2P&G/Stage Pin vs. Edison vs. Twist-Lock
- Thread starterlieperjp
- Start date
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
I believe its a more pure copper in the blades but don't quote me on it.
sent from my Droid incredible using tapatalk.
Sony
Active Member
As far as I know there is NO difference, the only reason there are two different Edison plugs for 15a and 20a connections is to prevent someone for plugging a 20a peice of equipment into a plug that is only protected by a 15a circuit breaker or fuse. This is because a piece of equipment that pulls 20 amps may still take a while to overload and trip a 15a thermal-magnetic circuit breaker. It could take long enough that if there were a poor connection somewhere in the circuit that a fire could start before the breaker actually trips. 15a circuits are much more common in homes than 20a circuits (outside of your kitchen and bathrooms) and therefore you need a way to prevent your average homeowner from plugging a 20a appliance into a 15a outlet. The prongs on the plug itself are no different other than the 90 degree rotation of the neutral prong.
In modern commercial buildings all wall receptacles are required to be a minimum of 20 amps so the difference between the two becomes pretty much pointless. This is why you can plug a 15a plug into a 20a receptacle but you cannot plug a 20a plug into a 15a receptacle. Because since nearly everything is wired with a 15a plug these days, only allowing a 20a plug in a 20a receptacle would require an ungodly amount of ether adapters or second receptacles in all buildings, driving up building costs.
Last edited:
Just like Monster Cables have better copper than standard cables and are thusly worth the 500% markup?
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
While I don't agree with monster cables being the costly things they are, they do however use a higher percentage of copper compared to other elements inside of the copper ore.
Not saying they do but thats the theory behind it.
This is a thread that had laid dormant for over a year...
No one calls IEC60309 connector by that name. They are Ceeform after one of the pioneering brands.
Available in various voltage ranges (which DO NOT intermate) and pin configurations.
A vastly superior connection system to many of the standard electrical arrangements used globally. (In my humble opinion of course)
Basically:
Yellow for single phase 115V nominal places
Blue for three phase 115V (200V), single phase 230V
Red for three phase 230V (400V)
No one calls IEC60309 connector by that name. They are Ceeform after one of the pioneering brands.
Available in various voltage ranges (which DO NOT intermate) and pin configurations.
A vastly superior connection system to many of the standard electrical arrangements used globally. (In my humble opinion of course)
Basically:
Yellow for single phase 115V nominal places
Blue for three phase 115V (200V), single phase 230V
Red for three phase 230V (400V)
DMXpro
Active Member
And the comment was made over 3 years ago... back when I used to commonly see Bandit gear. I have not seen a Bandit rig in years.
Why stage pin/Bates/2P+G connectors?
The 2P+G plug is the most commonly used theatrical connector in the United States. My question is: Why?
My understanding is that the 2P+G plug has supposed benfits for theaters, namely cost and durability (the pins being split to be able to be adjusted for wear, etc.). However, it is my opinion that this plug is also susceptible to the most number of problems.
Here's what I've come up with:
1. Up until the most recent styles, these connectors had very poor strain relief/clamping abilities.
2. The same adjustable pins that are supposed to provide long life and good connections make the plugs very vulnerable to problems from lack of maintenance (they seem to be fine if properly maintained, but are not foolproof like Edison and twist lock connectors)
3. Ugly and bulky, but that's just my opinion
4. Harder to obtain (you're not going to find them at hardware stores or most local parts houses)
5. Nonstandard shape and size causes problems with using standard electrical junction boxes and plates/covers.
I'm a big fan of the Edison plug, but I can understand some impracticalities with using them in theaters. The big issue is that you can plug anything into them, which is a mixed blessing. Anyone could plug a computer or something completely inappropriate into dimmer circuits without even knowing.
Then we have the L5-20. Why isn't this standard? Locking plugs are amazing, they won't fall out or get loose, you can't mistake them with an Edison, and the connectors generally grip the cable very well and are very durable. The only downside I'm aware of is cost.
I'm eager to hear your explanations and opinions. I'm just a youngun and a relative noob in the theater world, so I'd love to learn about this.
The 2P+G plug is the most commonly used theatrical connector in the United States. My question is: Why?
My understanding is that the 2P+G plug has supposed benfits for theaters, namely cost and durability (the pins being split to be able to be adjusted for wear, etc.). However, it is my opinion that this plug is also susceptible to the most number of problems.
Here's what I've come up with:
1. Up until the most recent styles, these connectors had very poor strain relief/clamping abilities.
2. The same adjustable pins that are supposed to provide long life and good connections make the plugs very vulnerable to problems from lack of maintenance (they seem to be fine if properly maintained, but are not foolproof like Edison and twist lock connectors)
3. Ugly and bulky, but that's just my opinion
4. Harder to obtain (you're not going to find them at hardware stores or most local parts houses)
5. Nonstandard shape and size causes problems with using standard electrical junction boxes and plates/covers.
I'm a big fan of the Edison plug, but I can understand some impracticalities with using them in theaters. The big issue is that you can plug anything into them, which is a mixed blessing. Anyone could plug a computer or something completely inappropriate into dimmer circuits without even knowing.
Then we have the L5-20. Why isn't this standard? Locking plugs are amazing, they won't fall out or get loose, you can't mistake them with an Edison, and the connectors generally grip the cable very well and are very durable. The only downside I'm aware of is cost.
I'm eager to hear your explanations and opinions. I'm just a youngun and a relative noob in the theater world, so I'd love to learn about this.
GoboMan
Active Member
My theatre is all Edison connections in our electrics system. Because of this, I have had to spend an extra bit of time when plotting lights for each show on power distribution and which lights can safely be paired into one dimmer. Many times, I have had to rearrange the dimmer modules in the Sensor racks to accommodate the way each different light plot is laid out. And despite these extra tasks, I have had many occurrences in which the breakers on some dimmer modules have tripped and I have had to figure out a new cabling/instrument orientation for the plot. Pretty frustrating at times, especially knowing that I probably wouldn't have to put up with these setbacks if everything was Stage Pin.
I have probably seen as many melted 2P&G connectors as I have 5-15's. The only reason I haven't seen as many melted locking connectors is that I encounter those far less often.
On the issue of contact: With 2P&G connectors, one is reliant upon the MALE connector to have the proper tension in its pins to ensure good contact. In Straight Blade and Locking connectors, we are reliant upon the FEMALE connector to have the proper spring tension in its contacts in order to make reliable contact. When a 2P&G starts to make poor contact, it's pins can be split, thus extending its service life. When an Edison or Locking receptacle loses tension, it is finished, and must be replaced. In my experiences, melted 2P&G's are far more often caused by loose wiring/improper termination that they are by poor contact. Edison & Twist connector failures, on the other hand, seem to be more often caused by poor contact tension, in addition to loose wires.
EVERY connector type, no matter the style, should be periodically inspected. This is just good practice. EVERY connector has a finite service life, nothing lasts forever.
As for strain relief, most store bought 5-15 connectors, especially the economically priced ones (the ones low budget institutions are most likely to purchase) DO NOT readily accept 12/3 SOOW. GOOD, heavy duty, 5-15 connectors cost almost as much as Locking connectors. Strain relief on 2R&G connectors is not a new thing, however, it has almost always been in the form of a reversible insert that is readily lost after the package has been opened, as opposed to the adjustable style on most Edison and Twist connectors. I have seen many examples of proper strain relief assemblies on the old Union square body connectors, but only when their original install was an an instrument whip instead of a cable.
So, your mileage may vary, these are just my experiences that have influenced my opinions.
On the issue of contact: With 2P&G connectors, one is reliant upon the MALE connector to have the proper tension in its pins to ensure good contact. In Straight Blade and Locking connectors, we are reliant upon the FEMALE connector to have the proper spring tension in its contacts in order to make reliable contact. When a 2P&G starts to make poor contact, it's pins can be split, thus extending its service life. When an Edison or Locking receptacle loses tension, it is finished, and must be replaced. In my experiences, melted 2P&G's are far more often caused by loose wiring/improper termination that they are by poor contact. Edison & Twist connector failures, on the other hand, seem to be more often caused by poor contact tension, in addition to loose wires.
EVERY connector type, no matter the style, should be periodically inspected. This is just good practice. EVERY connector has a finite service life, nothing lasts forever.
As for strain relief, most store bought 5-15 connectors, especially the economically priced ones (the ones low budget institutions are most likely to purchase) DO NOT readily accept 12/3 SOOW. GOOD, heavy duty, 5-15 connectors cost almost as much as Locking connectors. Strain relief on 2R&G connectors is not a new thing, however, it has almost always been in the form of a reversible insert that is readily lost after the package has been opened, as opposed to the adjustable style on most Edison and Twist connectors. I have seen many examples of proper strain relief assemblies on the old Union square body connectors, but only when their original install was an an instrument whip instead of a cable.
So, your mileage may vary, these are just my experiences that have influenced my opinions.
JD
Well-Known Member
Well, there are some advantages to 2P&G:
1) They are rated at 20 amps, so they can be used off a 2.4kw dimmer. (Standard Edison is rated at 15 amps and should not be used on a 2.4kw dimmer.)
2) The square shape makes it harder to trip and fall if you step on one.
3) It defines the system as "lighting" so it does not get confused with stage or audio power.
4) They seem to melt down less often then the L5-20
5) The pins CAN be re-sprung
Edison and twist lock connectors can and do lose tension but can not usually be fixed, thus burn. I am not solidly in any of the camps. When I did this professionally, I used 2P&G. Now that I do it as a retirement hobby, I use Edison, but all my dimmers are 1.2kw. Twist locks, IMHO are a waste of money for what you get. The actual area of contact is much smaller then the 2P&G connectors. I had a lot of bad luck in having them burn and melt. I was fussy about the 2P&G connectors and I never had one burn. On the down-side, they seem to me to be so "last century." When you look at the size of pins in Soco, you wonder if it is time for a new type of 3 pin power connector that is a lot smaller.
1) They are rated at 20 amps, so they can be used off a 2.4kw dimmer. (Standard Edison is rated at 15 amps and should not be used on a 2.4kw dimmer.)
2) The square shape makes it harder to trip and fall if you step on one.
3) It defines the system as "lighting" so it does not get confused with stage or audio power.
4) They seem to melt down less often then the L5-20
5) The pins CAN be re-sprung
Edison and twist lock connectors can and do lose tension but can not usually be fixed, thus burn. I am not solidly in any of the camps. When I did this professionally, I used 2P&G. Now that I do it as a retirement hobby, I use Edison, but all my dimmers are 1.2kw. Twist locks, IMHO are a waste of money for what you get. The actual area of contact is much smaller then the 2P&G connectors. I had a lot of bad luck in having them burn and melt. I was fussy about the 2P&G connectors and I never had one burn. On the down-side, they seem to me to be so "last century." When you look at the size of pins in Soco, you wonder if it is time for a new type of 3 pin power connector that is a lot smaller.
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
MPowers
Well-Known Member
There are a number of factors working here. The first is the connector on the individual lighting instrument. The next is the connector used on two-fers, jumpers and long runs of stage cable. Next in line is, of course, the permanently wired connection at the raceway or floor box or wall box that is in turn, hardwired to the actual dimmer. Last, but not least is history and the evolution of lighting equipment including dimmers and distribution.
When pin connectors were first introduced, dimmers were expensive, individually controlled, and one stage hand could only run 14 to 28 dimmers at most. The result was that dimmers were of large capacity and limited in number. To accommodate a show with different "Looks" and many instruments, loads to a dimmer were changed, plugged and unplugged several times during a show. The goal was that every dimmer was used in every cue. It was a waste of dimmers if one was not involved in a cue.
When the pin connector was first introduced and up through the 1950's, 2K instruments were common in FOH lighting as were 2K loads and larger, from cyc and strips as was often the case. The parallel blade Edison connector of that time was not nearly as robust as today. 15 amps was a real stretch code wise and practically, and most lacked even a rudimentary strain relief. Licensed electricians were taught to tie a "Union Knot" (underwriter's knot) with the two leads (no grounds on any equipment at the time!) to make a knot too large to pull through the opening in the connector body. The stage pin connector had better strain relief than any Edison connector of the time and 20 amps was no problem if well maintained.
Between about 1960 and 1980, most instruments evolved to 1K or less, with 500w, 750w and 1000w units as the most common units. At this time the cost of dimmers was still more than the cost of the copper to build "Patch Panels" and the common practice was to have many circuits for every dimmer, but nothing hard wired. The result was every dimmer (except in the case of "specials") had 2 to 4 instruments, or several strip/cyc units plugged to it. Dimmers were usually in two configurations, 3K or 6K-7K. The 3K to handle up to 4 750W units, the 6 or 7 K dimmers to handle massive strip/cyc loads or the occasional 5K stage lights that still showed up.
What this means for our discussion of connectors, is that average loads on connectors then, were larger as a rule than in today's world. Any given connector might be carrying a full 2k (4 x 500w) or frequently 2.25K (3 x 750w) load. The 2.25K load, while not really the best practice was very common. 3K loads were more common than most of us would like to admit.
Although DPC (Dimmer Per Circuit) technology was emerging in the early 80's, it wasn't until the early 90's and the introduction of the 575w lamp that it really became a practical and economical norm on a large scale. Before this, a common stage layout might be 50-60 dimmers for 300 to 400 circuits and a HUGE, EXPENSIVE, patch panel. Next step was DPC with 96 or 192 circuits but maybe only 2/3 or 3/4 of the dimmer bank populated, a practice that is unfortunetly still practiced today in what I personally believe is false economy, but YMMV.
Now, back up a bit and it becomes obvious that until recently (relatively speaking,..... within the last 20 years) two-fers, extension cables, raceways, floor pockets or wall boxes all needed to handle a full 20 amps on a regular basis. The standard, parallel blade, U-ground, Edison plug simply did not have that capability. I do not really know when Edison plugs became available that could handle SO cable, but that was also a problem until the last 15 or 20 years. Even in today's world, why have a 2k or 20 amp dimmer if it only has a single 15amp receptacle to plug into? That can be partially resolved by making the final raceway or wall outlet a 20amp Edison which will accept either a 15amp parallel blade or a 20amp "T" blade Edison plug. If that is done, then every extension cable and twofer must have a "T" blade male plug to stay in code within your system and be capable of plugging in everywhere. This will in turn mean that all your extensions and twofers would have to have a female "T" blade body to accept the "T" blade plugs. In a fully compliant system, the individual instruments would be the only things with a parallel blade plug.
So, in a very loose nut shell, that is why stage pin connectors evolved into the, IMHO, most common, best for the purpose, connector we use. It will remain the most common for the time being as long as it is the most robust, easiest to service, most tamper proof (ever seen a pin connector with the ground cut off? I have seen twist locks with the ground missing, can't imagine why but.....?!!) and it will easily handle the electrical load we ask it to, i.e. 20 amps (and more but I never did and I'm looking the other way....!.) I personally "Hate" the 20amp twist lock. It is bulky, expensive, harder to wire, doesn't match up with rental or road company gear or most concert road rigs. Early 20amp twist locks were also brittle, larger than today and a real PITA. In rental use the twist lock pins get bent and twisted A LOT and while fairly easy to straighten, it is a a pain and a time waster in the middle of a tight load-in. Parallel blade, U-ground Edison plugs can't handle, by code, more than 15amps. and even now, many models can't handle SO for twofers or extensions.
Last edited by a moderator:
Esoteric
Well-Known Member
JD
Well-Known Member
When bought from the right vendor, even good quality 2P&Gs are surprisingly cheap. I walk into Home Depot and see Hubble female Edisons going for $15 and think "Why?" Just look at the amount of brass involved in making one vs the other.
