How are wireless microphone "bands" defined?

TheaterEd said:

Lol. Don't worry. We ALL know the people you are referring to. The ones that are willing to learn new things, I teach, the ones that are not I avoid. It seems to me like this happens when techs only work in one space or with one group for WAY too long.

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I never thought about it, but you're right. A company, or even an informal group, tends to adopt an alpha for each of its operating departments, and those people sometimes (not always) become defensive about their turf. Alpha techies seem to come in two forms: those who will read a manual, and those who won't. The former can be a joy to work with, as they love to acquire new knowledge and skills they can bring to a production. The latter can be maddening, as they not only miss the chance to make full use of their equipment, they also tend to resist input from anyone who might look up what they don't already know.

But hey, life's like that. You deal with it.

I will say this for Samson gear, my old highschool purchased a Samson XP1000 to use for events outside of the theatre, around the same time, they purchased a pair of Behringer EPQ2000s from a seperate local dealer.

In the course of three years, both of the Behringer EPQ2000s failed, while the XP1000 soldiers on despite having a much tougher service life, despite being constantly driven much closer to it's maximum rating than the Behringer amps ever were given that it's got half (500W vs 1000W) at 4 Ohms.

I should mention that the second EPQ2000 somehow leaked enough power out of it's 1/4" input to brightly illuminate the automotive lamp used as driver protection in one of our speakers when a technician reaching around the unit accidentally plugged the speaker into the 1/4" input instead of the output. It was brief enough the speaker managed to come out unscathed though...

Oh right, after the second of the amps failed, the Samson unit started pulling double duty and became the emergency amplifier for the theatre's audio system.

Curiously, it still works perfectly fine.
Also curiously, the dealer forgot to mention that Behringer had discontinued these units during the process of "recommending" the pair of them over the similarly priced and specced amplifiers that replaced them in the product stack.

I'm not bitter or anything...

That reminds me, I've had terrible luck with Behringer amplifiers in general, at least their old designs anyway.

For the most recent show at my college, i had wired up program sound from a microphone a colleague had mounted in the makeshift blackbox theatre (It used to be a TV broadcast studio before their program shut down and ours began) and so i grabbed a Behringer powered studio monitor (Truth series) and fed it on a feed out from our mixer. For some reason, the power supply failed a few days into our run. I swapped out the monitor for It's matched unit, but it too failed a few days later. Baffled, I wondered if if was being fed garbage power, but it was the exact same source as the mixer and the rack mount containing our gates, EQs, and compressors.

After questioning my sanity to make sure I wasn't doing something incorrectly that could cause them to fail, it was replaced with a powered studio monitor from a different company, (Yorkville if I'm not mistaken?) that monitor worked perfectly for the rest of the run without any issues.

EdSavoie said:

I will say this for Samson gear, my old highschool purchased a Samson XP1000 to use for events outside of the theatre, around the same time, they purchased a pair of Behringer EPQ2000s from a seperate local dealer.

In the course of three years, both of the Behringer EPQ2000s failed, while the XP1000 soldiers on...

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I think every field with multiple vendors eventually generates stories of success and of failure for each of them. I'm no laissez faire capitalist but one thing the free market does pretty well when there is real competition is weed out the real bad ones. Samson opened for business in 1980, and their first product was a wireless microphone. If they were constantly selling nothing but junk, they'd be long gone by now.

Also in every field, I've noticed that "low end" equipment can generally be made to do the job you need, if you can give it the TLC required. Not everyone is willing to do that. I just did a show recently in a theater with a very high-end Comcast wireless intercom. Amazing system! Crystal clear audio, batteries lasted forever, good range. No problems of any kind. And, like a lot of Comcast gear, the body packs were engineered to withstand a direct nuclear strike. I've certainly seen crew on some shows that were close to the equivalent of that: dropping the packs, yanking on the cables, bumping into them with mallets, and so on. Of course, you could buy a Tesla Model 3 for the cost of ten sets. But, if you have a harsh environment, nothing else will survive.

For whatever reason, my colleagues and the actors we work with just seem to get it when we tell them, "Treat this gently, okay?"

Comcast? The cable TV sloth/giant? Or ClearCom?

TimMc said:

Comcast? The cable TV sloth/giant? Or ClearCom?

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Oh, my. Yes, ClearCom. Sheesh. FreeSpeak II system. Can't say enough good things about it. It's here.

I hope the Samson Concert stuff works well for you. And We'd all love a little of your review of your expereince with it on this forum!

To your sub post about inexpensive and vs premium gear.:
I work full time at a college arts center that operates as rental venue. I work with lots of groups through out the year, and also freelance on the side. So I have a small sole proprioteryship type bussiness and own a little bit of my own gear. Enought that I can keep it stashed in a corner of my office at the theater. In addition to a console and some powered speakers I've picked up a number of wireless systems.

I started by piecing together ebay sales to put together a system of 4 Sennehesier EW100's(Gen 1/Gen 2 stuff) about 5 years ago. I then increased it with 6 more (gen 3) used system purchased from a fellow CB board member. Bought 4 more new of the EW100's (gen 3). And just in the last 6 months invested in a JTS R4 system, which I've been very happy with.

I initially got in to owning wireless mics simply for my own sanity and time. I frequently was going to venues where they maybe had 8 but really needed 12. or had 12 but really need 16-20. So I built up over time looking to supplement those places I did work as a freelancer. (it generally made my life easier as we could put people in mics that otherwise wouldn't be and helped me mix a better show or have backups available if there where problems with the (sometimes very poorly maintained in house systems.)

Having worked with Shure BLX/SLX, AT 2000-3000 series stuff. I find it frustrating to work with for setting up from scratch or intergrating othering things with them.
For systems that stay put or get used only with them selves, or never need more then 10-12 systems running the Shure SLX is the cheapest/least expensive systems I'd buy. (sound wise, i don't have i feel they are on par with the BLX but have more useful features and flexibility.)

IMHO the Sennheiser EW100 or the JTS R4 series hits the perfect price point and features set that makes my life easier for using the systems all together or integrating them with insisting installs. I don't think most places need gear priced over about 600-650 per system. and as a testament to the Gen1/Gen 2 EW100's (Gen 1 receivers, all my transmitters are Gen 2 or gen 3)I have..... They still work flawlessly. Now I don't rent them out on many jobs that I'm not also doing sound for. There are a few exception for light case use or if i know the TD or Sound person that will be overseeing their care. more expensive stuff is belt better. Though the traditional failure points are still there, namely connector into the pack, and the element wire into the element connector. I do prefer the Senneheiser 1/8th locking over the Shure/JTS R4 mini xlr. (the mini xlr on the JTS is my second whiney nitpick i have for it right now.)

Aaron Becker said:

Many years ago I was the sound designer on a large show for a school. We had a failing wireless system in the house - and had been renting for several years as a result. We rented 24 systems from a reputable rental house in town - but my placement of the receivers combined with their non-directional stock antennas provided by the rental house made opening weekend an almost complete blowout due to dropouts and RF issues. I assume a room full of interference (audience) didn't help either. By the third night I "borrowed" some paddle antennas from another facility I had access to and saved the 3rd of 6 shows. (Had I not done this, I probably would've been fired from the show.) All the issues immediately ceased.

I called the rental house on the next Monday and asked for them to provide me some paddles (since the ones I had acquired for one day were not available for the second weekend of shows). They asked if they could come out to the site and see if they could identify a problem with my setup, since they promised it should've worked as sent. At first they tried to blame my frequency coordination, but I explained that their initial coordination did not account for my IEM systems, house listening assist, wireless intercoms, etc. They conceded and provided me with paddles free of charge for the rest of my shows, and added to our account that we always got paddles at no additional cost for our shows. Needless to say, the rest of the shows went off without a hitch.

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WADR to everyone involved: who the hell tries to run 24 channels of wireless mic without log-periodic antennas and the appropriate amplification?

Jay Ashworth said:

WADR to everyone involved: who the hell tries to run 24 channels of wireless mic without log-periodic antennas and the appropriate amplification?

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@Jay Ashworth The scary thing is it probably works for those who don't know it shouldn't.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

Stevens R. Miller said:

Oh, my. Yes, ClearCom. Sheesh. FreeSpeak II system. Can't say enough good things about it. It's here.

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We're into our second year with FSII.

Two problems:

Our A talk button, most used, has gone intermittent on one of 5 beltpacks (and maybe 2; not sure), and

The swivel mute switches on the lightweight headsets we got with them have failed 3 out of 5 now, and they're apparently either expensive or impossible to fix. I'll stick with my PL-88...

Otherwise, though, very nice. There's a *bit* more idle static than I'd like, and ti seems to be transmitter-side, but I'll still take 'em.

Jay Ashworth said:

There's a *bit* more idle static than I'd like, and ti seems to be transmitter-side, but I'll still take 'em.

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We noticed that too. Only happens on transmit, and we tend to leave them PTT mode (less chance that the sly remarks we make to each other in the booth will leak out to a larger audience). A little surprising for a digital device. Makes you wonder where it originates.

RonHebbard said:

Jay Ashworth said:

WADR to everyone involved: who the hell tries to run 24 channels of wireless mic without log-periodic antennas and the appropriate amplification?

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The scary thing is it probably works for those who don't know it shouldn't.

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That would likely be me. Good time to live by own words and admit I'm ignorant: What are the likely problems in running 24 wireless microphones at the same time?

Stevens R. Miller said:

That would likely be me. Good time to live by own words and admit I'm ignorant: What are the likely problems in running 24 wireless microphones at the same time?

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The Antenna Farm creates reception problems. It's the proximity of the individual antennae to one another. @Jay Ashworth is saying a system of this many receivers needs LPDA or other external (and likely directional) antennas placed optimally and feeding a signal distribution system to drive the receivers.

Yeah, it represents additional complexity and spending. If you can physically separate your receivers a bit (say a couple of feet between pairs of receivers) you'll lessen the potential problem but you'll never improve upon the pair of 1/4 wave antennas on the receiver. External antennas give you much better placement options, and having a selection of antennas with different patterns adds to your ability to work in less favorable RF environments (but you're a radio amateur, so you know about this already ).

Don't get me wrong, Stevens, I understand that the piggy bank has a limit. My point was to look at what's around your target price point and then audition, as manufacturers don't take identical shortcuts to reach the same price point.

The problem with separate antennas for each receiver is this: Every receiver has one or more local oscillators that convert the received signal to an intermediate frequency. A tiny bit of RF from that oscillator radiates out the antenna. Another receiver picks up some of that LO frequency energy from the first receiver and mixes it in, and now you have self generated interference. The problems multiply as you add more receivers. By using antenna splitters, you are isolating the receivers so they don't pollute each other.

TimMc said:

External antennas give you much better placement options, and having a selection of antennas with different patterns adds to your ability to work in less favorable RF environments (but you're a radio amateur, so you know about this already ).

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Heh. We all know it's nice to put your antenna high and in the clear. My shack tends not to have 24 receivers going at once, so some of this is new to me.

My only advice on less pricy wireless mics is to listen carefully to the output for hidden compressors or companders.

Even pricy ones too...

We got a few expensive ENG sets once from a famous manufacturer that had awful companding. It required circuit card surgery to defeat.

The engineers at S@#y were confused why we'd want to defeat this...

Maybe because it sounded like a 500# ogre breathing heavily into a telephone?

Ancient Engineer said:

My only advice on less pricy wireless mics is to listen carefully to the output for hidden compressors or companders.

Even pricy ones too...

We got a few expensive ENG sets once from a famous manufacturer that had awful companding. It required circuit card surgery to defeat.

The engineers at S@#y were confused why we'd want to defeat this...

Maybe because it sounded like a 500# ogre breathing heavily into a telephone?

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Just a wild guess, but I wonder if those S@#y products could have been tuned for a typical voice in J@?@n. I was surprised to find out that a video game controller I bought recently had a switch on it that the instructions simply said was to choose between the way westerners tend to us them, and the way easterners do. No more about it than that, but if a game controller has an east/west mode selector, a compander might too.

Going wildly off-topic here, but the discussion about Rx-to-Rx interference has me wondering: if I separate my antennas with cable, what kind of coax do people suggest I use? I have a ton of RG-58, but that gets lossy at UHF. Would RG-8 be adequate? Something better? (Been some years since I was involved in this aspect of radio, so maybe my questions reflect out-of-date assumptions.)

Stevens R. Miller said:

Going wildly off-topic here, but the discussion about Rx-to-Rx interference has me wondering: if I separate my antennas with cable, what kind of coax do people suggest I use? I have a ton of RG-58, but that gets lossy at UHF. Would RG-8 be adequate? Something better? (Been some years since I was involved in this aspect of radio, so maybe my questions reflect out-of-date assumptions.)

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Times Microwave LMR240 or LMR400 or similar low-loss cable. I spec 240 for short runs (50 ft or less).

Just do the math. Look at the loss (dB/100 ft). If the loss for the actual length used is less than 3-4 dB, don't worry about it. If it's a long run, you would benefit from better cable.