate to trace out an electrical issue with an old car he'd purchased. Imagine my surprise when he returned my VOM in visually flawless condition but with all of the internal shunt resistors vaporized on all of the four current ranges. Ron Schweitzer had solved all of his problems and then thought it would be interesting to read the current consumption of his old Dodge's various electrically operated accessories. Young Mr. Schweitzer mistakenly read the 500 milliamp range as 500 Amps. It didn't bother him l that my meter's detachable leads were approximately 20 gauge copper. When he placed my meter in series with his 12 volt starter and hit the key, my meter's 500 milliamp shunt vaporized in a puff of smoke. Young Mr. Schweitzer then noticed the two separate pin jacks clearly labelled 10 Amps. Appreciably more than a 100 amps of cold cranking current made short work of my VOM's 10 Amp shunt as well. By the time young Mr. Schweitzer continued to explore the current consumption of his old Dodge's various accessories he'd eventually vaporized every internal shunt in my trusty EICO 4.5" VOM. I used to really like that VOM, it was one of the first EICO kits I'd built. I believe that VOM is still in a box on a basement shelf in my former abode where I kept it as a reminder of loaning valued test gear to young secondary school acquaintances. Young Mr. Schweitzer graduated from our secondary school's electrical courses and went on to become an IBEW (International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers) journeyman electrician in Hamilton, Ontario's IBEW local 105. I've long lost track of both Ron Schweitzer and his identical twin brother Don; Don was in school to become an auto mechanic. Don blew up his brother's gas tank in his parents side driveway, blew it up REAL GOOD! Broke several side windows in this parents two and a half story home along with the glass in their side storm door. In auto class, under close supervision, they taught students taking auto repair as a specialty that it was safe to repair leaks in gas tanks with an acetylene torch while they were full of fuel as long as you were working in a well ventilated area with the tank's cap tightly in place and you were working below the level of fuel in the tank. The best student in our auto shop repaired leaks in several teacher's cars following our auto teacher's instructions. Young Mr. Donald Schweitzer thought he was being extra careful by emptying his brother's car's tank, thoroughly rinsing it with water, leaving it uncapped to dry thoroughly over a hot summer weekend and then was surprised when it blew up singeing his eyebrows, rupturing the tank and breaking several panes of glass. He was wearing plastic sunglasses in lieu of eye protection. It was hours before he could begin to see again and days before his vision thankfully returned to normal.
Details; paying attention to details is so often important.
To swerve this back to our topic: Be sure your meter, its leads and probes can safely handle the current you're anticipating.
@JD Do you concur?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
@JD Do you concur?
Why I never lend anything out unless it's disposable. Lent out some precision screwdrivers once, only to have them used to pry something open. Trashed.
 

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