Does Brightness/intensity matter.

ACTSTech

Well-Known Member
I’m a non-lighting guy, but I’m trying to learn, so excuse my stupid questions.

In the old days, I’d watch lighting guys set up their 1k PAR 64s and ellipsoidals for concerts. It was always “even wash” except for specials. When I got involved in theatre, it was basically similar, just different instruments, even washes, no hotspots. Specials will always be specials.

Someone pointed me in the direction of some sample lighting plots, as well as archived Broadway plots. I’m reading them and trying to make sense, but I’m a little confused. Is there a “floor” for lux/lumens/fc that’s considered minimum? The symphony usually asked for a minimum of 100 fc (I know, I speak in ancient terms) for concerts without stand lamps, and our usual director for the community group seemed to think 150 was a good brightness for regular scenes. Obviously night or special effects are different.

Since I have zero training in professional theatre, is there a magic number that exists? I go to see shows, and I understand the difference in color temperature, but what I don’t understand is how some of these plots are bright enough, yet seem to work. I ordered a few college texts, just waiting for them, but sometimes they don’t explain the real world. Any help is appreciated.
 
For theater. No. There really is no standard, and it's not needed. 100fc is the defacto standard for broadcast TV lighting, but that actually may be high with the quality and sensitivity of modern camera; You can get away with less. 150 FC for a theater scene would be appropriate if the scene takes place on the Sun. Consider that typical office lighting is around 20-30 fc. the main thing is whatever level you are using, you don't want a lot of variation if you are looking for a smooth even wash across the stage. Keep in mind that often designers are NOT trying to produce an even wash, but may be establishing a mood, time of day, location, etc. The human eye can see a vast range of light, from almost pitch-black to midday sun, but not at the same time; we see these things separately and our brain interprets all of those images into one perceived vision. A camera cannot do that, so something that looks great in person can look awful on the screen.
 
For theater. No. There really is no standard, and it's not needed. 100fc is the defacto standard for broadcast TV lighting, but that actually may be high with the quality and sensitivity of modern camera; You can get away with less. 150 FC for a theater scene would be appropriate if the scene takes place on the Sun. Consider that typical office lighting is around 20-30 fc. the main thing is whatever level you are using, you don't want a lot of variation if you are looking for a smooth even wash across the stage. Keep in mind that often designers are NOT trying to produce an even wash, but may be establishing a mood, time of day, location, etc. The human eye can see a vast range of light, from almost pitch-black to midday sun, but not at the same time; we see these things separately and our brain interprets all of those images into one perceived vision. A camera cannot do that, so something that looks great in person can look awful on the screen.
Also; you may choose to high-light / pull focus / draw attention to certain performers during specific scenes while simultaneously permitting secondary performers (such a butlers and serving wenches standing idly by) to call slightly less attention to themselves:
Rather than doing this by always boosting levels, it's VERY often less distracting to reduce intensities in other areas by 5 - 10% over 30 to 40 seconds resulting in ever so subtly shifting an audience's focus without them realizing you're doing so and / or calling attention to your lighting and away from the performers.
Few patrons exit humming either the set or lighting; along with costumes and props, lighting, sound, costumes and scenery exist to SUPPORT the performers NOT (other than in rock concerts and other similar SPECTACLE events) to call attention to themselves and AWAY FROM the cast.
(I'll descend from my podium and relinquish DVS's lectern. )
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
Thanks for the input so far everyone. Like I’ve said, I’m old school, so the punch of the old 1k par64s is what I got used to seeing. The venue we had wasn’t very versatile, so our first FOH was 11 feet from the lip of the stage and the second was 26 feet. I guess because I had no training, brighter equaled better? Maybe that’s why I’m afraid of LED fixtures, because I’m looking at photometry and seeing such low outputs.

It was my understanding that old dimmers worked hardest at 33 and 66 percent, I guess I always thought to not work them around those, but I do understand the point of changing levels to change attention. Our venue didn’t exactly have the stage space to create different areas for acting, so we never really did much other than gel differently. Neither I nor the community group can afford some of the lighting programs, but I guess I’ll try to use numbers to understand. Thanks again.
 
For live theatre, 60fc can be a good "all purpose" minimum that's enough to do a variety of things. I think that's what Steve Shelley uses in his text. But yeah, no rules other than do what gives you what you need for the look.
 
Over and above the old axioms "Bright for comedy, dim for tragedy" and "You can't hear what you can't see," there really aren't a lot of rules, and the only time I have ever had to bring out a light meter is when I had to adapt a theatre design that was being recorded for broadcast. Your eyes will be your best judge. And I find that the smaller the space, the lower light values I can get away with.
 
I saw South Pacific in NY and for their outdoor scenes, they had a bank of 4 10Ks up SR that simulated the sun. Compared to the romantic scenes, obviously ridiculously bright. The only time I've personally used a 10k was to simulate sunrise coming through a window for a film shoot.
 
In one of my other posts, I talked about a bunch of LED fixtures we had that weren’t strong enough to light anything once they were hung. I guess I still have anxiety over that.

Our ellipsoidals on full are about 170, so gelled I suppose would be less. Also, once we finally got the blackout curtains for the windows, that made a difference with the lights. Keep the posts coming, I’m making copious notes.
 
I used a light meter and worried about fc readings quite a bit when shooting film but never for stage work. Coming from black, 10 fc will look "bright." When coming from 100 fc, 80 fc will look "dim." For the stage it all depends on the scene, time of day, desired look of the weather, mood of the play/opera and what the director's trying to do. And scene brightness can start out pretty low, to the point where the audience is squinting and trying to see what's in front of them, then sneaking up higher for better visibility after you've established that it's midnight with no moon. As others have said above, think selective visibility. (Thank you, Mr. McCandless.) Use your light to emphasize what is important. Relatively brighter areas within a scene will draw attention to themselves; relatively darker areas will recede. I've done 15 minute scenes in opera with 2 dozen cues, many overlapping, and many for 30-count durations or longer, moving focus around as the action and music moved it. (I'm sorry; I can't tell you how to write such cues for an operator. I'v always been my own board operator, sometimes with one assistant., running the show while watching it and adjusting things "by ear" as the performances vary from night to night.) (And a hint: For musical comedy, keep your maximum on fast numbers a little below "100%" ("0" on the old piano boards) so that you have something to "punch" the ends of numbers with.)

In short, "paint" your stage picture and set levels without a light meter as they "feel" right to you and to satisfy the director.
 
The last show I lit the MD and I were chatting. He said he was surprised at how much lighting I didn't use and it looked great . Light to what looks good. I have found that if there is a light coloured item on one side of the stage you might need to reduce light on that side because of reflected light makes it look brighter. I think peter pan was one occasion that I used a lower light in the nursery scene because there was a big light coloured bed so had to balance it out.
Regards
Geoff
 
I've done 15 minute scenes in opera with 2 dozen cues, many overlapping, and many for 30-count durations or longer, moving focus around as the action and music moved it. (I'm sorry; I can't tell you how to write such cues for an operator. I'v always been my own board operator, sometimes with one assistant., running the show while watching it and adjusting things "by ear" as the performances vary from night to night.)
Assistant? You mean the straight plays where I’m sound lights spotlight guy would be easier if I had an assistant? Thank god we don’t have a clear-com, I’d confuse myself calling cues to myself...

I understand what people are saying. I don’t walk around with a light meter, just we always used certain numbers as reference, or more accurately lights, lamps and fixtures. Obviously an ungelled par will be brighter than my red, blue, or 181, so if I want the color to come through, I can’t run a white at full. But reading a broadway plot I have, the main washes for the stage are a ChromaQ Colorforce 72 and MAC viper washes. Just looking at numbers, it seems like the ChromaQ’s would be pretty much worthless except for maybe bounce or when there’s no lights on at all, but maybe I’m just naive. I admit, I have no experience with pro LEDs, just the ones that are el-cheapo that claim to be pro (which are great doorstops)
 
When looking at a lighting plot and trying to decipher the designer's usecase, assume the worst possible situation. Lets say those viper washes could be useful for a few things, but maybe there's a "blacklight" scene. Drop the UV filter in and that 1000watt arc lamp looks like a maglight.
 
When looking at a lighting plot and trying to decipher the designer's usecase, assume the worst possible situation. Lets say those viper washes could be useful for a few things, but maybe there's a "blacklight" scene. Drop the UV filter in and that 1000watt arc lamp looks like a maglight.
Absolutely understand that. It’s like learning a different language for me, that’s all, and I appreciate the tutoring.

It’s no different than someone like Daryl Hall wanting a special backlight gelled in R02 that will cut through the wash, either dim the fronts if they’re too hot or get a brighter lamp for the special. As a sound guy, I’d be the first to say louder is not always better, some of my better mixes have just a smidge of reinforcement here and there, so I get the comparison.

Like I said in another post, our old venue was tiny, and the board was researching getting old MAC 2K profiles. I feel like at an 18 foot trim, that would be enough to melt off the actors faces, and I guess I have the fear of running things that I’m not familiar with. I’m glad I’m getting good info here, but sometimes the info is overwhelming. It’s hard to teach a sound guy new lighting tricks.
 
Unless you are dealing with people's ability to read music (or something else), light levels are only relative. Put a man in a light-less cave for two days and even a candle will be blindingly bright. It is a question of what the audience has been exposed to before the show, how long it has been since that exposure, and what ambient light may be in the room that serves as a distraction. Rock shows are a little different. Often the point of reference may be the pyro or other special effects. Generally, the sky is the limit!
 
The only time I bring up illuminance in this way, other than for reading music/text or for camera, is as a way to provide a rule of thumb for inexperienced designers who are selecting fixtures for an application. If a student of mine tries to plot a wash with a 50' throw using S450 575s, it helps to be able to point at the photometric data to explain why even though the cones of light covered the area, they're not going to work because 17fc before filtering isn't much to work with. So giving them some concept of what's a broadly useful illuminance can help them not make mistakes we might think of as rudimentary "duh" issues but for which the inexperienced designer needs a degree of trial and error to understand otherwise. Note that this application of illuminance figures is on paper only - no meter required.

LED sources have certainly complicated this...
 
The only time I bring up illuminance in this way, other than for reading music/text or for camera, is as a way to provide a rule of thumb for inexperienced designers who are selecting fixtures for an application. If a student of mine tries to plot a wash with a 50' throw using S450 575s, it helps to be able to point at the photometric data to explain why even though the cones of light covered the area, they're not going to work because 17fc before filtering isn't much to work with. So giving them some concept of what's a broadly useful illuminance can help them not make mistakes we might think of as rudimentary "duh" issues but for which the inexperienced designer needs a degree of trial and error to understand otherwise. Note that this application of illuminance figures is on paper only - no meter required.

LED sources have certainly complicated this...
And coming from a music background, watching concerts (rock, jazz, blues, symphony, etc) being lighted, it was a different beast. But like you said, looking at the photometric data on sheets, I could say that this fixt at this trim would be bright enough or comparable, or like the case of the LEDs, not worth the trouble. And believe me, I don’t claim to be a lighting guy. It just falls to me since I’m there and the “lighting guy” volunteers we get come in thinking they’re going to have 500 instruments to work with in a broadway theatre. Then they see 40 year old 6x9s and remember they have other commitments.

So is it my imagination or are the majority of the affordable LED fixtures just not as “punchy” as regular lamped fixtures? I’m still not sold on not buying a few S4 pars and gelling them rather than blow a wad on one led unit.
 
Since I work in the same space day in and day out and with the same groups of instruments, I have developed a sense of "what looks bright" and "what works for dark scenes". I only ever think of them in percentages though, since that's console-speak. I've never broken out a light meter, but I could see how one might be useful; but only to test for extreme "dips" in the wash without actors present. I never get too caught up in the numbers though (as others have said) since it's really all about how you see it through your own eyes. That being said, I hate when I forget to bring my glasses to tech. Things always look too dark without them!

A few slightly-related anecdotes:

One board op I have worked multiple times with can't stand it when I run the dimmers at 'weird' percentages (such as 53, 44 etc). Usually this happens when I was also the programmer, and set all my cues while looking at the stage and using encoders -- just rolling them up until it looks right. It never fails that by the time we are midway through tech week, all my intensities have been rounded to the nearest 5. The funny thing is, I never notice.

When I am the designer but not the programmer, things are usually rounded to the nearest 5th for the sake of the (usually inexperienced) programmer. I have one board op who likes to program any time she is on one of my shows who caught on to the fact that I was running front lights at 65% a good majority of the time. I threw her off last summer after pulling the instruments for a much-needed cleaning cycle as my new "magic number" had become 55. Cleaning those lenses made a heck of a difference! :)
 

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