220V needed from 110V supply

R

r8er4ever

Member
Hello,
As you may have noticed I'm new here, was browseing inet and some how ended up here. Seen some topics simular to mine, so figure can't hurt to ask. In my attempt to retire from auto repair, all that has transpired is that now I am still repairing auto's but from my home(20+ years you build a loyal customer base that refuse to let anyone else repair theyre cars...lol). So to make things a lil easyer on my back and knees, I purchased a 2Post 9K autolift. Now the lift needs 220V Single phase 25A max(@45 second duration). I have a normal 110V breakerbox/meterwhere the drop comes off the pole. And some how(was already here when bought house) I have 1-4prong plug in the garage that runs my 220V Mig welder just fine. But to splice off this plug is not a option(concrete driveways/trees ect prevent this). But to splice off the box is possable. So what I am needing to know, is it possable to some how use the 110V to get my single phase 220V to operate my lift. Had a electrician give a est of around 4K+(was talking bout he had to install a new box ect-seamed like he was giving me something and it didn't include a kiss). Now if there is a 220V plug already on the far side of garage it seams like it should be possable but not sure how to do it and keep single phase with voltage doubled. With the cost already for the lift and the concrete slab $$$ is tight so trying to save any penny I can after all I am RETIRED...lol So any :idea:suggestions:idea: here would be great. Here is a image(sorta) of my layout. OH, the lift has only 2 wire leads for imput voltage along with 1 ground(3 leads total).:confused::?::wall::stumped:
 

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r8er4ever said:
Hello,
As you may have noticed I'm new here, was browseing inet and some how ended up here. Seen some topics simular to mine, so figure can't hurt to ask. In my attempt to retire from auto repair, all that has transpired is that now I am still repairing auto's but from my home(20+ years you build a loyal customer base that refuse to let anyone else repair theyre cars...lol). So to make things a lil easyer on my back and knees, I purchased a 2Post 9K autolift. Now the lift needs 220V Single phase 25A max(@45 second duration). I have a normal 110V breakerbox/meterwhere the drop comes off the pole. And some how(was already here when bought house) I have 1-4prong plug in the garage that runs my 220V Mig welder just fine. But to splice off this plug is not a option(concrete driveways/trees ect prevent this). But to splice off the box is possable. So what I am needing to know, is it possable to some how use the 110V to get my single phase 220V to operate my lift. Had a electrician give a est of around 4K+(was talking bout he had to install a new box ect-seamed like he was giving me something and it didn't include a kiss). Now if there is a 220V plug already on the far side of garage it seams like it should be possable but not sure how to do it and keep single phase with voltage doubled. With the cost already for the lift and the concrete slab $$$ is tight so trying to save any penny I can after all I am RETIRED...lol So any :idea:suggestions:idea: here would be great. Here is a image(sorta) of my layout. OH, the lift has only 2 wire leads for imput voltage along with 1 ground(3 leads total).:confused::?::wall::stumped:
Click to expand...

Using a step-up transformer would double the current draw (in your case, to 50 amps) and transformers that size are not cheap. Best to use what is available.

$4,000 sounds a bit extreme. The lifts usually run off a 30 amp 240 volt circuit with no neutral. (220 to 240 is just the usual spread you see from one area to another.) Most of the MIGs I have seen run off a 30 amp 240 volt circuit. If this is the case, just have a qualified electrician make you up a 30 amp extension cord ( 10/3 type S or type SO ) with the same connectors and unplug the welder and plug in the lift when needed. If the welder is running off a 50 amp breaker, then your extension cord needs to be 6/3 even though the draw is no higher. (Gauge is set by the breaker size and length of run and a few other things.) If it is a small welder and running off a 20 amp circuit, chances are you could still use the 10/3 cable and run it ok. With an intermittent draw of 25 amps (45 seconds) most 20's will not drop. I have a friend who has a set of BendPak lifts with the same specs (25a), and has been running it off a 20 amp breaker for years. I would not drop the gauge down to 12/3 however as voltage drop becomes an issue with high-load motors, generally resulting in a higher current draw. (Note: The lift only takes 25 amps when loaded at full capacity. In other words, the heavier the car, the more power needed to lift it.)
 
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Yes ,it says ,with a 9K load it can draw up to 25Amps, so I have a blank 30Amp breaker already in box. So I think amps is not going to be a issue it's just doubling the voltage and keeping the phasing correct that has me confused as to how to wire. Because like you said Xformers are very costly. As far as splicing off the excisting 220 outlet short of cutting concrete or tearing into allot of sheetrock, IDK where or how that plug is wired in. It was there when I moved in. I am thinking maybe they had the dryer out there at one time(looks like a dryer plug). Is there any way to run 2 110V lines but keep it single phased?
 
r8er4ever said:
Yes ,it says ,with a 9K load it can draw up to 25Amps, so I have a blank 30Amp breaker already in box. So I think amps is not going to be a issue it's just doubling the voltage and keeping the phasing correct that has me confused as to how to wire. Because like you said Xformers are very costly. As far as splicing off the excisting 220 outlet short of cutting concrete or tearing into allot of sheetrock, IDK where or how that plug is wired in. It was there when I moved in. I am thinking maybe they had the dryer out there at one time(looks like a dryer plug). Is there any way to run 2 110V lines but keep it single phased?
Click to expand...

It would be very unusual for a home to be anything but single phase power. To answer the most basic question, the power comes in on three conductors (plus there is a ground conductor) Two of these are considered "hot" and the third is "Neutral." Between either of the "Hots" and the neutral, you will find 110 volts. Between the two hots you will find 220 volts. (Although the two hots are "out of phase" with each other, this is still considered single phase.) Control Booth has some regulations regarding what advice can be given out as we always want to keep the user safe and the forum does not want to end up liable.

A 220 volt breaker has two handles bound together. This is what you should find feeding the receptacle that your welder is plugged into. You said it was already there and is 4 blade. That makes it a NEMA 14-30 if it is 30 amps, or a NEMA 14-50 if it is 50 amps. These are commonly called a "Dryer receptacle" (30 amp) or a "Range receptacle" (50 amp.) Basically, they should be wired like this if installed correctly (Not all are!):
proxy.php

Picture credit: www.cornerhardware.com

My suggestion would still be an extension cord (as described in the first post) as you would not have to alter the building wiring. Unfortunately, I missed the "4" in your original post, so you would have to use 10/4 or 6/4 cable to keep in compliance, even though the 4th conductor would not actually be used by your lift. And make sure you have an electrician check the wiring on that existing receptacle. Chances are your MIG only runs off of three conductors (two hots and a ground.) But, if there are only two hots and a ground coming into that receptacle from your breaker box, you should have the plug on your welder and the wall receptacle changed to a NEMA 6-30 or 6-50 so no one expects there to be a neutral present.
You may want to price out that change anyhow and see how it compares to the increase in the cost of your extension cord, as neither the welder or the lift use a neutral.
 
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If the welder is coming from the same breaker panel then you know you have single phase. Many times guys will extend power to the garage but only take 110 to it. You could do the extension cable as suggested, or take a double pole breaker and hook a receptacle to it. The problem is have room for it, you didn't list have type or size panel. The reason for the 4k price tag might have been a panel upgrade and possibly a new feed. Try taking a picture and maybe it will clarify some questions.
What you can't do is just double two 110 circuits to get 240 because they will be the same phase.
 
So like in the pic above if I use the Red and Black W/copper ground I should be correct? making sure not to use the neutral
oh and forgot to metion that my welder has only a 3 prong plug which makes sense now cause it still fits into the 4-plug but doesn't use the botton hole .
 
For obvious reasons, we cannot recommend you do your own electrical work. Best to hire an electrician as you want to be up to code.

r8er4ever said:
oh and forgot to metion that my welder has only a 3 prong plug which makes sense now cause it still fits into the 4-plug but doesn't use the botton hole .
Click to expand...

Interesting. I wonder if that is a NEMA 14-30/50 with the fourth prong not installed.
 
Given your original description, and assuming you have space in the panel, it should be easy for an electrician to add a 220V outlet next to the panel. It should also be a *lot* cheaper than $4000.

It, however, does not sound like you have the experience to work in your panel safely, so I would recommend finding another electician to do the job. It is too easy to kill yourself, others, or burn down your house otherwise.
/mike
 
I would ask for a written proposal from the original electrician as well as from any other electrician you have quote the job. That way you know exactly what your getting for the money and you can be sure that your comparing apples to apples when comparing the prices. If it's simply adding an outlet then that shouldn't cost that much. The panel may be maxed out load wise or the wiring running to the panel may not be large enough to handle the additional load. That necessitates replacing at least that part of the system. Since you already have 220v in the garage, you can't have only a 110v line running to the garage. One thing to remember is that the cheapest way to accomplish the job may not be safe or code compliant. You are definately overthinking the one-phase/three-phase thing. Residential settings rarely have anything other than one-phase. When someone with a home shop needs three-phase power, most times they install a converter of one type or another. Pictures of the panel, ect. would be a big help.
 
Sorry about bad video but I am not George Lucas...lol
Hope this works
This is my box, plug on garage, power box on liftand type meter
[video=youtube_share;BfLV2PJxA9U]http://youtu.be/BfLV2PJxA9U[/video]
[video=youtube_share;wdbaJElzLFw]http://youtu.be/wdbaJElzLFw[/video]
[video=youtube_share;Rol8t_Ub_JU]http://youtu.be/Rol8t_Ub_JU[/video]
[video=youtube_share;kcjnbdxgZlY]http://youtu.be/kcjnbdxgZlY[/video]
 
Just saw you are planning on the lift being outside. The original electrician was probably planning on installing an outside receptacle by the lift fed by a buried line running to the garage panel. At least that's how I would do it.

I noticed in your video that you have 2 - 220v breakers in the panel, one on top and one on the bottom. Also, it appears to be a 100A panel which may or may not be able to handle any additional load.

I would investigate what the other 220v breaker goes to since you said that to your knowledge, your welder is the only 220v load in the building. The electrician would have looked at the breakers present in the panel and done a load calc assuming that all breakers present are used. If one of the 220v breakers is unused that may change the load calc to allow the lift to go onto the existing panel. Although that would negate the need to replace the panel I'd say your still looking at a $1000-2000 project, maybe more dependent on your location, to run a buried feed and install a outdoor receptacle.

I would also say to get a few quotes(you may have to pay for them), along with a written proposal for each of them. It may be that there are several different ways to accomplish this project and your current guy uses a much higher cost method than somebody else.
 
Just out of curiosity, have you had anyone meter your receptacle (in the last vid) to see what voltage is actually present between the various contacts? The reason I ask is that in your OP, you identify your service as 110. The pic of your breaker panel doesn't show the plate that identifies the service, i.e. Voltage, Amperage and phase. That should be clearly visible. The two breakers that have two handles tied together are intended for 220 service but, while very unlikely, could be mis-leading. The vid showing the box wiring is so blurry I really can't tell if there are 3 wires or 4, perhaps some younger eyes can see this better. There are 110vac welders and 220vac welder, as we all know. However, many single phase, 220vac welders will run off 110vac but will not produce full power.

If you do have 220vac available, AND the receptacle is properly wired for 220vac, then your best bet is to simply have made a simple extension cord with the appropriate Ga wire and the proper connectors at each end to mate with your existing receptacle at one end and your lift unit at the other. If you lift unit is wired to be fed from a hard wired source, then have your Licensed Electrician wire it with a UL approved, outdoor male plug, either panel mount in an enclosed box or other UL approved male connection.

If you do not have 220vac service, then you will need a transformer. If this is the case, have your Licensed Electrician install it and a proper receptacle at your box. Then, have him build the extension cord and whatever is needed at your lift. Either way, no conduit longer than 24", no concrete dug up, etc.
 
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1st olff the lift will be inclosed as soon as the concrete finishes curing and the wheather allows. Have a a 11/2 electrical PVC pipe already piped to the outside breaker box.And now knowing that the 30Amp SPDT(I guess you could call it) Breaker is a 220Volt breaker that has to be the one for the welder. willo turn it off in the morning and see. If it is that would kinda solve things because just need to wire it to there,kinda hard to operate the lift and the welder at same time(not enough hands...lol). Going to move the welder into the new shop anyways so was going to add a receptical by the lift anyways for it.
Also sorry for images but the box on the lift has a momentary switch that covers it to operate the up function and gravity brings it down after you release the locks. But the is 1 green/grnd wire 1 white and 1 black wire so 3 total. The red one in the picture is to ground the pump to the lift.

OK, was dieing to know so turned off the 30Amp breaker and yes it controls the 230Volt(checked with meter) receptical. And the power company meter says it is a 230Volt meter
 
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r8er4ever said:
.......And now knowing that the 30Amp SPDT(I guess you could call it) Breaker ........
Click to expand...

Actually Double Pole, Single Throw, DPST. Double throw means two "on" positions with off in the center. Single Pole would indicate a single hot with a second contact to feed whatever is down stream, like a light fixture, like any light switch in your house that is not a 3-way. If there is a third contact it is for ground. A 220 circuit has a breaker (pole) for each hot leg, tied together so that both will trip if either leg has a condition to cause a fault. The Neutral or ground should NEVER have a breaker.

Pole indicates the number of separate, independent, isolated circuits a switch can control. Throw indicates the number of "ON" positions a switch has. 3 or more positions are primarily slider switches or rotary switches.

Double throw switches are used for (among other things) reversing the direction of motors, choosing between two different lights or two different motors.
 
had the right concept just the wrong phrase..lol...but thanks.And thanks for the assistance everyone. I think if I just disconect the 3 leads going to the garage plug(cause wont need ,it in there any more) and run from that breaker to the lift should solve problem.
Then that will keep the wife of my arse because she wont have to park her car out in the snow anymore, when I have repairs in the garage...lol
 
Sorry to pull this old post up, but I'm in exactly the same position!!

Moved from the UK (240V) to Canada and my car lift is also 220V. I've tried a 3000w step up transformer as a quick solution but just causes the AC Contactor to chatter and spark. If you override it by pressing in the button in the middle of the Contractor the ramp starts to lift VERY slowly (unloaded, no car), but the power lamp dims and the multimeter shows 70v coming out of the bottom of the contactor to the motor (should be 240V). So guessing the 3000w unit is not enough (motor is 2.2kw).

We have two hots coming into the garage breaker board (i.e. suitable for 240v hook ups).

So, thinking maybe I could find a solution to just hook the ramp up direct to the breaker board and not have to rely on a step up transformer.

And this is the theoretical part that confuses me a bit! I've actually done quite a lot of electrical work in the UK, but nowhere near as much with 120v.

So, I understand each of the two live wires comes from either end of the transformer and they are combined to make 240v. Simple theory.

But what confuses me is can you actually join those two 120v circuits together??? I noted when installing a new well pump (240v) that it had two live wires and no neutral. So the two live wires go into the pump separately, so I assumed (maybe wrongly!!) the pump is able to use the feed from each 120V wire to make 240v but in a way that does not actually connect the two wires together, or at least does not allow the connected wiring to feed back out to the breaker board.

I thought this because that would effectively be the same as connecting the two live buses in the breaker board together physically, meaning everything on the board would be receiving 240v - which in theory does not seem good!

So likewise I'm under the impression that you cannot just connect the two lives together to make a single 240v feed??? As this would do exactly what I mentioned above, effectively joining both live buses together in the breaker board.

Am I getting the right or wrong end of the theoretical stick here? So a Canadian 240v appliance will have two separate incoming lives which it manges to use without ever joining them together, and of course in the UK (etc) it's just a single wire 240v. So, it would never be possible to make an appliance with a 240v single wire work using a 120V circuit just with wiring alone???

Can I get this ramp to work in Canada without needing some kind of step up transformer? If so, how?

Any and all help much appreciated!
 
Lion Heart said:
Sorry to pull this old post up, but I'm in exactly the same position!!

Moved from the UK (240V) to Canada and my car lift is also 220V. I've tried a 3000w step up transformer as a quick solution but just causes the AC Contactor to chatter and spark. If you override it by pressing in the button in the middle of the Contractor the ramp starts to lift VERY slowly (unloaded, no car), but the power lamp dims and the multimeter shows 70v coming out of the bottom of the contactor to the motor (should be 240V). So guessing the 3000w unit is not enough (motor is 2.2kw).

We have two hots coming into the garage breaker board (i.e. suitable for 240v hook ups).

So, thinking maybe I could find a solution to just hook the ramp up direct to the breaker board and not have to rely on a step up transformer.

And this is the theoretical part that confuses me a bit! I've actually done quite a lot of electrical work in the UK, but nowhere near as much with 120v.

So, I understand each of the two live wires comes from either end of the transformer and they are combined to make 240v. Simple theory.

But what confuses me is can you actually join those two 120v circuits together??? I noted when installing a new well pump (240v) that it had two live wires and no neutral. So the two live wires go into the pump separately, so I assumed (maybe wrongly!!) the pump is able to use the feed from each 120V wire to make 240v but in a way that does not actually connect the two wires together, or at least does not allow the connected wiring to feed back out to the breaker board.

I thought this because that would effectively be the same as connecting the two live buses in the breaker board together physically, meaning everything on the board would be receiving 240v - which in theory does not seem good!

So likewise I'm under the impression that you cannot just connect the two lives together to make a single 240v feed??? As this would do exactly what I mentioned above, effectively joining both live buses together in the breaker board.

Am I getting the right or wrong end of the theoretical stick here? So a Canadian 240v appliance will have two separate incoming lives which it manges to use without ever joining them together, and of course in the UK (etc) it's just a single wire 240v. So, it would never be possible to make an appliance with a 240v single wire work using a 120V circuit just with wiring alone???

Can I get this ramp to work in Canada without needing some kind of step up transformer? If so, how?

Any and all help much appreciated!
Click to expand...
@Lion Heart For examples, look at how your electric water heater, electric clothes drier, and some electric baseboard heaters are wired; typically with two pole / common trip circuit breakers. In Canada, one pole would typically be black, and the second pole red. Neutral will be white and ground green, bare, or in some cases green with a yellow stripe. Any REAL licensed electrician should be able to take care of this for you.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
If your house is wired the way things are in the US, there is a 240V center-tapped transformer out on the pole. The center tap is the neutral, so you have 240V between the hots and 120V from either hot to neutral. 120V circuits are wired from hot to neutral with a single-pole breaker in the hot. 240V circuits are wired hot to hot with a double-pole breaker. 240/120 devices (like a clothes dryer that uses 240 for the heater and 120 for the motor) are wired with a double pole breaker and a neutral.
/mike
 
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