leg fasteners questions

Stuart R

Member
Hi guys - So I'm going to build platform frames using 1x6's with a 3/4 ply lid, so actual thickness will be 6". For legs, I'm going to make a hog trough for each corner out of 1x4, fitting under the 1x frame so the frame rests on the hog trough. Snug in the inside corner will be a 2x2, glued and screwed to the hog trough and extending another 5" toward the lid. The combined thickness of the rail and the internal 2x2 will be 3/4" + 1-1/2" = 2-1/4".

Next question: fasteners. I'm thinking 1/4" x 3" carriage bolts with a matching washer and nut on the inside, two on one face and one on the other face (with its drilled hole between and perpendicular to the other two). Questions:
  1. Is a 1/4" x 3" carriage bolt the right fastener to use?
  2. Am I placing them correctly?
  3. Should the bolt hole be tight, or allow free passage of the bolt?
  4. Should the washer be a lock washer?
  5. Do people ever use permanently installed t-nuts on the legs instead of loose nuts and washers?
I'm planning to use a template to drill the holes so the legs and frames can be reused a bunch of times. How do I deal with the carriage bolt's rounded head protruding beyond the flat face of the frame? Do I countersink a larger hole to fit the carriage bolt head? Seems iffy with the frame being only 3/4" thick.

Thanks.
 
Hi guys - So I'm going to build platform frames using 1x6's with a 3/4 ply lid, so actual thickness will be 6". For legs, I'm going to make a hog trough for each corner out of 1x4, fitting under the 1x frame so the frame rests on the hog trough. Snug in the inside corner will be a 2x2, glued and screwed to the hog trough and extending another 5" toward the lid. The combined thickness of the rail and the internal 2x2 will be 3/4" + 1-1/2" = 2-1/4".

Next question: fasteners. I'm thinking 1/4" x 3" carriage bolts with a matching washer and nut on the inside, two on one face and one on the other face (with its drilled hole between and perpendicular to the other two). Questions:
  1. Is a 1/4" x 3" carriage bolt the right fastener to use?
  2. Am I placing them correctly?
  3. Should the bolt hole be tight, or allow free passage of the bolt?
  4. Should the washer be a lock washer?
  5. Do people ever use permanently installed t-nuts on the legs instead of loose nuts and washers?
I'm planning to use a template to drill the holes so the legs and frames can be reused a bunch of times. How do I deal with the carriage bolt's rounded head protruding beyond the flat face of the frame? Do I countersink a larger hole to fit the carriage bolt head? Seems iffy with the frame being only 3/4" thick.

Thanks.
Use a 1/4" flat head bolt instead of a carriage bolt and you can pull it flush with the outside framing. A plain washer is sufficient. Buy a hand nut driver or a socket for a drill or impact driver also.
 
I would rather see another piece of Hog trough inside the leg rather than just a 2x2.
 
The T-Nut is an interesting idea. My thought there is alignment would be a pita. The beauty of the bolt/nut is you can just drill another hole if it's not lined up the next time you use it.

If you do use carriage bolts, you don't need a washer on the box end side of the bolt. Not sure if that's what you were asking, but the little square end will sink into the wood and bind which lets you tighten it down. And it can be flush....if you tighten it enough 😅

Another trick with your hogstrough "extension". Make sure it's not quite 5 1/4" long, otherwise it will push up on the edge of your deck surface.
 
I'm always a big fan of screws when using compression legs the way you've described. Compression legs in general are way better than the standard 2x4 leg bolted to the inside of the frame. They make facing a breeze to attach. Anyway I second @Van with the hog trough within a hog trough. The 2x2 just doesn't have much surface/friction/lever area to it.
 
Carriage bolts are great until the square recess strips with multiple uses.
Torque washer.

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It probably goes without saying, but carriage bolts and T-nuts won't work together; there's no way to tighten them together since neither the head nor the nut can be turned once things start to get tight.

Has anybody ever use this sort of joint often used for table legs, where the leg is bolted through to a diagonal piece just inside of the corner and fits into a gap in the apron? Properly tightened down, they are quite sturdy. With the use of hanger bolts in the legs, you can eliminate all externally visible and protruding fasteners. Hanger bolts, if you're not familiar, are headless bolts with a wood screw thread on one end and a machine screw thread on the other; the wood screw part is driven into the wood by jamming a couple nuts together on the machine thread part and then using a wrench or socket to install the bolt. (The diagonal can just as easily be a block of wood rather than a metal hardware fitting as illustrated below. For a riser leg as described, I'd probably use at least two bolts spaced vertically.)

1635455094881.png
 
It probably goes without saying, but carriage bolts and T-nuts won't work together; there's no way to tighten them together since neither the head nor the nut can be turned once things start to get tight.

Has anybody ever use this sort of joint often used for table legs, where the leg is bolted through to a diagonal piece just inside of the corner and fits into a gap in the apron? Properly tightened down, they are quite sturdy. With the use of hanger bolts in the legs, you can eliminate all externally visible and protruding fasteners. Hanger bolts, if you're not familiar, are headless bolts with a wood screw thread on one end and a machine screw thread on the other; the wood screw part is driven into the wood by jamming a couple nuts together on the machine thread part and then using a wrench or socket to install the bolt. (The diagonal can just as easily be a block of wood rather than a metal hardware fitting as illustrated below. For a riser leg as described, I'd probably use at least two bolts spaced vertically.)

View attachment 22351
@Stuart R & @DrewE

Two points:
- 1; This looks very much like something from IKEA.
- 2; We have 32 chairs like this in our dining room used for three sittings of breakfast + 3 sittings of lunch then 3 sittings of dinner + various activities in between and in the evening.
Bottom Line: I've been here ~6 1/2 years and the wooden dining chairs are holding up very well only requiring occasional tightening.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 

Kinda sorta what you're talking about. The "II" version is closer. I've got these on a few of our platforms and they're ok.
 
It probably goes without saying, but carriage bolts and T-nuts won't work together; there's no way to tighten them together since neither the head nor the nut can be turned once things start to get tight.

Has anybody ever use this sort of joint often used for table legs, where the leg is bolted through to a diagonal piece just inside of the corner and fits into a gap in the apron? Properly tightened down, they are quite sturdy. With the use of hanger bolts in the legs, you can eliminate all externally visible and protruding fasteners. Hanger bolts, if you're not familiar, are headless bolts with a wood screw thread on one end and a machine screw thread on the other; the wood screw part is driven into the wood by jamming a couple nuts together on the machine thread part and then using a wrench or socket to install the bolt. (The diagonal can just as easily be a block of wood rather than a metal hardware fitting as illustrated below. For a riser leg as described, I'd probably use at least two bolts spaced vertically.)

View attachment 22351
I don't know much about furniture history, but it seems to me that this joining method arose from mass produced flat pack furniture. Its a very weak joint (compared to traditional joinery methods) in a super high stress area of the table/chair. Maybe the folks where Ron lives are a bit more gentle with their chairs, but my 3 small kids absolutely destroyed the very well cared for set of second-hand dining room chairs we bought in about 2 years.

I don't see how this could be useful on stage. Ease of install, sure. That's what they're designed for. Practical to fabricate? No. Most producing theaters have a stock set of platforms with some boxes of standard height legs nearby. Far easier to chop up a 2x4 to make new legs than it is to mill down a 4x4 to make it square, chamfer the edge, install the hanger bolt etc etc...
 
Doesn't anyone make parallels any more? A good set with 8", 16" 24" 36" and 48" height (say, dozen of each) in a couple of sizes you can assemble most any layout you want. Doesn't take up much storage space either.
 
Doesn't anyone make parallels any more? A good set with 8", 16" 24" 36" and 48" height (say, dozen of each) in a couple of sizes you can assemble most any layout you want. Doesn't take up much storage space either.
I haven't seen a stock set of parallels in a while. Maybe up front cost keeps people away from building 60 of them for stock...
 
Doesn't anyone make parallels any more? A good set with 8", 16" 24" 36" and 48" height (say, dozen of each) in a couple of sizes you can assemble most any layout you want. Doesn't take up much storage space either.
To me, at the end of the day, they are practical only as stock items i.e. you need to build choir risers, or an orchestra riser or something like that whereas a stock 4x8 platform can be legged to any height a parallel has to have a whole frame built o size. and a stack of 4x8's takes up much less wall space than a bunch of parallel frames that are 14' long by however high and each one taking up 5-6" of depth. Then you have to store the tops.
 
I haven't seen a stock set of parallels in a while. Maybe up front cost keeps people away from building 60 of them for stock...
When we opened the larger of our two soft-seaters, we built 8 each of 6", 1', 2', 3', & 4' then soon added pairs of ~60 degree corners, primarily for choral risers. Labor-wise, we found it cost less to fabricate the 6" and 1' by windowing 3/4" ply rather than using 1"x 3" & corner blocks.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
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