Apologies if this is covered elsewhere, but I have searched some old threads without much success. We have a conventional rig, and do occasionally rent moving heads for a major production, but the issue is programming time. For a production such as a guest set of rock bands, where busking is necessary, I see several consoles on the market offering built-in effects such as moving in a variety of shapes, changing color, etc. The issue I have is that when we have looked into this, I haven't seen any of these easily allowing the operator to tell the console where the movers are in physical space in relation to the stage, to keep the effect from flying around the audience, on the curtains, etc. We have many teenage operators-in-training, and it would be ideal to be able to show them an easy on-the-fly setup where we have previously defined the stage and fixture positions and just allow them to select from a pre-determined menu of effects/shapes as the show progresses. I understand that we can set all of these things up by hand, but it's not worth renting the fixtures for even an extra day or two on a limited budget. I'd rather add to a built-in set of effects with any time that we have. Can anyone recommend a console with these particular features? Ideally, we would use this in addition to our main console, just to control the movers. A PC-based solution is likely the least expensive, and used is also an option. Ideally we would spend under $2000 on the console (not including the computer, if PC-based). Some kind of visualizer would be nice to have, but not necessary. Some PC-based possibilities I have looked into, but can't tell if they have what require: Avolites Titan, Martin M-PC, Martin Light Jockey, Chamsys MagicQ, Jands Vista App, MA onPC... Thanks in advance for your assistance.
Control/Dimming Easy control of moving heads - patterns, etc.
- Thread starterjds10011
- Start date
ETC Express, of course... And yes, if necessary we could rent a console too, though it would be great to purchase a console to train the kids on in advance, and to pave the way for eventually purchasing a small number of movers to add to our inventory. If you have a console in mind (even if prohibitively expensive), which one?
ChamSysUSA
Member
Size masters would enable you to stop your effects from going wild, off into places they are not wanted. Our MagicQ consoles would seem a good fit for your needs. We have all that you are looking for and can be setup to provide a very similar programming experience for those more used to the theatrical console you mentioned. The software is free and you can set it up with one of our www.magicdmx.com dongles for around $20. If you have one of many other manufacturers USB to DMX devices you can use that too on the first universe.
That way you can form your own opinion
Regards
Phil
[email protected]
That way you can form your own opinion
Regards
Phil
[email protected]
Phil, does chamsys have a visualizer available, or at less something akin to "stage view" on the grandma?
That way they could preprogram without the fixtures.
I would recommend that anyone wanting to get their feet wet in moving lights try Chamsys. Most of the LDs I know that use it are European, but the market share seems to be growing in the US. And for $20, it's just stupid not to give it a shot.
That way they could preprogram without the fixtures.
I would recommend that anyone wanting to get their feet wet in moving lights try Chamsys. Most of the LDs I know that use it are European, but the market share seems to be growing in the US. And for $20, it's just stupid not to give it a shot.
ChamSysUSA
Member
We even have a HD media server for free - and the basic dongle, mentioned above, can be unplugged and the software restarted and used for another 5 hours at a time, on and on. Its there as a way to demo the software and see if it makes sense for your needs.
I've use the visualizer to train many LD's and it is a great too for you crew to be able to put on their own computer and use.
I've use the visualizer to train many LD's and it is a great too for you crew to be able to put on their own computer and use.
I've given it a try, along with a few of my techs. I'd like to consider all the options. Anyone have any opinions on any of the other software packages (Avolites Titan, Martin M-PC, Martin Light Jockey, Jands Vista App, MA onPC)?
It is a very different system, but take a look at ETC's nomad dongle. It uses ETC's EOS line software (or Congo, if you prefer that). It might make transitioning to a new board in the future easier, if you're comfortable with ETC. It isn't really my favorite for busking, but it does have quite a nice effects engine.
All of the programs you mention are top notch. It comes down to what you're comfortable with. Chamsys has the largest array of supported physical hardware, if you're looking to buy pieces. Avo's gear has almost as much functionality as chamsys, and you'll find their boards all over the place, if at some point you decide to rent a console. M-PC is very easy to use, and outputs one universe for free with a supported box, or through artnet. I'd stay away from light jockey, I think M-PC is better software (personal preference, and lack of experience with light jockey speaking). I've never used the vista app, and only seen a couple of consoles out in the wild, but it is great if you like to think in timeline editing, versus cue lists. MA will do everything, but will be fairly expensive to support with hardware.
In general, I like to steer people towards software that is supported by hardware consoles, because it gives you a clear way to progress, if you find yourself limited by a pc solution. It also means that the software itself has been road tested by all the consoles out there, so generally (but not always), it has fewer bugs.
All of the programs you mention are top notch. It comes down to what you're comfortable with. Chamsys has the largest array of supported physical hardware, if you're looking to buy pieces. Avo's gear has almost as much functionality as chamsys, and you'll find their boards all over the place, if at some point you decide to rent a console. M-PC is very easy to use, and outputs one universe for free with a supported box, or through artnet. I'd stay away from light jockey, I think M-PC is better software (personal preference, and lack of experience with light jockey speaking). I've never used the vista app, and only seen a couple of consoles out in the wild, but it is great if you like to think in timeline editing, versus cue lists. MA will do everything, but will be fairly expensive to support with hardware.
In general, I like to steer people towards software that is supported by hardware consoles, because it gives you a clear way to progress, if you find yourself limited by a pc solution. It also means that the software itself has been road tested by all the consoles out there, so generally (but not always), it has fewer bugs.
LightingGuy89
Member
Almost all of these consoles/softwares mentioned here allow you to define the "size" of the chosen effect on each desired attribute in some way or another. Some of the consoles will give you more on-the-fly flexibility (MA2, Chamsys, HOG4) with putting the size of an effect as an assignable Size Master to a fader; others require you to define the size in the programming stage and then recall it via an effect palette, cue or scene. the Eos/Nomad option can be done on the fly in a live environment, but requires some knowledge of how the console interprets commands, and in my shows I have created some extensive macros and custom views to be able to do this quickly.
Jay Ashworth
Well-Known Member
With MA2 you can create effects using presets as your "high and Low" values, or you can create them using a range of values, like 0-100. They are referred to as "absolute" and "relative" effects.
For example: you want a pan sine wave movement from one side of the stage to the other, but you do not want the lights to hit the legs. you would create 2 position presets, one with all the lights focused stage right, as far off stage as possible without hitting the legs, and the second preset the same way for stage left. Now in the effect editor, you can use those presets as you high and low values. Your pan effect will stat and stop at those position presets.
Relative effects will move the same size relative to your current position.
The same method is really slick for color effects too.
The master fader on any effect also controls its size. You can assign anything to the fader though, like size, speed, etc, also you can assign multiple fader to control different things in an effect, or assign them in special masters. Like putting all movement effects on "speed master 1" and all color effects on "speed master 2"
The MA2 is the best choice(imo) for punting a rock show, or not-so-organized corporate event, It is also great for single stack theater shows, but dose not have nearly the presence in theater that ETC does, though it dominates the music industry.
Quite frankly, I wholeheartedly believe that The MA2 is the best lighting desk on the planet, and few who have used multiple brands extensively will disagree, but it is also the most expensive. There are cheaper MA options, and the published MSRP is quite high compared to street price.
If you want to try MA, and I think you should, MA2 Has an onPC version and a pretty good visualizer for free. There is a learning curve with MA, but tutorial videos on youtube are abundant. once a punt page if built, anyone can run the console.
A two port node should be really cheap to rent(and between $1-2k to buy) and you can use one port as your output, and the other as a input, so you can use your express as a playback wing(DMX Remote) for the MA. Its actually really easy, and you can probably leave all of your conventionals on the express too, if you are more comfortable with that.
ONE CAVEAT- onPC MUST be run on a dedicated graphics card, this means a graphics processor that does not share system memory. It may work okay on some integrated machines, but usually not stable and the screen had drawing glitches. The visualizer ironically CAN run on an integrated graphics system, but frame rates go down quickly with more than a few fixtures.
For example: you want a pan sine wave movement from one side of the stage to the other, but you do not want the lights to hit the legs. you would create 2 position presets, one with all the lights focused stage right, as far off stage as possible without hitting the legs, and the second preset the same way for stage left. Now in the effect editor, you can use those presets as you high and low values. Your pan effect will stat and stop at those position presets.
Relative effects will move the same size relative to your current position.
The same method is really slick for color effects too.
The master fader on any effect also controls its size. You can assign anything to the fader though, like size, speed, etc, also you can assign multiple fader to control different things in an effect, or assign them in special masters. Like putting all movement effects on "speed master 1" and all color effects on "speed master 2"
The MA2 is the best choice(imo) for punting a rock show, or not-so-organized corporate event, It is also great for single stack theater shows, but dose not have nearly the presence in theater that ETC does, though it dominates the music industry.
Quite frankly, I wholeheartedly believe that The MA2 is the best lighting desk on the planet, and few who have used multiple brands extensively will disagree, but it is also the most expensive. There are cheaper MA options, and the published MSRP is quite high compared to street price.
If you want to try MA, and I think you should, MA2 Has an onPC version and a pretty good visualizer for free. There is a learning curve with MA, but tutorial videos on youtube are abundant. once a punt page if built, anyone can run the console.
A two port node should be really cheap to rent(and between $1-2k to buy) and you can use one port as your output, and the other as a input, so you can use your express as a playback wing(DMX Remote) for the MA. Its actually really easy, and you can probably leave all of your conventionals on the express too, if you are more comfortable with that.
ONE CAVEAT- onPC MUST be run on a dedicated graphics card, this means a graphics processor that does not share system memory. It may work okay on some integrated machines, but usually not stable and the screen had drawing glitches. The visualizer ironically CAN run on an integrated graphics system, but frame rates go down quickly with more than a few fixtures.
Also, a midi controller is pretty easy to setup for playback, and a touch screen or even just an ipad running the MA remote app, gives pretty good control of encoders.
Encoders are the only part of the console that cannot be externally controlled via DMX, MIDI, etc.
I do think though, that the Express as a DMX remote would be the most stream lined setup, and that's more faders available than any MA user had ever fathomed using.
Encoders are the only part of the console that cannot be externally controlled via DMX, MIDI, etc.
I do think though, that the Express as a DMX remote would be the most stream lined setup, and that's more faders available than any MA user had ever fathomed using.
LightingGuy89
Member
Agreed.. Though I've overcome this before by creating two separate effects and assigning a lets say PAN size master, then a TILT size master to my effects and adjust accordingly.
Not sure if it is allowed to revive one's own thread... I assume things have progressed since 2014. Does EOS (or something else) do this effectively and readily now? To recap, the question was about using a variety of premade (or very easily made) effects with a mover, but having the ability to easily define the dimensions of the stage so the effects stay on the stage (without having to laboriously modify the effects). The goal is to let teen operators do visually interesting things while busking (e.g. for a one-off music performance).
LightingGuy89
Member
Absolute effects on Eos will accomplish this.
Would you mind explaining or linking to an explanation? Thanks.
