Specific 360Q Rebuild Questions (have done due diligence on searching these awesome threads)

JMBrowne

Member
Hey everyone, especially @ship. I've read about 35 pages of your rebuild manuals and have a few specific questions that I'll make brief:

We ordered 25 TP22's, Heycos, and extra bates connectors a few years ago. And 3/8 Insultherm sleeving on a spool. I'm sorry to say I'm just reaching enough crispy pins to do this job.

The Insultherm is too thick. Won't remotely fit into the Heycos and let you stuff some under the lamp holders. Threads on this multiple times mentioned that 200-250C rated fiberglass sleeve or techflex was just fine for whips. Do we need to re-order 650C sleeve? Also, what size? Is 1/4 just fine? We're not planning to run DMX through these whips too. Every 360Q is lamped at 575w.

The biggest thing that's worrying me is that my TP22's have rubber insulated 250C wires going right into the ceramic. Most of the pictures I've seen of yours have fiberglass there and I just took a whip apart that had 4" of fiberglass over each wire then what I assume was high temp heat shrink. We got our sockets from FC and none of their photos show fiberglass sleeved wires. Do we need to do this? What specs?

I think that's it for now. We are anxious to get this project moving and done and not go on standby again.
In other news I've never had more bench focused 360Q's in our space before and people are starting to be impressed. I'd like to give our beautiful old space the care and safety it deserves.
 
Everything is fine or easy enough to correct.


If crispy on on side, the same on the other be it lamp or stage pin plug. I'm sure you read about the "Virus one causes in putting a perfectly good lamp into a bad socket, or a bad lamp into a good socket." concept in your reading.

What TP-22 socket you bought is probably fine, just different brand or type than I would normally purchase. What seems like rubber is probably silicone. There are many types of TP-22 sockets on the market using SF-2 and other types of wire rated for 200c.
SF- Silicone 200°C. Fixture wire.
SF-1or 2- Silicone Rubber NMT, 392°F. “-1" is 18 Awg. 300v. “-2" is 16-18 Awg. 600v. Solid or seven stranded. Fixture wire. SF-2 is the normal wire to purchase, though a 575w fixture only requires the lower wattage. An Altman 360Q is rated for 750 Watts, so SF-2 wiring or below Teflon in 16ga wire is required.
16ga Type E, Teflon 200°C. is the other version of heat wire normally in use. It's a little thinner and normally will have fiberglass insulation added over it.

Normally the soft Silicone SF-2 insulation is is factory wrapped tight with fiberglass insulation, at other times, possibly in the case of Silicone or Teflon a Size #12 thicker fiberglass sleeving is pushed over the conductor and heat shrunk into place for added protection. There are a lot of TP-22 lamp sockets on the market, though less than there used to be. All depends on the brand and era, they are all rated for the fixture. I tend towards the ones with the added fiberglass sleeving or add it to my fixtures if not, but that's just a added safety thing.

Your 3/8 "Insultherm" sleeving should be black, 5/16" or #0 sized fiberglass sleeving. (Never heard of Insultherm sleeving before). So that's probably not going to fit too well into the Heyco strain relief used on a 360Q Leko if 3/8" described. I have seen a lot of 3/8" sleeving in use, could be forced... but best not to use.

Did you purchase the Heyco strain reliefs with the same part number printed on the ones removed, which normally are re-usable? I looked at my bin and it's 6P-4, though there might be in use other part numbers with similar numbers, just more letters added.

Did you purchase the Heyco strain relief pliers or are you using channel Loc's and or conduit pliers to insert? You don't have to use the strain relief pliers, and at times they need an extra effort to get in. Sometimes once you get the cord strain relief seated, it takes wrapping it's top in conduit pliers or ChannelLoc's, than pounding the pliers ends with a hammer to seat the strain relief. You can also pre-train the wire to the bending a Heyco will do to high temp (not as flexible wire.)

"Threads on this multiple times mentioned that 200-250C rated fiberglass sleeve or techflex was just fine for whips. Do we need to re-order 650C sleeve? Also, what size? Is 1/4 just fine? We're not planning to run DMX through these whips too. Every 360Q is lamped at 575w."

Not sure where you got this info, but 250c rated wire is often less flexible and more made for perminant installs. I use it at times for higher wattage fixtures or to simulate asbestos on antique museum pieces. Not to be used for a 360Q fixture whip. "TechFlex", I have never heard of it before as a term. Rockbestos and Tempflex I know of, and neither of which I would use on a 360Q. I use such high teperature wire on Studio Fresnes and other high wattage gear. Datta cable can if shielded can be run in the same fixture whip but in your case and or in the case of high temperature wiring, should not be used in the same whip anyway.

Probably mentioned in readng already, but refresher course anyway as longas on the subject. The 12ga ferrules that come with stage pin plugs are very important to use. But a 12ga ferrule that comes with the plug won't fit well with a 16ga wire. The wire is too thin to center itself inside the ferrule with that screw from the plug coming down on it. And that furrle is too thin in materal to without sufficient wire gauge prevent the screw from cutting thru it and defeating it's purpose.
Standards for where I work I set up in doing Stage Pin are as follows:
Strip 1.1/2" off the cable jacket, or cut the conductors out of the fiberglass sleeving to that length. 1.1/2" is a 2x4 in width for imagined width.
Cut 1/4" off the ground and neutral conductors. Than cut a further 1/4" off the ground. Fork out the conductors as they would fit in the plug in tips even. Strip off 5/16" to better yet 3/8" from each conductor, install the #16 insulated ferrle on it, and the #12 furrle over that. You could also insert a #14 furrle between the two, but for cost effectiveness, the combination of a #16 insulated furrle, inside the #12 that comes with the plug, is normally sufficient to ensure that the 8-32x1/4" brass coated screw will press down on the conductors without just cutting into their strands when tight.
Another Option is to strip almost double the strip length of the 16 ga. wire. Fold it in half and iinsert it into the 12ga. ferrule provided by the maker of the stage pin plug.
A note in terminating your fixture connection to it's plug amongst notes I could dictate all night on.
Hope it helps.
 
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I can't tell you how much detail like this means to those of us young guys trying to keep these arts alive.

Okay, our sockets say Osram 1000W. The white cable has no fiberglass and says "AWM 1E59 600V 250 (deg) C" Stranded.

I used 8" of good condition original Altman jacket into a 30" piece of the 3/8 Insultherm https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/insultherm-resin-coated-fiberglass-sleeve-38-dia-50-black

What heat rating should that sleeve have? Its primary purpose is to protect against incidental fixture contact. Anyone ever IR therm'ed a few fixture bodies? Maybe I should.....I like data.

The Heycos are the exact part number and I got them in just fine with the original stem of jacket with channel-locks but I'm already eyeing the Heyco pliers on Mcmaster. Someone on here mentioned they were only 30 but they're 95 now.
I tried to shove the sleeve as far under the lamp holder as I could while spreading the wires away from the screwy bits.

I just opened my Bates connector and while none of my ferrules are cut, they are not obviously not full enough. I almost doubled the conductor over last night and will definitely just go that route.

Is this approach, with the sleeving okay? I'm trying to keep the LEDS ARE THE TRUE LIGHT dogs away from my precious fleet of classics for as long as I can keep them safe but cost effective. Should I bind this eventually frayed end of the Insultherm with some fiberglass tape, and if so, what would you recommend?
 

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Yes I did send an assistant Shop Manager to Menards to purchase Checkered paint, by way of explaining and confusing her about the science in the ions of paint align in a similar way to how glasses with ionized lenses shade themselves. I have not sent anyone to some other goose chase. Such people are keyed in. I have not lately sent anyone to go to the basement of the complex without a basement yet... recently.
That was the best laugh I have add in a long while. I use to send younger sailors on similar goose chases. Partilcularly, they need to get the I-D-10-T form from the officer of the deck. Now, get off my lawn.
 
Hole puller and board stretcher. We even had an outline for it in the peg board for the bay sayers.
 
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Ya'll ever seen the crane operators in my other "real job" get a green-hand to tighten the really fine threads in a swivel hook? Then just take a video of this kid spinning the hook from the cab so he can't see you giggle. The good ones are when someone from the crew finally tells the poor kid he's being fucked with. He's been loosening it the whole time and needs to go back the other way :dance::dance::dance:

Or putting giving a guy on a barge a 4" pump to "pump out the spudwells so they don't rust up". Some of the newer real high IQ fellers will pump the whole ocean through that pocket and not notice the water isn't going down.
 
That was the best laugh I have add in a long while. I use to send younger sailors on similar goose chases. Partilcularly, they need to get the I-D-10-T form from the officer of the deck. Now, get off my lawn

"Go get me a metric adjustable wrench" was always fun to spring on the young ones,
 
Hole puller and board stretcher. We even had an outline for it in the peg board for the bay sayers.
Hole puller: Diameter, depth, or the deluxe model capable of both simultaneously?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
In Scouts it was sending the Tenderfoot to the quartermaster for a left (or right)-handed smoke shifter. In the restaurant biz it was sending the brand new wait staff to retrieve the pie stretcher. Can't run out of dessert!
 
@ship...I followed all of your advice about Bates connectors except my leads are 14 ga because they're the 1kw sockets. I gave the ferrule a slight squeeze to keep it on there but followed the Bates guide for torques. I got a lab in-lb torque wrench and set it for 13 in-lb (Bates says 12 but I didn't calibrate it). Here ya go. Is it the most gourmet stage pin connector assembled or can we take this to more of an extreme?

Or roast my Mitutoyos and Utica Boiler Co torque wrench...whichever. I'm still having fun.

The photometrics of my first test socket assembly were REALLY impressive. Post about that incoming. And no buzzy sounds from the fixture.
 

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That was the best laugh I have add in a long while. I use to send younger sailors on similar goose chases. Partilcularly, they need to get the I-D-10-T form from the officer of the deck. Now, get off my lawn.
done that myself in the miltary, and sent people for the gass pressure filler pump for mover lamps, sent them to see someone about getting X-part from the basement (slab warehouse), aluminum /glass magnets. I foget all of them over 24 years with the company.... I remember there was something about copper wire magnitizer or something like that, but I don't think I started it. I just sent that person asking for it onto another shop staff this new person should know. Frequently if this person was getting tired of visiting new people to meet, I would send them to the grumpy old man of the shop to get what they get and give him what what he needs. Overall benefit to the new person in meeting lots of key people to know.
 
14ga insulated ferrule with the 12ga atop it is how I do it for 14ga wire.
I need to just order some, I remember you mentioning them. Although care and the torque specs seemed to result in a tight terminal that wasn't in danger of being smashed.
Any tips for how to know when a lamp is totally seated? Or dealing with bent lamp holder plates?
I know I'm fighting old, free gear that's gotten poor TLC over the years but when I get these in good shape, damn do they look good.
 
done that myself in the miltary, and sent people for the gass pressure filler pump for mover lamps, sent them to see someone about getting X-part from the basement (slab warehouse), aluminum /glass magnets. I foget all of them over 24 years with the company.... I remember there was something about copper wire magnitizer or something like that, but I don't think I started it. I just sent that person asking for it onto another shop staff this new person should know. Frequently if this person was getting tired of visiting new people to meet, I would send them to the grumpy old man of the shop to get what they get and give him what what he needs. Overall benefit to the new person in meeting lots of key people to know.
I remember with some embarrassment the new part-timer I sent all those years ago to the basement to look for the "blikuitdeuker", that would be an apparatus to remove dents from food cans. She's been around the building, and ends with telling the boss she can't find it. He said, trying to hide his laughter, it's okay. He has it in the office next to the "plintentrap"(that should translate as stairs for skirting boards).
Next week she comes in, sees me and tells me she told her boyfriend. He had told her she been fooled. She had replied he was wrong, because the boss had said the apparatus stood in the office.
I'm affraid after thirty years she's still not aware her boyfriend was right...
 
done that myself in the miltary, and sent people for the gass pressure filler pump for mover lamps, sent them to see someone about getting X-part from the basement (slab warehouse), aluminum /glass magnets. I foget all of them over 24 years with the company.... I remember there was something about copper wire magnitizer or something like that, but I don't think I started it. I just sent that person asking for it onto another shop staff this new person should know. Frequently if this person was getting tired of visiting new people to meet, I would send them to the grumpy old man of the shop to get what they get and give him what what he needs. Overall benefit to the new person in meeting lots of key people to know.
Remember Brightwork stretcher?
 
I need to just order some, I remember you mentioning them. Although care and the torque specs seemed to result in a tight terminal that wasn't in danger of being smashed.
Any tips for how to know when a lamp is totally seated? Or dealing with bent lamp holder plates?
I know I'm fighting old, free gear that's gotten poor TLC over the years but when I get these in good shape, damn do they look good.
McMaster Carr is the easiest source. Note the 12ga. ferrule supplied with a plug is 0.37" in length, so you want to be slightly longer and cut the 14ga ferrule with your wire stripper once the wire is in.
I normally strip 1.5" of outer jacket, cut off the fillers, than cut 1/4" off neutral and ground. Than I cut another 1/4" of the ground. This with between 5/16" and 3/8" in stripping the insulation off conductors will provide a perfect strip length for the ferrule in cutting off the insulated ferrule, or any wire hanging out so as to fit into the socket. It will also provide for the modern Bates style plug a perfect fork shape. (Another topic on old school Union type connectors. What a already discussed topic for teaching that would be!) In not also getting into discussions of Edison, Stage or Twist Lock why done in the industry changing over the years.

Ah' stage pin, converting most of it in cable other than that in raw cable to other types of connector these days. Safe good plug dating back to very early in the last century or before.... Just most stuff is going 208v, and even if it is also rated for universal voltage stage pin is still going away. But PowerCon for a short stay in melting down... bad design was popular instead. And more popular PowerCon True 1 in losing their locking mechenisms causing total replacement, but at least they can interconnect as improvement over PowerCon. "Silly Americans, we don't find any such problems with our product." Not a quote, but at one point in discussion directly with Neutrik about the breaking of XLR male shell locking mechenisms discussion... I was told this in essense for this "rep" care about the problem.
Powercon' A (Blue) Plugs and receptacles frequently melt down. The True1 for more modern gear are less frequent in melting down, they just frequetly don't latch innitially without work at times, and loose their latch levers often.
Main selling point... weather resistant. I at leat note the anti-removal hooked part of old True 1 connectors is gone from the wider cable size new plugs at least... I used to remove those safety anti-accessing removal security rings anyway when wiring up the cable. Stupid idea in requiring even more tools so as to use a bad plug concept, even if True 1.
Main problem in stage pin is it's weather resistance I think. Overall the best plug type, though I did have to torque 60A and 100A stage pin plugs and cables before usage constantly have to torque wrench checked..
A 20A stage pin plug in issues has only really been the lack of ferrules or other bad choices in the person wiring the plug. Same as with any other choice for someone to wire the plug including IA or EA people doing so.

I have never torqued any at least 20A stage pin plugs. 1/4 turn past hand tight normally in teaching for 20A in concept, but subjective to one's tension initially which is a shop supervision thing in teaching. Overall, honestly see a lot more Powercon and True 1 lack of tension and indeed 10% from the factory problems with anything PowerCon and True 1 than I have ever seen in... about 30 years with stage pin plugs or connectors... Professionally speaking.
 
McMaster Carr is the easiest source. Note the 12ga. ferrule supplied with a plug is 0.37" in length, so you want to be slightly longer and cut the 14ga ferrule with your wire stripper once the wire is in.
I normally strip 1.5" of outer jacket, cut off the fillers, than cut 1/4" off neutral and ground. Than I cut another 1/4" of the ground. This with between 5/16" and 3/8" in stripping the insulation off conductors will provide a perfect strip length for the ferrule in cutting off the insulated ferrule, or any wire hanging out so as to fit into the socket. It will also provide for the modern Bates style plug a perfect fork shape. (Another topic on old school Union type connectors. What a already discussed topic for teaching that would be!) In not also getting into discussions of Edison, Stage or Twist Lock why done in the industry changing over the years.

Ah' stage pin, converting most of it in cable other than that in raw cable to other types of connector these days. Safe good plug dating back to very early in the last century or before.... Just most stuff is going 208v, and even if it is also rated for universal voltage stage pin is still going away. But PowerCon for a short stay in melting down... bad design was popular instead. And more popular PowerCon True 1 in losing their locking mechenisms causing total replacement, but at least they can interconnect as improvement over PowerCon. "Silly Americans, we don't find any such problems with our product." Not a quote, but at one point in discussion directly with Neutrik about the breaking of XLR male shell locking mechenisms discussion... I was told this in essense for this "rep" care about the problem.
Powercon' A (Blue) Plugs and receptacles frequently melt down. The True1 for more modern gear are less frequent in melting down, they just frequetly don't latch innitially without work at times, and loose their latch levers often.
Main selling point... weather resistant. I at leat note the anti-removal hooked part of old True 1 connectors is gone from the wider cable size new plugs at least... I used to remove those safety anti-accessing removal security rings anyway when wiring up the cable. Stupid idea in requiring even more tools so as to use a bad plug concept, even if True 1.
Main problem in stage pin is it's weather resistance I think. Overall the best plug type, though I did have to torque 60A and 100A stage pin plugs and cables before usage constantly have to torque wrench checked..
A 20A stage pin plug in issues has only really been the lack of ferrules or other bad choices in the person wiring the plug. Same as with any other choice for someone to wire the plug including IA or EA people doing so.

I have never torqued any at least 20A stage pin plugs. 1/4 turn past hand tight normally in teaching for 20A in concept, but subjective to one's tension initially which is a shop supervision thing in teaching. Overall, honestly see a lot more Powercon and True 1 lack of tension and indeed 10% from the factory problems with anything PowerCon and True 1 than I have ever seen in... about 30 years with stage pin plugs or connectors... Professionally speaking.
How's this? The neutral strip was a bit long, I need to get some length stop strippers when the next invoice gets paid, but the conductor was tight to the end of the hole as was the ferrule. Torqued to 13 in-lb, Bates says 12.

I was trying to follow your sequence.
 

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