CeeForm or Cam-lok?

Is CeeForm (or I've seen it spelled C-form) mostly a non-US thing? Most power distros I see here have Cam-lok (make that Camlock or Cam-lok too) feeder cables from the company switch or generator (5 for a 3 phase system) to the dimmer beach.

Is CeeForm something I should consider if I expand our dimmer beach? And is it the same thing what are the various connectors of CeeForm for? Phases? But it seems like there is a 3 pin, 4 pin, 5 pin, and 6 pin in which case it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

The definition here says it is similar to "pin and sleeve" but I don't have much experience with what that is used for either. I mainly work with Camlok and Soca

See: https://thepowersite.co.uk/distribution-box-1-e-suitable-for-15-25kva-generators# for my confusion

It's not something you'll see often in the US. Bandit (I think) was the only big company that uses much of it. Other than them the only time I really see it is on an occasional motor controller, or on a tour that's come over from another country. Most companies use some form of twist lock connector to power racks with power draws small enough to not require cams. Personally I wouldn't consider it. I would rather have something that I could easily replace. And closer to something more standard in the industry from potential cross compatibility. Though there isn't exactly a shortage of companies in this industry doing things in non standard ways just to be non standard.

Cee-form is a brand of "pin and sleeve" connector. Generally in Europe, red connectors are three phase, blue are single phase, and yellow are low voltage. Most common sizes are 125amp, 63 amp, 32 amp and 16 amp. It is standard in Europe, but you don't see it much in the U.S. In Europe, the blue 16a single phase 240v connectors are pretty standard as fixture power. The bulk and captive locking caps make in line connectors for break-out looms bulky and unwieldy. If jumpers have to be extended, the caps and connectors tend to snag on everything when pulling the looms off and coiling. I prefer L6-20 to Cee-form any day for on truss applications. As a replacement for L21-30, the 32a 3ph Cee is a decent replacement and I have no problem with either.

For your application, I wouldn't bother with it. Even if you are expecting a European tour, unless you have a step up transformer, your Cee-form stuff will still be wrong voltages.

RB

Good to know. Looks like I'll be deciding how many L5-15, L6-20, and L6-15s to spec when the upgrade comes around. Sticking with Soca and Cams with the right amount of looms and fan-outs to True1/PowerCon/Twist should be sufficient.

IanTech said:

Is CeeForm (or I've seen it spelled C-form) mostly a non-US thing? Most power distros I see here have Cam-lok (make that Camlock or Cam-lok too) feeder cables from the company switch or generator (5 for a 3 phase system) to the dimmer beach.

Is CeeForm something I should consider if I expand our dimmer beach? And is it the same thing what are the various connectors of CeeForm for? Phases? But it seems like there is a 3 pin, 4 pin, 5 pin, and 6 pin in which case it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

The definition here says it is similar to "pin and sleeve" but I don't have much experience with what that is used for either. I mainly work with Camlok and Soca

See: https://thepowersite.co.uk/distribution-box-1-e-suitable-for-15-25kva-generators# for my confusion

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@IanTech In my shop days (Early 1990's) we built all of the 9 pin ball machines for 'Tommy' four times and the entire production twice. Every thing on our side of the pond (Canada & U.S.) was Cam-lok and twist. Offenbach / Frankfurt, Germany wanted Cee-Forms. We packaged the 24 AC servo drive controllers as three rolling racks each the size of an upright piano with 125 amp 5 pin recessed male Cee-forms as the power input for each of the three racks. Oh what fun when we loaded our racks into Offenbach. The German's had to do some serious scouring to find three 125 amp 5 contact female connectors to power our racks. The German producer demanded Cee-forms and we delivered. On our side of the pond our drives were capable of operating on 120 / 208 volt 3 phase. (For which we needed the 125 amp connectors) on their side of the pond, in their 230 volt world we could have easily used the more common 100 amp connectors. The German producer checked with his experts and decreed we had to supply Cee-Forms. It was fun watching them sweat when they had to find mating connectors.
A year later we built all of 'Tommy' again, for London, England this time. For this production we packaged the 24 AC servo drives as six physically smaller racks housing four drives per rack and powered each rack with smaller Cam-loks. We provided a matching distro fed by five bare-ended Cam-lok tails. The British had no problems dealing with this.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

IanTech said:

Looks like I'll be deciding how many L5-15, L6-20, and L6-15s to spec...

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If it were me, I'd just stock the first two. Anything that needs L6-15 can use L6-20.
" 'Big twist'=208V and 'little twist"=120V' "
is easy to remember, and avoids the confusion and heartache of having two different configurations of the same physical size.

Note that Christie Lites does the opposite: L5-20 for 120V conventionals and L6-15 for 208V moving lights.
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Back when VLPS (Vari*Lite) was in business, all their hoists used red Ceeform for power and yellow Ceeform for control, instead of the much more common "double-Hubbell". We called them "mustard and ketchup motors".

Interesting, I didn't know the name of these connectors was called Cee-form.
In a few Hyatts and Hiltons I worked in, they had Cee-forms in ballrooms that were designed for power drops but wanted it to be discrete. Then they had cee-form to cam pigtails to get into the distro.

macsound said:

Interesting, I didn't know the name of these connectors was called Cee-form.
In a few Hyatts and Hiltons I worked in, they had Cee-forms in ballrooms that were designed for power drops but wanted it to be discrete. Then they had cee-form to cam pigtails to get into the distro.

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@macsound In Canada we sourced all of our Cee-Forms from a Pass and Seymour distributor. 'Tommy' for Offenbach / Frankfurt was in 1995 with 'Tommy' London, England the following year in 1996. Previously to both, we'd rebuilt the 9 pin ball machines for one of the U.S. tours which originally had them built by a 'low bidder' and was less than pleased. On the strength of our replacement machines we won the toss for Germany and the U.K.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

derekleffew said:

If it were me, I'd just stock the first two. Anything that needs L6-15 can use L6-20.
" 'Big twist'=208V and 'little twist"=120V' "
is easy to remember, and avoids the confusion and heartache of having two different configurations of the same physical size.

Note that Christie Lites does the opposite: L5-20 for 120V conventionals and L6-15 for 208V moving lights.

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As much as it pains me to say this, I'd probably stay consistent with Christie in this case. I think it's much more likely you'll want the full 20amps for 120v loads than for 208.

Ian Tech, where are you located? East Bay and your source bring up the possibility of other than the US to ask.
EDIT by Mod.: In Ian's case, "East Bay"=East San Francisco Bay, aka Oakland/Berkeley California, USA. @IanTech , stay away from sites ending in .uk or .eu .

If US, CamLoc is still the standard for 400A in the industry here. PowerLoc 400A is the standard for feeder in Europe. After that you get into CeeForm for sub-connectors... a brand but kind of a standard like Hubbell is mostly a standard "Hubbell Twist" here.

What voltage are you planning for your outputs, and how many Euro tours are you planning to house verses domestic ones?

For the most part, if 120/208v Wye wiring, you want CamLoc and probably L6-20 outlets for 208v power. More of a standard than L6-15 especially if breakered for 20 Amp. If providing 416/230v Wye wiring as per Europe, you want PowerLoc and CeeForm.

Providing PowerLoc and CeeForm for outputs for the most part would be a mistake unless also providing a large +75KVA transformer say in pre-providing such outlets with 416/230v power. What mostly from Europe wants to plug into those plugs wants 230V not 208V. If voltage ranging lights/gear that has a range from 120v-240v.... it is much more simple to provide standard US outlets if in the US, and make adaptors to CeeForm. That way you are standard in providing power for 120/208 volts in outlets.

Correction to Derek's post. Big Twist, Little Twist fine for term but within bounds of voltage.

NEMA Code designates the "L" means Locking. "5" as 120v and "6" as 208v. Following that is the amperage rating "15" or "20" Amps. So a L5-15 is a 15Amp Twistlock 120v "Little Twist" plug A L5-20 is a 20Amp Twistlock 120v "Big Twist.) By his defination. Same concept for the L6-15 and L6-20 but for 208VAC.

Big question is for the L21-30 verses the L21-20 outlet if to specify for smaller loads or often hoists. Where I work is L6-15 above in spec. hold over from the 70's and I would specify L6-20 in general as correct for others. Easy enough to make another adaptor.

L21-30 for three phase 120/208v Wye power we use and much of the industry does, but you still find those using L21-20 outputs. The L21-20 is not the optimum outlet to use other than if specific for amperage usage of something. More adaptors for touring needs.

And or, as opposed to making a bunch of adaptors... specify what you have and the tour will probably pre-plan in bringing what they need to adapt with. Bins full of adaptors where I work, even some converting 120v to 208v and the reverse (non labeled as ours). If they have Euro gear, possibly adaptors will be needed, or you might need a transformer.

Working on outfitting a leg of a large Euro tour for the fall now. Following Euro standards, they would want our AC Distro racks PowerLoc. But there is more to it than just changing the inlets, different higher standard breakers are also common for use. So it might in debate be cheaper to just buy Euro Distro racks for the tour compliance. Getting more complex to world tour stuff these days. Almost need two different systems, and indeed now stock many 120/208v Step up and step down to 416/230v transformers of various sizes for stuff not auto ranging in transformers. Doubt in a house you should worry about providing such gear - tour's responsibility or perhaps with your help.

Generally, if your building has it, it's cheaper to step down from 480V to 416Y/230V than up from 208Y/120V (smaller feeders and breakers). But if they need 50hz you get into a world of fun.

ship said:

Ian Tech, where are you located? ...

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Yeah, I'm located in CA and am not expecting very many Euro tours, but I am the type of person to be prepared and get it right the first time. 120V/208V is the standard that will be used. Currently a Twistlock ETC Smartpack Dimmed venue with a small lunchbox distro for 208 via camlok and soca. As we move more to LED, having a more powerful and flexibe distro solution is what we are looking in to. For example, we'd probably do Soca to True1 to incorporate the newer fixtures and provide more Soca drops throughout our grid

IanTech said:

Yeah, I'm located in CA and am not expecting very many Euro tours, but I am the type of person to be prepared and get it right the first time. 120V/208V is the standard that will be used. Currently a Twistlock ETC Smartpack Dimmed venue with a small lunchbox distro for 208 via camlok and soca. As we move more to LED, having a more powerful and flexibe distro solution is what we are looking in to. For example, we'd probably do Soca to True1 to incorporate the newer fixtures and provide more Soca drops throughout our grid

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Which brings up another point. Should we fill our stage boxes with True1 or stick with PowerCon or edison? What is the best way to get non-dimmed power to the ETC Source 4 Lustrs we will be purchasing? They are still the old PowerCon, so coming from a non-dimmed circuit of twistlock and converting to PowerCon? (Probably by way of setting our ETC Smartpacks to Non-dim?)

Is L5-15 common? Every theatre and TV studio with twists that I've been in (mind you that's not a large number compared to most here) has been L5-20 or, in one instance, the older "grounds out" variant.

eadler said:

Is L5-15 common? Every theatre and TV studio with twists that I've been in (mind you that's not a large number compared to most here) has been L5-20 or, in one instance, the older "grounds out" variant.

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@eadler In the scheme of things, probably not. I've two comments:
a; In 1953 an amateur theatre in my area built a brand new building from the basement foundations up and standardized on L5-15's for three reasons:
1; They wanted a locking connector.
2; They wanted a unique connector in an era when other amateur groups in our area were either house hold, grounded house hold or stage pin.
3; The L5-15's were available in duplex females thus either two circuits fit in a standard single gang back box or, if you chose not to split them, every duplex became a built in two / fer.
b; I may be incorrect but I believe ETC standardized on L5-15's for dimmer doubling installations.
In our area, the L5-20's were popularized by touring rock groups.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

IanTech said:

Which brings up another point. Should we fill our stage boxes with True1 or stick with PowerCon or edison? What is the best way to get non-dimmed power to the ETC Source 4 Lustrs we will be purchasing? They are still the old PowerCon, so coming from a non-dimmed circuit of twistlock and converting to PowerCon? (Probably by way of setting our ETC Smartpacks to Non-dim?)

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It's a crap shoot. You can bet that Neutrik is already engineering a new connector or 3.

As my buddy Ivan Beaver (Danley Sound Labs) says, "the great thing about having standards is there are so many to choose from."

With that in mind, whatever you decide, there will be 3 or 4 other connectors in use before your next upgrade cycle. In our local PAC they went to 12/19 Soca runs (6 per electric) with stage pin fanouts to match up with existing venue inventory. Since that renovation a few years ago, the PAC has purchased a number of LED fixtures and Edison outlet stringers; the Edison stuff tails down to a 120v sub panel at deck level, installed for the LEDs.

Infrastructure is the expensive part; the adapters, outlet boxes and fanouts are less money even if you have to modify or replace them down the road. Get whatever works with the majority of the fixtures you have now and are likely to purchase in the near future (12 months).

DO NOT park dimmers at 100% and power LED fixutres, movers, or any load that is not 100% resistance in nature.

TimMc said:

It's a crap shoot. You can bet that Neutrik is already engineering a new connector or 3.

As my buddy Ivan Beaver (Danley Sound Labs) says, "the great thing about having standards is there are so many to choose from."

With that in mind, whatever you decide, there will be 3 or 4 other connectors in use before your next upgrade cycle. In our local PAC they went to 12/19 Soca runs (6 per electric) with stage pin fanouts to match up with existing venue inventory. Since that renovation a few years ago, the PAC has purchased a number of LED fixtures and Edison outlet stringers; the Edison stuff tails down to a 120v sub panel at deck level, installed for the LEDs.

Infrastructure is the expensive part; the adapters, outlet boxes and fanouts are less money even if you have to modify or replace them down the road. Get whatever works with the majority of the fixtures you have now and are likely to purchase in the near future (12 months).

DO NOT park dimmers at 100% and power LED fixutres, movers, or any load that is not 100% resistance in nature.

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Yeah, I will let my qualified electrician have the final say. I believe the SmartPacks have a non-dim constant power switch/module dimmer bypass. I could be wrong, haven't yet moved on to that part yet, still looking into the various types of Twistlock that's out there.

I mean L21-30 and L23-60? There's so many different types for 30 amps 3 phase instead of feeder cable. Where are those usually used at?

L21-30 is common for mid-intensity shore power. 208Y/120V at 30A per phase. Can power dimmer boxes, motors, AV, pretty much anything.
L23-60 won't likely be found south of the Canadian border and almost nowhere outside industrial facilities. It's 600Y/347V at 60A per phase. That voltage is highly restricted by code, even more than the 480V family. I didn't even know that plug existed until I checked my reference.

tjrobb said:

L21-30 is common for mid-intensity shore power. 208Y/120V at 30A per phase. Can power dimmer boxes, motors, AV, pretty much anything.
L23-60 won't likely be found south of the Canadian border and almost nowhere outside industrial facilities. It's 600Y/347V at 60A per phase. That voltage is highly restricted by code, even more than the 480V family. I didn't even know that plug existed until I checked my reference.

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@tjrobb Up here north of the walls we see very little 277 / 480 outside of steel mills that utilize American equipment.
We have 120 / 208 everywhere you do on your side of the walls then we jump to 347 / 600 not only for larger motors but for fluoresents in office towers as well since 12 gauge copper on 20 amp breakers can run so many more fixtures per circuit at 347. We even have device boxes with slightly different mounting centres for 347 volt switches in an attempt to keep well intentioned amateurs from replacing 347 volt switches with normal 120 / 240 volt switches. We also have 1110 boxes with 347 volt device centers and only two 1/2 knock-outs. We also have single gang blank covers with 347 volt device centers to cover single gang 347 volt back boxes.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

TimMc said:

It's a crap shoot. You can bet that Neutrik is already engineering a new connector or 3.

As my buddy Ivan Beaver (Danley Sound Labs) says, "the great thing about having standards is there are so many to choose from."

With that in mind, whatever you decide, there will be 3 or 4 other connectors in use before your next upgrade cycle. In our local PAC they went to 12/19 Soca runs (6 per electric) with stage pin fanouts to match up with existing venue inventory. Since that renovation a few years ago, the PAC has purchased a number of LED fixtures and Edison outlet stringers; the Edison stuff tails down to a 120v sub panel at deck level, installed for the LEDs.

Infrastructure is the expensive part; the adapters, outlet boxes and fanouts are less money even if you have to modify or replace them down the road. Get whatever works with the majority of the fixtures you have now and are likely to purchase in the near future (12 months).

DO NOT park dimmers at 100% and power LED fixutres, movers, or any load that is not 100% resistance in nature.

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Just looked it up and the True1 did pass UL cert, so technically it's more viable than the old blue powerCON was for stage box installation. Maybe @BillConnerFASTC knows? Are people installing True1 for new installs?